Isn't it great: most Bills fans would rather have JP than draft

[BuffaloRebound]

The couple times I saw Quinn play this year, I was unimpressed with his slow delivery and inability to put any touch on underneath routes. He throws as if the ball is a 20 pound dumb-bell. His lack of consistency in his delivery causes his short passes to be inaccurate and come out with too much velocity.

[Max997]

are you a professional jerk?

 

basically, many of the top qbs did nothing when they were 18 or 19 because they either redshirted or sat on the bench behind another starter. leinart is the classic example, but the same could be said for many others: troy aikman, bernie kosar, vinnie testaverde, etc.

 

a guy who did start from the get go was carson palmer, and he was highly unproductive his first two seasons. indeed, he was considered a bust by folks with the same mindset as you. tom brady didn't do so much his first couple of years at U of M either, btw. losman bounced from one program to another before he finally settled in his junior season.

 

i think the challenge for you is to find any qbs who were highly productive at the ages of 18 and 19. you'll come up with a handful, but your evidence will be highly outweighed by opposing evidence.

 

 

no your point doesnt make any sense...what you're saying is Quinn's play didnt improve because of Charlie Weiss but because he turned 20? Quinn played before Weiss was hired and played poorly which is my point, guess you just cant put that together

 

when a guy struggles and doesnt play well then suddenly does a 180 when a good coach with a QB friendly system comes aboard its obvious he is more a product of the system then anything else

[smokinandjokin]

no your point doesnt make any sense...what you're saying is Quinn's play didnt improve because of Charlie Weiss but because he turned 20? Quinn played before Weiss was hired and played poorly which is my point, guess you just cant put that together

 

when a guy struggles and doesnt play well then suddenly does a 180 when a good coach with a QB friendly system comes aboard its obvious he is more a product of the system then anything else

 

But look at what type of system he's a product of-

 

Perhaps his game is better suited for a pro-style offense and he was struggling in a college offense before Weis; hence Weis' comments about him having a chance to do really well at the next level.

 

Carson Palmer was pathetic his first three years, but Norm Chow turned him into a Heisman winner. A product of the system? Sure. It just happened to be an NFL system, and as such, his success has translated to the next level.

 

So mcbride's point does make sense.

[dave mcbride]

Perhaps his game is better suited for a pro-style offense and he was struggling in a college offense before Weis; hence Weis' comments about him having a chance to do really well at the next level.

 

Carson Palmer was pathetic his first three years, but Norm Chow turned him into a Heisman winner. A product of the system? Sure. It just happened to be an NFL system, and his success has translated to the next level.

 

So mcbride's point does make sense.

Excellent points, but I would argue that he also struggled because prior to playing his first two seasons at ND, he was playing against high school competition in Dublin, Ohio. Guys in college are bigger, faster, and simply better than guys in high school, especially at the colleges that ND traditionally plays (MSU, U of M, SC, Stanford, Purdue, an ACC team, another big ten team, another Pac 10 team, and even the service academies). It takes time to adjust. And people get better over time -- bigger, stronger, more knowledgeable, etc. By the way, we're all applying the same logic to Losman - he was expected to stink early on, but with age and experience would become better. It's a logic that applies pretty much across the board, from Troy Aikman to Chad Pennington to Philip Rivers (both of whom were essentially two year redshirts) to Eli Manning to Drew Bledsoe (!) to, well, practically everyone else except Dan Marino and possibly Roethlisberger (although I'd argue that he was blessed with a great running game, a great D, and a great offensive line).

[Max997]

But look at what type of system he's a product of-

 

Perhaps his game is better suited for a pro-style offense and he was struggling in a college offense before Weis; hence Weis' comments about him having a chance to do really well at the next level.

 

Carson Palmer was pathetic his first three years, but Norm Chow turned him into a Heisman winner. A product of the system? Sure. It just happened to be an NFL system, and as such, his success has translated to the next level.

 

So mcbride's point does make sense.

