Fan in San Diego Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 solved this problem ? Why doesn't RW pursue the same path that led Lamar Hunt to successfully pass the franchise to his heirs. RW you need to check this option out !
In space no one can hear Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 It has not been confirmed that Ralph's heirs want the team.
agilen Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 I would think that Ralph has already taken the appropriate steps for this...what makes you think he hasn't?
MadBuffaloDisease Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 If the death tax continues to be eliminated for the 2010 year, I can see Ralph or his wife (if he dies, and she pays no estate tax), passing it on to his daughter then. But the odds of the estate tax still being eliminated for that year are small.
Tom Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 When Raph passes on, I'll marry his wife...... Please,
Whitner20 Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 I believe i heard on radio (i believe leo roth said it in an interview) that Wilson has told his doughter she will have control of the team once he dies and Wilson said she can do whatever makes her happy.... and shes said she would sell it to top bidder. Maybe someone can confirm?
Mickey Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 If the death tax continues to be eliminated for the 2010 year, I can see Ralph or his wife (if he dies, and she pays no estate tax), passing it on to his daughter then. But the odds of the estate tax still being eliminated for that year are small. I'm not sure the inheritance tax is really much of a factor in the decisions being made by the Wilson family members. The fact is that this franchise as an asset has a huge value, not because it is generating buckets of cash where it is now, in Buffalo. Its huge value and corresponding huge inheritance tax is based on its market value. That value is massive because of the cash it can generate somewhere else. Simply moving will raise an ubelievable amount of money as whatever city that wants this team bad enough will make whatever deal it takes with a post-Ralph owner. Even if there were no taxes, the heirs of Ralph Wilson would make way more money from selling the team than they will make in year to year operational income. If you had a choice between selling the team for 750 million or keeping it and cleraing 3 or 4 million per year, what would you do? The problem is not tax law, it is the inescapable fact that this team, this asset, can generate waaaaaaay more cash in another city than it can in Buffalo. Because it can, buyers will be willing to pay boatloads of cash for this team and that sale will generate far more income for the heirs than would keeping the team. Probably the best alternative to selling the team for the heirs is to keep it and move it to a more profitable location themselves. The inescapable logic of math is unfortunately going to cost us this team eventually.
MadBuffaloDisease Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 Wait, I thought that Ralph makes $30M a year? Just ask Forbes. And the lack of inheritance tax at least allows his wife/daughter enough time to find a suitable replacement owner who would be willing to keep the team in Buffalo. At least in theory. I would HOPE that his daughter isn't solely motivated by money.
TNBillFan Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 I've been a Bills fan since the very beginning and I appreciate all that Mr. Wilson has done to keep this team in Buffalo; however, the Wilson family is not a Buffalo family and unless someone moves to buy this team while Mr. Wilson is alive, it is nearly impossible for me to believe that the team won't end up elsewhere within the next few years. It's all about the money. If someone wants to commit to keeping the Bills in Buffalo, the window of opportunity is closing. I could imagine Mr. Wilson selling below top dollar to keep the team where it belongs, but why would we ever think his family would do the same?
BuffaloBud Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 What did he do? If I remember correctly, L Hunt created a trust so that the team would stay in the family. Not sure of the tax implications with this.
ganesh Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 The problem is not tax law, it is the inescapable fact that this team, this asset, can generate waaaaaaay more cash in another city than it can in Buffalo. This is where your logic falls apart.....There are no big cities other than LA that can generate that "waaaaay" more cash that you are talking about....Moving the team to San Antonio will generate a few million more than what they can get in Buffalo....You also have to remember that the Bills have die hard fans in Buffalo and fill up the stadium (most of the time) even during down years.....I wouldn't bet on these NEW cities to be able to generate that kind of cash.....Those kind of cities already have NFL franchises.
BuffaloRebound Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 It disturbs me when Ralph makes no mention of how much the fans are part of his franchise and how much fans like the Bills faithful have meant to the popularity of the game and hence why his $25,000 investment is now worth over $600 million. It is always dangerous to make judgments about what other people should do with their money, but to pretend like he deserves all that money for himself and his heirs without a care for generations of Western NY Bills fans, if that is indeed his mindframe, him and his heirs can take that $600 million and stick it up their @ss.
