Anyone else get the sense McGahee didn't want to be there?

[BuffaloBob]

Nope. You're forgetting about Frank Gore. TWO blown knees and an offensive line that is no better than the Bills' line, and quite possibly worse. Anyone who has watched him play will tell you that he's a man on an island on that offense, and that every yard he gets he gets himself. But you know what? He gets his hards, because he hits the hole like a man possessed. Same with Stephen Jackson, who plays behind an awful o-line - he single-handedly gashed the best rushing defense in the NFL on Sunday. There are RBs in this League playing behind horrible o-lines who perform better than Willis, and the only reason I can think of is that they want it more.

I believe Willis had TWO blown knees as well, it's just that the second one was all THREE ligaments. As for comparing the two O-lines, on what basis is this comparison being made? Every yard he gets, he gets by himself? Sounds like hyperbole to make a point to me.

 

But let's look at a few stats that may bear some actual light on the subject. In the 16 games in which frank Gore played, half of them were against teams ranked 21st or below against the run. In contrast, of the 13 games in which Willis played (excluding the GB game in which his two ribs were cracked and one broken early in the game, apparently due to his lack of effort and hitting the hole with passion), Willis played nine against teams ranked 8th or below against the run.

 

Indeed, Gore made his living against teams lousy against the run. In two games against the 22nd ranked Seattle alone, he had 356 yards. In two games against the even worse 31st ranked St. Louis Rams, he had another 261 yards for a grand total of 617 yards for an average per game of 154 yards! By contrast, in the only THREE games against which he played teams ranked in the top ten against the run, he had 207 yards for average of 69 yards per game.

 

Morever, Willis played games from the Jax game on in no doubt extreme pain. Anyone who has ever had one cracked rib, let alone three knows how painful that is how long it takes for them to truly heal.

 

But I guess, in your expert opinion, no doubt after breaking down film of every Bills and Niners game, grading the play of each O-line, and factoring in the level of competition presented by their defensive opponents, you have concluded that Willis is a kitty and Frank Gore earns every yard he gets on his own.

 

Better alert the Bills quickly, because I am sure they are completely unaware of this flawless assessment!

 

BTW, I am not taking anything away from Frank Gore, as I think he is a very good back.

[Coach Tuesday]

I believe Willis had TWO blown knees as well, it's just that the second one was all THREE ligaments. As for comparing the two O-lines, on what basis is this comparison being made? Every yard he gets, he gets by himself? Sounds like hyperbole to make a point to me.

 

But let's look at a few stats that may bear some actual light on the subject. In the 16 games in which frank Gore played, half of them were against teams ranked 21st or below against the run. In contrast, of the 13 games in which Willis played (excluding the GB game in which his two ribs were cracked and one broken early in the game, apparently due to his lack of effort and hitting the hole with passion), Willis played nine against teams ranked 8th or below against the run.

 

Indeed, Gore made his living against teams lousy against the run. In two games against the 22nd ranked Seattle alone, he had 356 yards. In two games against the even worse 31st ranked St. Louis Rams, he had another 261 yards for a grand total of 617 yards for an average per game of 154 yards! By contrast, in the only THREE games against which he played teams ranked in the top ten against the run, he had 207 yards for average of 69 yards per game.

 

Morever, Willis played games from the Jax game on in no doubt extreme pain. Anyone who has ever had one cracked rib, let alone three knows how painful that is how long it takes for them to truly heal.

 

But I guess, in your expert opinion, no doubt after breaking down film of every Bills and Niners game, grading the play of each O-line, and factoring in the level of competition presented by their defensive opponents, you have concluded that Willis is a kitty and Frank Gore earns every yard he gets on his own.

 

Better alert the Bills quickly, because I am sure they are completely unaware of this flawless assessment!

 

BTW, I am not taking anything away from Frank Gore, as I think he is a very good back.

 

I'll ignore the sneering - do you have access to YAC data? That might resolve the dispute.

[dave mcbride]

I believe Willis had TWO blown knees as well, it's just that the second one was all THREE ligaments. As for comparing the two O-lines, on what basis is this comparison being made? Every yard he gets, he gets by himself? Sounds like hyperbole to make a point to me.

 

But let's look at a few stats that may bear some actual light on the subject. In the 16 games in which frank Gore played, half of them were against teams ranked 21st or below against the run. In contrast, of the 13 games in which Willis played (excluding the GB game in which his two ribs were cracked and one broken early in the game, apparently due to his lack of effort and hitting the hole with passion), Willis played nine against teams ranked 8th or below against the run.