 

 

if thats the way it would have been put I would have agreed with it but he's argument was that he was young and nothing to do with the system he was in

 

Palmer won and played well in big games, say what you want about the talent around him but he raised his game against better competition and didnt build up his rep by beating Army and Navy. I thought Palmer was less of a given then most people thought and he has proved me wrong, he is one of the best QBs in the game and throws one of the best balls in the NFL which I dont think people put enough empasis on especially for QBs that will play in cold weather cities

 

I'll take a strong armed QB that won in college over one with all the stats but couldnt win big games anyday

[dave mcbride]

if thats the way it would have been put I would have agreed with it but he's argument was that he was young and nothing to do with the system he was in

 

Palmer won and played well in big games, say what you want about the talent around him but he raised his game against better competition and didnt build up his rep by beating Army and Navy. I thought Palmer was less of a given then most people thought and he has proved me wrong, he is one of the best QBs in the game and throws one of the best balls in the NFL which I dont think people put enough empasis on especially for QBs that will play in cold weather cities

 

I'll take a strong armed QB that won in college over one with all the stats but couldnt win big games anyday

Not to fixate on a point, but you haven't named any qbs who performed exceptionally at the big time college level when they were 18/19.

[Max997]

Not to fixate on a point, but you haven't named any qbs who performed exceptionally at the big time college level when they were 18/19.

 

why bother? all you're going to say is that they are not the norm...but off the top of my head i'll say Danny Weurffel. I believe Eli was a 3 or 4 year starter and he played pretty well from the start

[dave mcbride]

p.s. Brady Quinn ain't the reason ND lost to SC this year:

 

L 44-24 22/45; 274 yards; 48.9 completion pct; 3 tds; 0 ints; 11 rushes; 74 yards

 

it had a little something to with that stellar ND defense.

[Max997]

p.s. Brady Quinn ain't the reason ND lost to SC this year:

 

L 44-24 22/45; 274 yards; 48.9 completion pct; 3 tds; 0 ints; 11 rushes; 74 yards

 

it had a little something to with that stellar ND defense.

 

 

completed less then 50% of his passes and two of his TDs were in the second half when ND was trailing by double digits and they were forced to throw. Stats can be hollow if you look close enough. ND's defense was torched but 20 incompletions and leading them to only 10 points in the first half didnt help their cause either

[dave mcbride]

why bother? all you're going to say is that they are not the norm...but off the top of my head i'll say Danny Weurffel

well, they aren't the norm, but the point is central to your argument. wuerffel did have good years in 95 and 96; i'll certainly grant you that. he shared starting time in 93/94 with Terry Dean, though, and wasn't nearly as good then as he was in 95 and 96.

[dave mcbride]

completed less then 50% of his passes and two of his TDs were in the second half when ND was trailing by double digits and they were forced to throw. Stats can be hollow if you look close enough. ND's defense was torched but 20 incompletions and leading them to only 10 points in the first half didnt help their cause either

10 points on the road in a hostile environment in the first half = 20 points total. with a half decent defense, that produces victory often enough ...

[Adam]

2 months ago Quinn was in order for the Buffalo Bills according to some. Now JP with the success the 2nd half of the season has won over most; a lot more with his grit and effoert than stats which haven't been too bad when given the opportunity to put the ball up. Now with Quinn's poor performance last night a lot more will now jump off his bandwagon and see that while he went to a big time university, his athletic credentials and potential is no better than what we have with JP. And like most smart fans were saying at the beginning of the season which would you rather have: a strong armed mobile QB who has the tools to get it done but needs experience to show what he can do or draft an over hyped QB who went to a bigger named university and start over again from scratch and give this guy 2,3 years to develop? I think I'd stick with JP; let DeLucia and Holcomb's arm give each other pleasure while they watch Quinn highlights!

JP has about 1.5 seasons of experience- he actually has developed much quicker than I figured he would, and I still think he has plenty of upside. I'd like to get him at least one big target- I think we have the shortest group of WR's in the league, and we have to go spread to help them get open. Not doing that all the time would help the line play better. I'd love the WR from Notre Dame or the TE from Rutgers

[Alaska Darin]

completed less then 50% of his passes and two of his TDs were in the second half when ND was trailing by double digits and they were forced to throw. Stats can be hollow if you look close enough. ND's defense was torched but 20 incompletions and leading them to only 10 points in the first half didnt help their cause either

At least six of those incompletions were drops of perfectly thrown passes. But don't let the actual game get in the way of super smart arguments like "Vince Young wins games all by himself." You'll be sure to let me know when I can watch him play one-on-eleven, won't you? Hint: I'll wager A LOT of money on the team fielding 11 guys.