TNBillFan Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 It disturbs me when Ralph makes no mention of how much the fans are part of his franchise and how much fans like the Bills faithful have meant to the popularity of the game and hence why his $25,000 investment is now worth over $600 million. It is always dangerous to make judgments about what other people should do with their money, but to pretend like he deserves all that money for himself and his heirs without a care for generations of Western NY Bills fans, if that is indeed his mindframe, him and his heirs can take that $600 million and stick it up their @ss. Come on. I want the Bills to stay in Buffalo forever, but it is unreasonable to expect any business person and his/her family to eat millions of dollars in lost revenue simply to make Bills fans happy. Bills fans are fantastic, loyal, borderline insane, etc., but not one fan has ever risked his own money to invest in the success of the franchise. Bills fans have supported an entertainment product with more loyalty than nearly any fan-base I can imagine---but not one of the fans have put their own money at risk to operate the Bills. You must be fairly young because you refer to a $25,000 investment in a totally unproven product in the early '60s as if it was chump change. Back then---for this investment---it was viewed as burning paper money by a lot of potential investors. Note, too, that nobody in Buffalo put up that cash. In the early years, both the Buffalo franchise and the entire AFL came extremely close to collapsing and, later, the Buffalo franchise was stalked by outsiders for relocation multiple times over the decades. Ralph Wilson could have cashed out for a profit numerous times, but he didn't. He also could have moved the team, just like owners in St. Louis, LA, Baltimore, Oakland, and Cleveland---but again he stayed loyal to Buffalo. Moreover, you fail to realize/acknowledge or appreciate how much additional money---his own money---- this guy has tied up in the club during the intervening 40 something years. I doubt his "basis" in the franchise is $25K any longer. Ralph Wilson has been loyal to the City of Buffalo for decades. Show him and his family a little respect. The Wilson family didn't create this insane economy and it is ridiculous to think that they should take a personal financial bath just to make "generations of Western NY Bills fans" happy. If the future of the Bills is to be in Buffalo, civic minded investors need to put together a purchase offer that Ralph Wilson can live with while he's alive. If no one in WNY feels strongly enough about the wisdom of investing in the Bills' future in Buffalo, you can bet that people in one of the many "larger" markets will be interested and it doesn't need to be just LA. There are multiple cities, far more economically viable than Buffalo, that have been seeking an NFL team for years.
Kelly the Dog Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 I'm not sure the inheritance tax is really much of a factor in the decisions being made by the Wilson family members. The fact is that this franchise as an asset has a huge value, not because it is generating buckets of cash where it is now, in Buffalo. Its huge value and corresponding huge inheritance tax is based on its market value. That value is massive because of the cash it can generate somewhere else. Simply moving will raise an ubelievable amount of money as whatever city that wants this team bad enough will make whatever deal it takes with a post-Ralph owner. Even if there were no taxes, the heirs of Ralph Wilson would make way more money from selling the team than they will make in year to year operational income. If you had a choice between selling the team for 750 million or keeping it and cleraing 3 or 4 million per year, what would you do? The problem is not tax law, it is the inescapable fact that this team, this asset, can generate waaaaaaay more cash in another city than it can in Buffalo. Because it can, buyers will be willing to pay boatloads of cash for this team and that sale will generate far more income for the heirs than would keeping the team. Probably the best alternative to selling the team for the heirs is to keep it and move it to a more profitable location themselves. The inescapable logic of math is unfortunately going to cost us this team eventually. What you say is somewhat true, but it doesn't look at the whole picture. Linda has been working for the Bills forever. She very, very likely loves the Bills and football. And there is not a better job in the entire world than owning an NFL team if you love football. The Bills, as an investment and asset, will NEVER go down. It will only go up. You know how one can never say never? NEVER! So they will be adding millions to their worth on a yearly basis and she can sell them whenever she wants. The Bills also make way more than 3 million a year, and they are not at all Ralph's only income. He's a pretty successful businessman, so his wife and kids will easily lead the lives they are accustomed to, and more, by selling the other assets if they want to and keeping the Bills. The fact is that they very well may keep the team, at least for the near future, and could easily insist, because of Ralph's legacy, that the new owners keep the team in Buffalo. I am not really sure there would be a huge difference to them by selling the team for 700 million or 750 million. And all the perks and monies that cities may be throwing at new ownership to move the team there would go to the new ownership and running of that team, not to the Wilsons.