 

Indeed, Gore made his living against teams lousy against the run. In two games against the 22nd ranked Seattle alone, he had 356 yards. In two games against the even worse 31st ranked St. Louis Rams, he had another 261 yards for a grand total of 617 yards for an average per game of 154 yards! By contrast, in the only THREE games against which he played teams ranked in the top ten against the run, he had 207 yards for average of 69 yards per game.

 

Morever, Willis played games from the Jax game on in no doubt extreme pain. Anyone who has ever had one cracked rib, let alone three knows how painful that is how long it takes for them to truly heal.

 

But I guess, in your expert opinion, no doubt after breaking down film of every Bills and Niners game, grading the play of each O-line, and factoring in the level of competition presented by their defensive opponents, you have concluded that Willis is a kitty and Frank Gore earns every yard he gets on his own.

 

Better alert the Bills quickly, because I am sure they are completely unaware of this flawless assessment!

 

BTW, I am not taking anything away from Frank Gore, as I think he is a very good back.

Gore is significantly better. Just look at what he did against the Broncos in the final game, a team with a good run defense. He was pretty much unstoppable every game despite the fact that the Niners had nothing comparable to Lee Evans to draw pressure away from him.

 

BTW, McGahee had one torn up knee. The other was hurt -- a badly sprained MCL or PCL, as I recall -- but it was nothing serious.

[Dawgg]

 

For as long a diatribe as yours, it fails to make a single point other than nitpick at the schedule differential between the two opponents.

 

Make no mistake the 49ers offensive line is nothing to write home about.

 

Also make no mistake that when facing one of the worst run defenses in the league in Tennessee, Willis had a decent game, nothing spectacular. As you yourself pointed out, against some of the worst run defenses in the NFL, Frank Gore not only did well, he tore it up.

 

Marv himself knows full well that Willis is not the long-term solution at RB. Perhaps you will join the party soon enough. Until then, continue with your diatribes.

 

 

I believe Willis had TWO blown knees as well, it's just that the second one was all THREE ligaments. As for comparing the two O-lines, on what basis is this comparison being made? Every yard he gets, he gets by himself? Sounds like hyperbole to make a point to me.

 

But let's look at a few stats that may bear some actual light on the subject. In the 16 games in which frank Gore played, half of them were against teams ranked 21st or below against the run. In contrast, of the 13 games in which Willis played (excluding the GB game in which his two ribs were cracked and one broken early in the game, apparently due to his lack of effort and hitting the hole with passion), Willis played nine against teams ranked 8th or below against the run.

 

Indeed, Gore made his living against teams lousy against the run. In two games against the 22nd ranked Seattle alone, he had 356 yards. In two games against the even worse 31st ranked St. Louis Rams, he had another 261 yards for a grand total of 617 yards for an average per game of 154 yards! By contrast, in the only THREE games against which he played teams ranked in the top ten against the run, he had 207 yards for average of 69 yards per game.

 

Morever, Willis played games from the Jax game on in no doubt extreme pain. Anyone who has ever had one cracked rib, let alone three knows how painful that is how long it takes for them to truly heal.

 

But I guess, in your expert opinion, no doubt after breaking down film of every Bills and Niners game, grading the play of each O-line, and factoring in the level of competition presented by their defensive opponents, you have concluded that Willis is a kitty and Frank Gore earns every yard he gets on his own.

 

Better alert the Bills quickly, because I am sure they are completely unaware of this flawless assessment!

 

BTW, I am not taking anything away from Frank Gore, as I think he is a very good back.

[BuffaloBob]

 

For as long a diatribe as yours, it fails to make a single point other than nitpick at the schedule differential between the two opponents.

 

Make no mistake the 49ers offensive line is nothing to write home about.

 

Also make no mistake that when facing one of the worst run defenses in the league in Tennessee, Willis had a decent game, nothing spectacular. As you yourself pointed out, against some of the worst run defenses in the NFL, Frank Gore not only did well, he tore it up.

 

Marv himself knows full well that Willis is not the long-term solution at RB. Perhaps you will join the party soon enough. Until then, continue with your diatribes.

Ooops! Sorry for not making the point more explicit for those whose reading comprehension and logical reasoning abilities prohibit them from making the obvious inference.

 

So now I will spell it out for you.

 

1) Simply saying that the 49ers Oline is as bad or worse than the Bills without more is mental masturbation and self-serving. Unless you have broken down the performances of the O-lines, and at least made some adjustment for the competence of your opponents run defense, simply saying it doesn't make it so.

 

2) Which leads to the second point: All but 4 of the games that Willis played in were against teams ranked 8th or higher against the run. Gore played in only three games against similar competition. Eight were against teams ranked below 21st. Obviously, when one is making a blanket statement about two running backs, one should be considering what teams they were playing and how good they were against the run.