[smokinandjokin]

At least six of those incompletions were drops of perfectly thrown passes. But don't let the actual game get in the way of super smart arguments like "Vince Young wins games all by himself." You'll be sure to let me know when I can watch him play one-on-eleven, won't you? Hint: I'll wager A LOT of money on the team fielding 11 guys.

 

 

47-21 loss to Michigan: 24-48, 234 yds, 3TD, 3INT

44-24 loss to USC: 22-45, 274 yds, 3 TD, 0INT

41-14 loss to LSU: 15-35, 148 yds, 2 TD, 2 INT

 

So, a 65% passer against Air Force and North Carolina dips to 50% or below against those teams, and it's receivers dropping passes? Hmmmm...And what about the INT's? Are we blaming the spike in those on the Stanford DB's dropping his bad passes?

 

As for Vince, you know what he was talking about. Not Vince vs. 11. Take any QB on Earth...Brady, Elway, Vick...and put them on Texas for the '05 Rose against Michigan, or the '06 Rose against USC, and Texas loses those games. The skill set he showed in those games was irreplaceable, hence the term "single-handedly." He didn't let 6 dropped passes become his excuse.

[Alaska Darin]

 

47-21 loss to Michigan: 24-48, 234 yds, 3TD, 3INT

44-24 loss to USC: 22-45, 274 yds, 3 TD, 0INT

41-14 loss to LSU: 15-35, 148 yds, 2 TD, 2 INT

 

So, a 65% passer against Air Force and North Carolina dips to 50% or below against those teams, and it's receivers dropping passes? Hmmmm...And what about the INT's? Are we blaming the spike in those on the Stanford DB's dropping his bad passes?

As I have stated AD NAUSEUM: Notre Dame is Michigan State with a better QB and coach. THEY ARE NOT AN ELITE TEAM IN ANY WAY. They have little team speed and their defense is small and slow. The offensive line is for the most part terrible and that becomes VERY evident when the level of competition increases. The top 2 wideouts are maddeningly inconsistant - at times brilliant, then dropping key passes at critical junctures (McKnight absolutely screwed us in the USC game). The kicker was so bad that Charlie stopped even attempting FGs in the SC game.

 

As for Vince, you know what he was talking about. Not Vince vs. 11. Take any QB on Earth...Brady, Elway, Vick...and put them on Texas for the '05 Rose against Michigan, or the '06 Rose against USC, and Texas loses those games. The skill set he showed in those games was irreplaceable, hence the term "single-handedly." He didn't let 6 dropped passes become his excuse.

I had no idea you were such a soothsayer. Now NO QB who has ever lived could beat the mighty Trojans (even though a very average ND team lost to them on the last play of the game, what, a month earlier?). Vince Young played a great fourth quarter against an overrated team with an average defense. Let's try to keep in mind the game STILL came down to TEXAS' DEFENSE stopping USC on 4th and 2 on their last drive to even give Young a chance to be a hero. Not ANY different than the ND/USC game, except it was USC who had the ball last in that one.

 

But let's keep this going. Individual players SHOULD be blamed for team losses. That never gets old or intelligent. It's almost as much fun as watching 25% of Steelers' fans calling Bill Cower an average coach today.

[Kelly the Dog]

Andrew Walter is a better prospect than Quinn at least from a pure passer point of view. However, (and it's a very big however), he seems to like getting sacked.

Andrew Walter is a terrible pure passer. I watched him closely throughout his college career as a Sun Devil fan, and even a big Andrew Walter fan. But he stinks, for the most part, EXCEPT that he throws a gorgeous deep ball. He consistently throws off his back foot, he consistently throws dumb passes, he will kill you and then throw a beautiful bomb for a score. But as a pure passer, IMO he's awful.