Gordio Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 Come on. I want the Bills to stay in Buffalo forever, but it is unreasonable to expect any business person and his/her family to eat millions of dollars in lost revenue simply to make Bills fans happy. Bills fans are fantastic, loyal, borderline insane, etc., but not one fan has ever risked his own money to invest in the success of the franchise. Bills fans have supported an entertainment product with more loyalty than nearly any fan-base I can imagine---but not one of the fans have put their own money at risk to operate the Bills. You must be fairly young because you refer to a $25,000 investment in a totally unproven product in the early '60s as if it was chump change. Back then---for this investment---it was viewed as burning paper money by a lot of potential investors. Note, too, that nobody in Buffalo put up that cash. In the early years, both the Buffalo franchise and the entire AFL came extremely close to collapsing and, later, the Buffalo franchise was stalked by outsiders for relocation multiple times over the decades. Ralph Wilson could have cashed out for a profit numerous times, but he didn't. He also could have moved the team, just like owners in St. Louis, LA, Baltimore, Oakland, and Cleveland---but again he stayed loyal to Buffalo. Moreover, you fail to realize/acknowledge or appreciate how much additional money---his own money---- this guy has tied up in the club during the intervening 40 something years. I doubt his "basis" in the franchise is $25K any longer. Ralph Wilson has been loyal to the City of Buffalo for decades. Show him and his family a little respect. The Wilson family didn't create this insane economy and it is ridiculous to think that they should take a personal financial bath just to make "generations of Western NY Bills fans" happy. If the future of the Bills is to be in Buffalo, civic minded investors need to put together a purchase offer that Ralph Wilson can live with while he's alive. If no one in WNY feels strongly enough about the wisdom of investing in the Bills' future in Buffalo, you can bet that people in one of the many "larger" markets will be interested and it doesn't need to be just LA. There are multiple cities, far more economically viable than Buffalo, that have been seeking an NFL team for years. Their not going to have to take a personal financial bath. If the daughter had any decensy she would be willing to give a local buyer a hometown discount. Say someone in LA is going to give 750 mill, sell it to a local buyer for 500 mill assuming their is even a local buyer willing to do this. When your talking this dollar amount, call me naive but I really dont see how an extra $250M will create one more ounce of happiness in wilson's family lives. & spare me the financial business bs, Im an investment banker, so Im well aware of the importance of making money. Maybe it is because Im a die hard bills fan, but I think this case is unique. The whole collective psyche of WNY hinges on what happens. & no I dont think Im being overdramatic.
BuffaloRebound Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 What personal financial bath do you speak of? You talk as if Ralph hasn't made money almost every year of the Bills existence. Why did he bring the franchise to Buffalo in the first place? Because at the time Buffalo represented the best place to sustain a football franchise. Now that the LA's of the world would make his $600m organization worth $1b, Bills fans are supposed to feel grateful he doesn't leave? If he is willing to take a team away from a city/region that has supported this franchise for 45 years and at least partly responsible for making what it is today, then the guy at best doesn't have a shred of loyalty and at worst has no heart. I would also be interested in hearing what viable financial offers he's had to leave Buffalo (not saying you are privy to that info, but you make it seem like it is easy to snap your fingers and find a city, fanbase and stadium that will lay down the carpet for Wilson). Obviously, Wilson deserves the right to determine what be done with his franchise, but I don't think he deserves sainthood for keeping the Bills here. He has profited exorbitantly even while keeping the Bills in poor, little Buffalo, and should view WNY and Bills fans as stakeholders in his franchise (publicly that doesn't come across), instead of crying poor and setting Bills fans up for the moving trucks every time he opens his mouth.