 

Point number 1 should be obvious. I realize that there are many on this board who fancy themselves able to draw such sweeping conclusions without the benefit of film, let alone real NFL expertise, but they are legends in their own minds.

 

With respect to point two, characterizing the information as nitpicking in an attempt to somehow marginalize its value is sound strategy when one has no other ammunition, but the stats speak for themselves. Willis played against much tougher defenses against the run by far. Period.

 

And yes, Willis didn't run for 250 yards against the Titans. Part of the reason is that he was once again sick during the game and was on the bench for over a quarter. A result of pain medication for his ribs, he aggravated his bum ankle, or effects of the flu going around that week. Who knows? Oh no, what am I thinking. Willis didn't want to play so he took a quarter and a half off to play with himself on the bench!

 

This may come as a shock, but one can easily look at certain games Gore played against teams weaker against the run and draw the same conclusions you are attempting: 40 yards against the 23rd ranked Saints; 52 yards against the 26th ranked Eagles; 65 yards against the 18th ranked Chiefs. But hey, that's nitpicking.

 

But far be it from me to question a guy who is obviously personal friends with Marv Levy and has been apprised of Marv's personal assessment of Willis! Join you and the Willis bashing party? I think not. I prefer to draw conclusions from fact, not from personal shoot-from-the-hip assessments I'm not competent to make in the first place. But that's me.

[Ramius]

Ooops! Sorry for not making the point more explicit for those whose reading comprehension and logical reasoning abilities prohibit them from making the obvious inference.

 

So now I will spell it out for you.

 

1) Simply saying that the 49ers Oline is as bad or worse than the Bills without more is mental masturbation and self-serving. Unless you have broken down the performances of the O-lines, and at least made some adjustment for the competence of your opponents run defense, simply saying it doesn't make it so.

 

2) Which leads to the second point: All but 4 of the games that Willis played in were against teams ranked 8th or higher against the run. Gore played in only three games against similar competition. Eight were against teams ranked below 21st. Obviously, when one is making a blanket statement about two running backs, one should be considering what teams they were playing and how good they were against the run.

 

Point number 1 should be obvious. I realize that there are many on this board who fancy themselves able to draw such sweeping conclusions without the benefit of film, let alone real NFL expertise, but they are legends in their own minds.

 

With respect to point two, characterizing the information as nitpicking in an attempt to somehow marginalize its value is sound strategy when one has no other ammunition, but the stats speak for themselves. Willis played against much tougher defenses against the run by far. Period.

 

And yes, Willis didn't run for 250 yards against the Titans. Part of the reason is that he was once again sick during the game and was on the bench for over a quarter. A result of pain medication for his ribs, he aggravated his bum ankle, or effects of the flu going around that week. Who knows? Oh no, what am I thinking. Willis didn't want to play so he took a quarter and a half off to play with himself on the bench!

 

This may come as a shock, but one can easily look at certain games Gore played against teams weaker against the run and draw the same conclusions you are attempting: 40 yards against the 23rd ranked Saints; 52 yards against the 26th ranked Eagles; 65 yards against the 18th ranked Chiefs. But hey, that's nitpicking.

 

But far be it from me to question a guy who is obviously personal friends with Marv Levy and has been apprised of Marv's personal assessment of Willis! Join you and the Willis bashing party? I think not. I prefer to draw conclusions from fact, not from personal shoot-from-the-hip assessments I'm not competent to make in the first place. But that's me.

 

Dont bother. Some people are too myopic to actually critically analyze something. Its much easier to hate willis and say he sucks because he comes from the "U", and he's not a typical buffalonian.

[Dawgg]

1) Simply saying that the 49ers Oline is as bad or worse than the Bills without more is mental masturbation and self-serving. Unless you have broken down the performances of the O-lines, and at least made some adjustment for the competence of your opponents run defense, simply saying it doesn't make it so.

Living in SF for most of the year, I have watched virtualy every 49ers game this season. Did I break down the film and assign a grade to each offensive lineman, normalize that grade to their individual defensive opponents and calculate a composite grade for the overall line? PLEASE... it doesn't take an astute football eye to realize this fact: Frank Gore is a far superior running back to Willis McGahee. Did he face inferior competition? Perhaps. Having watched both teams this season at length, it is pretty apparent who the better player is.

 

With respect to point two, characterizing the information as nitpicking in an attempt to somehow marginalize its value is sound strategy when one has no other ammunition, but the stats speak for themselves. Willis played against much tougher defenses against the run by far. Period.

 

Here are some stats that matter.