[dave mcbride]

 

47-21 loss to Michigan: 24-48, 234 yds, 3TD, 3INT

44-24 loss to USC: 22-45, 274 yds, 3 TD, 0INT

41-14 loss to LSU: 15-35, 148 yds, 2 TD, 2 INT

 

So, a 65% passer against Air Force and North Carolina dips to 50% or below against those teams, and it's receivers dropping passes? Hmmmm...And what about the INT's? Are we blaming the spike in those on the Stanford DB's dropping his bad passes?

 

As for Vince, you know what he was talking about. Not Vince vs. 11. Take any QB on Earth...Brady, Elway, Vick...and put them on Texas for the '05 Rose against Michigan, or the '06 Rose against USC, and Texas loses those games. The skill set he showed in those games was irreplaceable, hence the term "single-handedly." He didn't let 6 dropped passes become his excuse.

what were his stats against penn state, a team with a good defense, and against michigan last year, and against sc last year, and against ucla this year (a team that completely shut down sc and booty)?

 

Let me repeat - I'm not a notre dame fan, and i don't know how he'll do in the pros (although i suspect he'll be pretty good). however, it's a team game.

 

as for texas, my guess is that within 5 years, 10-15 of those guys from that 05 team will be in the nfl. nd? maybe 5.

[bartshan-83]

Smokin, I love you man but let's take a step back or two. Brady Quinn is not the God he was made out to be, but you blaming him for these losses are a little silly. You say his stats dip when he plays the best teams, well I'd like to see this list of great QBs who have don't have worse stats vs. far superior opponents. How about Matt Leinart's stellar 17-32 300 yds. 0 TDs and 2 INTs vs. ND last year? If Ambrose Wooden turns his head around, is Leinart the the goat of that game? How about only throwing 1 TD in the Natl Title game last year?

 

I mean, obviously Leinart has won his fair share and he is a big time player in big games. But USC beat ND DESPITE a very bad game out of their starting QB last year. They were so superior to ND in other facets of the game, that it didn't matter that leader of their offense had the worst game of the season. If Quinn had played the way Leinart had that afternoon, USC wins by 14.

 

Brady has his issues. But you watched the USC game this year. Quinn was the only one on either side of our team who came to play that evening. McKnight completely fcked us, Samardzija took a nap during the 2nd and 3rd quarters and both lines played like their thongs were riding too high.

 

When Quinn goes 12-35 100 yds 3 INTs vs. a good team, then I will hear your argument. Switch him and Jamarcus Russell and guess who wins? Switch him and Chad Henne when ND played Michigan this year, and guess who wins? Switch him and Matt Leinart last year and guess who wins?

 

If your answer was ND in any of those games, then you're wrong. Every game that ND has lost during the last two years has been a result of playing a superior oppenent in multiple facets of the game. Slow defenses and inconsistent offensive weapons aren't a good combination in big time games.

 

EDIT: I didn't see the excellent point above about Penn State. PSU was 11th in the nation is points allowed (14.8) and 16th in yards allowed (279.0). Yet Brady absolutely shredded them for 25-36 287 3-0. I mean, he was 12-16 150 2-0 in the SECOND QUARTER.

[Questfor31]

Taking these quarterbacks in the first round is still such an inexact science. I think it's easy to look past that fact when factoring in the quick success of Vince Young, Jay Cutler, and Matt Leinart ... throw in the Roethlisergers , Mannings, and Rivers and all of a sudden a trend seems to develop. But for all the success these youngs guns are having there are still the Rick Mirers, Ryan Leafs, Cade McNowns, Tim Couches ... Alex Smith is nothing special ... and Green Bay can't seem to move Aron Rodgers ahead of an ageing Brett Favre. I watched Aaron Rodgers play in Lambeau Field ... he folded like paper bag.

[Bill from NYC]

We better fix that OL this offseason. Next years schedule is brutal in that we are going to play the AFC East, AFC North and NFC East teams 14 out of the 16 games with Denver and Tenneessee being the other two teams. All those cold weather teams play physical and we need to kick start that running game and control the line of scrimmage to succeed. We need a solid OL to play those teams. I hope Marv will spend that 20M signing bonus on Steinbach rather than CLements to build that OL.

 

This paragraph just about says it all.

Until the Bills can compete physically with these teams, there is little hope of a playoff run. Levy and Jauron need to bring players to Buffalo who are able to block and prevent the run.