OGTEleven Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 I'm not sure the inheritance tax is really much of a factor in the decisions being made by the Wilson family members. The fact is that this franchise as an asset has a huge value, not because it is generating buckets of cash where it is now, in Buffalo. Its huge value and corresponding huge inheritance tax is based on its market value. That value is massive because of the cash it can generate somewhere else. Simply moving will raise an ubelievable amount of money as whatever city that wants this team bad enough will make whatever deal it takes with a post-Ralph owner. Even if there were no taxes, the heirs of Ralph Wilson would make way more money from selling the team than they will make in year to year operational income. If you had a choice between selling the team for 750 million or keeping it and cleraing 3 or 4 million per year, what would you do? The problem is not tax law, it is the inescapable fact that this team, this asset, can generate waaaaaaay more cash in another city than it can in Buffalo. Because it can, buyers will be willing to pay boatloads of cash for this team and that sale will generate far more income for the heirs than would keeping the team. Probably the best alternative to selling the team for the heirs is to keep it and move it to a more profitable location themselves. The inescapable logic of math is unfortunately going to cost us this team eventually. The family will owe tax based on the estimated value of the asset, but not necessarily based on the "highest bidder". There would have to be an objective measure of value which may or may not assume the Bills stay in Buffalo. The State of New York would certainly have some incentive to keep the value low whereas the feds would not care. In either case the measure is established already I'm sure. I highly doubt it assumes a move.
Fan in San Diego Posted January 8, 2007 Author Posted January 8, 2007 Come on. I want the Bills to stay in Buffalo forever, but it is unreasonable to expect any business person and his/her family to eat millions of dollars in lost revenue simply to make Bills fans happy. Bills fans are fantastic, loyal, borderline insane, etc., but not one fan has ever risked his own money to invest in the success of the franchise. Bills fans have supported an entertainment product with more loyalty than nearly any fan-base I can imagine---but not one of the fans have put their own money at risk to operate the Bills. You must be fairly young because you refer to a $25,000 investment in a totally unproven product in the early '60s as if it was chump change. Back then---for this investment---it was viewed as burning paper money by a lot of potential investors. Note, too, that nobody in Buffalo put up that cash. In the early years, both the Buffalo franchise and the entire AFL came extremely close to collapsing and, later, the Buffalo franchise was stalked by outsiders for relocation multiple times over the decades. Ralph Wilson could have cashed out for a profit numerous times, but he didn't. He also could have moved the team, just like owners in St. Louis, LA, Baltimore, Oakland, and Cleveland---but again he stayed loyal to Buffalo. Moreover, you fail to realize/acknowledge or appreciate how much additional money---his own money---- this guy has tied up in the club during the intervening 40 something years. I doubt his "basis" in the franchise is $25K any longer. Ralph Wilson has been loyal to the City of Buffalo for decades. Show him and his family a little respect. The Wilson family didn't create this insane economy and it is ridiculous to think that they should take a personal financial bath just to make "generations of Western NY Bills fans" happy. If the future of the Bills is to be in Buffalo, civic minded investors need to put together a purchase offer that Ralph Wilson can live with while he's alive. If no one in WNY feels strongly enough about the wisdom of investing in the Bills' future in Buffalo, you can bet that people in one of the many "larger" markets will be interested and it doesn't need to be just LA. There are multiple cities, far more economically viable than Buffalo, that have been seeking an NFL team for years. If I was the heir and didn't want to run the team. I would sell a majority stake to a rich investor and keep a large but minority position and let someone else run the team while I sit back and collect the shareholder stake each year, not to mention that initial shot of cash when stake is sold.
UConn James Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 Their not going to have to take a personal financial bath. If the daughter had any decensy she would be willing to give a local buyer a hometown discount. Say someone in LA is going to give 750 mill, sell it to a local buyer for 500 mill assuming their is even a local buyer willing to do this. When your talking this dollar amount, call me naive but I really dont see how an extra $250M will create one more ounce of happiness in wilson's family lives. & spare me the financial business bs, Im an investment banker, so Im well aware of the importance of making money. Maybe it is because Im a die hard bills fan, but I think this case is unique. The whole collective psyche of WNY hinges on what happens. & no I dont think Im being overdramatic. Pardon my interruption, but $250M is a hell of a financial bath. And you also say this as if 2/3 of 31 other owners do not have to approve the sale. They are interested in preserving and increasing the value of their own franchises as well; allowing the sale of any franchise for less than market value hurts every franchise. DO NOT expect Buffalo to get a sympathy !@#$.
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