 

YPC: Willis - 3.8. Only Jamal Lewis and Edge were worse among RBs with > 250 attempts

 

100 yard games: Willis - 2... tied with Jamal Lewis for fewest among RBs with > 250 attempts.

 

He's an average, inconsistent back.

 

But far be it from me to question a guy who is obviously personal friends with Marv Levy and has been apprised of Marv's personal assessment of Willis!

 

While I am not personal friend of Marv's the latter is true. I don't have to prove anything to you...

[Dawgg]

What running back IS a typical Buffalonian? PLEASE...

 

Nothing against players from the U either... his play simply speaks for itself!

 

Dont bother. Some people are too myopic to actually critically analyze something. Its much easier to hate willis and say he sucks because he comes from the "U", and he's not a typical buffalonian.

[Dawgg]

For sure.

 

Gore is significantly better.

[Lori]

Simply saying that the 49ers Oline is as bad or worse than the Bills without more is mental masturbation and self-serving. Unless you have broken down the performances of the O-lines, and at least made some adjustment for the competence of your opponents run defense, simply saying it doesn't make it so.

This may be what you seek... or maybe not. Food for thought, in either case.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol.php

[Dawgg]

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy in a sense.

 

3 of the 4 criteria is based on having a running back with vision.

 

1) Yards per Carry of the running back (Frank Gore is much better than WM)

 

2) # carries for 10+ yards (again a lot of that is dependent on a RB with VISION)

 

3) Percentage of runs on third or fourth down, two yards or less to go, that achieved a first down. This is laughable because Willis is not a particularly good short yardage back IMO.

 

 

This may be what you seek... or maybe not. Food for thought, in either case.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol.php

[Coach Tuesday]

YPC: Willis - 3.8. Only Jamal Lewis and Edge were worse among RBs with > 250 attempts

 

Hmm... didn't he also play behind a poor offensive line, agaisnt most of the same poor rushing defenses as Gore?

 

Hmmmmmmmmmm......

[Coach Tuesday]

Dont bother. Some people are too myopic to actually critically analyze something. Its much easier to hate willis and say he sucks because he comes from the "U", and he's not a typical buffalonian.

 

Come on man, you know better than that. And my original post was about Willis failing to hit the holes hard, failing to block blitzers, and failing to hold onto the football during week 17. I'm surprised there is so much disagreement about these things - they seemed obvious to me.

[1billsfan]

Come on man, you know better than that. And my original post was about Willis failing to hit the holes hard, failing to block blitzers, and failing to hold onto the football during week 17. I'm surprised there is so much disagreement about these things - they seemed obvious to me.

 

They are obvious. Willis had a hard time with any teams that didn't have a football on their helmets. He seems to go down as soon as someone breathes on him. NFL runningbacks his size shouldn't be falling down that easy.

[dave mcbride]

Seriously, are people really arguing that McGahee is as good as Gore? Gore was better than him in college when he first got there and was completely healthy, and his two knee injuries weren't as bad as McGahee's one. McGahee's alright -- better than what the Jets or Raiders have, to be sure. I also wouldn't be surprised if he approaches 1350-1400 yards next season. But saying that he's alright doesn't mean I have to sniff glue and say that he's therefore as good as Gore. He isn't, and watching games attests to this. Gore hits the hole quicker, has better quickness, and a better long distance burst. I'm not sure he's as good as McGahee at shedding tackles in the midst of the trash 2-3 yards downfield, but in those other categories, he's surely better. He's a better receiver too by far.

 

Gore's 2006 stats: 16 games; 313 carries; 1695 yards; 5.4 ypc; 8 rushing tds; 61 receptions; 485 yards; 8.0 yards per reception; 1 receiving TD

[MRW]

Seriously, are people really arguing that McGahee is as good as Gore?

I definitely wouldn't argue that, Gore is looking like an elite back. The problem I have is that it seems like some people want to toss McGahee aside because they think it will be easy for us to get a back who can put up Gore-type numbers. If I'm reading too much into what people are saying then I apologize. But if that is what is being argued then it seems ludicrous to me. I wouldn't be opposed to a late first day or early second day RB pick, but why go creating holes in the team where we don't need to?

[dave mcbride]

I definitely wouldn't argue that, Gore is looking like an elite back. The problem I have is that it seems like some people want to toss McGahee aside because they think it will be easy for us to get a back who can put up Gore-type numbers. If I'm reading too much into what people are saying then I apologize. But if that is what is being argued then it seems ludicrous to me. I wouldn't be opposed to a late first day or early second day RB pick, but why go creating holes in the team where we don't need to?

I'm certainly not arguing that. Running back is a fairly solid position on the team, and there are far bigger problems than McGahee.