apuszczalowski Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Rypken was a very good player and worthy of the Hall, but a unanamous decision in his first year of eligability? that might be a stretch Guys like Aaron, Ruth, etc are guys that might be more deserving of that kind of honor. Some more recent ones would be Ryan, Maybe Clemons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lv-Bills Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Honus Wagner, Arky Vaughan, Dan Brouthers, and Robin Yount I was gonna mention three of these, but obviously Ripken lovers would never give credence to this. Wagner is even considered by some, the best player in the history of the game, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Are you guys serious? I ask for two better offensive Shortstops than Ripken and you collectively come up with a second baseman (who wasn't even better) and then turn Ripken into a third baseman? Come on. He hit for as much or more power than any SS that preceded him. Teams think differently about what they need from that position ever since he played it. He was vastly underrated defensively and yes he had that streak thing. He is not on my personal list of 100 favorite baseball players but I know a Hall of Famer when I see one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lv-Bills Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Are you guys serious? I ask for two better offensive Shortstops than Ripken and you collectively come up with a second baseman (who wasn't even better) and then turn Ripken into a third baseman? Come on. He hit for as much or more power than any SS that preceded him. Teams think differently about what they need from that position ever since he played it. He was vastly underrated defensively and yes he had that streak thing. He is not on my personal list of 100 favorite baseball players but I know a Hall of Famer when I see one. Take the streak away........................and we are talking one of the weakest inductees of all time. I made a mistake.....I thought you asked for another better defensive player than Ripken, thus I mentioned Maz never getting in on defense alone. But yeah man, Honus Wagner was by far, the best shortstop to ever play the game. Ripken might have been the best hitting shortstop in a time that SS sucked at the plate. Big Deal. It's kinda like saying the Bills were the best football team ever in the AFC when the confernece was busy losing 10 or so Super Bowls in a row in the 90's. It really doens't say much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lv-Bills Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Are you guys serious? I ask for two better offensive Shortstops than Ripken and you collectively come up with a second baseman (who wasn't even better) and then turn Ripken into a third baseman? Come on. He hit for as much or more power than any SS that preceded him. Teams think differently about what they need from that position ever since he played it. He was vastly underrated defensively and yes he had that streak thing. He is not on my personal list of 100 favorite baseball players but I know a Hall of Famer when I see one. Oh, and Ripken was a third baseman. He was drafted as a third baseman, and played there before quickly moving over to SS. So, there could be where the power numbers came from. He wasn't slotted as a SS originally. To his credit though, he was able to move over there and play SS above average, with very average range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zona Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 While I wont get into the debate of whether Jr. belongs in the hall or not, I will mention the reason ONE of the voters didnt vote him in. Mike and Mike discussed it this morning. They said some writer in Chicago turned in his Ballot completely blank. He said it was a moral objection because of McGuire and the steroid era. If he wont vote for Mcguire because of his alleged usage, than he cant vote for ANY player of the so called Steroid Era because of the potential for embarassment if it came out later that Gwynn or Jr. had used Steroids as well. "how come Jr. is in the Hall and McGuire isnt? they both used!.....That arguement Just posting what the guys were saying on the radio this morning. Dont shot the messenger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Take the streak away........................and we are talking one of the weakest inductees of all time. I made a mistake.....I thought you asked for another better defensive player than Ripken, thus I mentioned Maz never getting in on defense alone. But yeah man, Honus Wagner was by far, the best shortstop to ever play the game. Ripken might have been the best hitting shortstop in a time that SS sucked at the plate. Big Deal. It's kinda like saying the Bills were the best football team ever in the AFC when they were losing 10 or so Super Bowls in a row in the 90's. In a time that all Shortstops sucked hitting? I asked about the entire history of baseball before Ripken arrived. So all shortstops in baseball history sucked at hitting until Ripken but he didn't have a hall of fame impact on baseball? Are you saying both of those things? Let's get this clear. I'm not even a Ripken fan but I'm a baseball fan. My favortie all time player is Tony Gwynn. There are 8 people out there who did not think Ripken should be in the Hall. There are 13 out there that think Gwynn doesn't pass muster. These people all report on baseball for a living and they all used poor judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Oh, and Ripken was a third baseman. He was drafted as a third baseman, and played there before quickly moving over to SS. So, there could be where the power numbers came from. He wasn't slotted as a SS originally. To his credit though, he was able to move over there and play SS above average, with very average range. Ripken played 14 consecutive seasons without playing a position other than shortstop. Why on earth would he be considered a third baseman for Hall of Fame purposes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeLuca1967 Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Are you guys serious? I ask for two better offensive Shortstops than Ripken and you collectively come up with a second baseman (who wasn't even better) and then turn Ripken into a third baseman? Come on. He hit for as much or more power than any SS that preceded him. Teams think differently about what they need from that position ever since he played it. He was vastly underrated defensively and yes he had that streak thing. He is not on my personal list of 100 favorite baseball players but I know a Hall of Famer when I see one. He played 5 1/2 years at third and 900 of his 3100 hits came while playing third. Also, He couldn't hold a candle to Alan Trammell or Tony Fernandez with the leather and that's just in the AL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syhuang Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 In a time that all Shortstops sucked hitting? I asked about the entire history of baseball before Ripken arrived. So all shortstops in baseball history sucked at hitting until Ripken but he didn't have a hall of fame impact on baseball? Are you saying both of those things? Honus Wagner and Arky Vaughan are definitely better offensive shortstops than Ripken. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 While I wont get into the debate of whether Jr. belongs in the hall or not, I will mention the reason ONE of the voters didnt vote him in. Mike and Mike discussed it this morning. They said some writer in Chicago turned in his Ballot completely blank. He said it was a moral objection because of McGuire and the steroid era. If he wont vote for Mcguire because of his alleged usage, than he cant vote for ANY player of the so called Steroid Era because of the potential for embarassment if it came out later that Gwynn or Jr. had used Steroids as well. "how come Jr. is in the Hall and McGuire isnt? they both used!.....That arguement Just posting what the guys were saying on the radio this morning. Dont shot the messenger. No reason to shoot you but that guy is deranged. It is a lame excuse because there is no indication whatsoever that either ever used. It would be exactly like refusing to vote for any player that played baseball in 1919. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Honus Wagner and Arky Vaughan are definitely better offensive shortstops than Ripken. End of story. Because you type the words end of story does not make it true. When using Vaughn, by what objective measurement did you arrive at your decision? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lv-Bills Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 In a time that all Shortstops sucked hitting? I asked about the entire history of baseball before Ripken arrived. So all shortstops in baseball history sucked at hitting until Ripken but he didn't have a hall of fame impact on baseball? Are you saying both of those things? Let's get this clear. I'm not even a Ripken fan but I'm a baseball fan. My favortie all time player is Tony Gwynn. There are 8 people out there who did not think Ripken should be in the Hall. There are 13 out there that think Gwynn doesn't pass muster. These people all report on baseball for a living and they all used poor judgement. Not at all. Ripken should be in the hall, because he did do some things special. But he is also a media driven darling, for doing something that is a bit worthless really. Big deal, he played in all of those games in a row. I mean, that really didn't do anything to change or impact his team or the game of baseball. Period. He just played every day. Again, he was a .274 hitter that averaged about 20 HR's and 80 RBI and played every day. Without the streak.....that isn't all that impressive. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lv-Bills Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Because you type the words end of story does not make it true. When using Vaughn, by what objective measurement did you arrive at your decision? Gimmie a break, you are starting to sound like you know nothing about baseball now. Wagner and Vaughn are two of the best players EVER, and in any position. And again, Wagner is considered, by some, the best baseball player ever. And yes, that is end of story on Wagner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syhuang Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Because you type the words end of story does not make it true. When using Vaughn, by what objective measurement did you arrive at your decision? I don't want to waste time to make this a baseball statistics class. So here is the hint: There're statistics used to compare players in different era, for example, VORP, OPS+, and win shares. In your case, you can try OPS+ or *OPS+ for offensive power. Again, end of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Gimmie a break, you are starting to sound like you know nothing about baseball now. Wagner and Vaughn are two of the best players EVER, and in any position. And again, Wagner is considered, by some, the best baseball player ever. And yes, that is end of story on Wagner. Yet my question was about Vaughn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lv-Bills Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Ripken played 14 consecutive seasons without playing a position other than shortstop. Why on earth would he be considered a third baseman for Hall of Fame purposes? Am I missing something? Did I say he should be considered a 3 bagger? Do you even read posts. He was DRAFTED or brought through as a third baseman. So, considering he was thought of initially as a third baseman, he was probably drafted with some power in mind. The fact that he made the move to SS, made him stick out a little bit in that era. Again, that is to his credit, but it also doesn't make his numbers any more impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lv-Bills Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Yet my question was about Vaughn. LOL. Read a baseball book or some history on the game and you'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syhuang Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Yet my question was about Vaughn. Arky Vaughan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimBob2232 Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Wow, what a thread. First of all, I dont think ANYONE here is saying Cal Jr. doesnt belong in the Hall. Some speculate without the streak, he wouldnt be in the hall, but the streak exists, and thus everyone here seems to be in agreement. On the Unanimous thing. You have to understand the guys voting for the hall. Or better yet, understand that you cant understand them. Baseball is a sport of tradition if nothing else. Some voters feel that if Ted Williams, Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron and Ty Cobb cant be a unanimous HOFer, certainally someone much more marginal (Ripken/Gwynn), shouldnt be either. And thus they choose not to vote ANY player in the first try. Others submitted blank ballots as a protest to the steroid era. Still others voted for Bobby Bonilla, Tony Fernandez and Jay Buhner...go figure. So, there is little to be angry about here (except for the 6 fools who voted for canseco). Ripken and Gwynn are both HOFers. Neither is worthy of being the first player unanimously selected. I think all is well today in the baseball world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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