Whitner

[SilverNRed]

Safety in football is similar to defenseman in hockey. For some players, the less you hear their name, the better they are. Tallinder for the Sabres is a great example.

 

One reason we didn't see Whitner making an impact is that teams just weren't throwing in his direction. Part of that had to be because the Bills run defense was so poor they didn't have to, but some of it had to be that Whitner was doing his job pretty well. It's the same thing as people bitching that Clements sucked the first half of this season. Teams weren't throwing towards him; they were busy abusing McGee.

 

With the number of tackles Whitner made, he definitely has a nose for the ball. And please remember than an entire NFL season is MUCH more grueling than a college season. In college you play less games and they're more spread out and if you're a great school like Ohio State, you don't play teams as good as you very often. In the NFL you play 16 games with one bye week and almost every team is comparable in talent. Asking a rookie to come in and be great right away is a bit much.

 

And WTF cares about 8th overall? The draft is over, let Mel Kiper worry about who drafted where. Whitner is a rookie football player. Let's just judge him that way. He has nothing to do with where he was drafted. I'm happy with the draft based on the players we got. If we'd drafted the exact same players but in completely different order, it's still a good draft.

[Pyrite Gal]

I agree 100%.

 

And, asking if Whitner was an "impact" player is neither unfair nor inflammatory. I could care less if Whitner was "sold" as a non-impact player. How a GM "sells" (or markets, or spins - take your pick of words) is IRRELEVANT to how a guy is judged, particularly at the #8 draft position. Show me production and game-changing ability from #8.

 

Whitner is solid. But not an impact player.

 

How we fans "judge" a player to be prior to and on draft day is pretty irrelevant then and it is less important now,

 

The real deal is whether we built a good team with the draft, player development, trades, UDFAs or whatever.

 

Whitner clearly was an impact player on the 2006 Bills squad which improved not only the record of the team from 5-11 to 7-9 but did this against opponents who actually had a good record of production this year (half of our games were against teams which made the playoffs including the 5 top seeds in the AFC and the top seed in the NFC).

 

Is Whitner a Pro Bowl quality player or someone one would choose to call and NFL impact player?

 

No!

 

However, I think that the proper perspective on this question is who cares as the right questions are is this Bills team improving and was Whitner an important impact player in this improvement.

 

I say that the answers to these two questions are emphaticallt YES and YES.

 

Does anyone out there want to contend that this team which finished 7-9 is not better than and I would say significantly better than last year's team which finished 5-11?

 

This current team has lots of failings and many things to work on from individual play to some questionable game calling decisions. However, I think its hard to look at this year's games and not recognize that with the transition from the failed TD reign of error, the devolving coaching situation which led to the resignation of MM and the prescense of a variety of players who did not want to be here and proved to be cancers (Moulds is a talented player but it was time for him to go after his unprofessional meltdown last year) this team is improved.

 

Will they continue to improve?

 

We'll see. There is a whole off-season and some critical decisions which will need to be made regarding FAs which will determine whether the improvement continues but do far the answer is that the team is inadequate but going in the right direction.

 

The second question in assessing Whitner is whether he contributed to this improvement in a positive way. He started 15 games for the Bills and finished second on the team breaking the 100 tackle mark. The bottomline for a team is that a 1st round choice is expected to start and Whitner did that.

 

In fact given that he teamed with Simpson as the only rookie safety combo in the NFL. I think this defines not only the choice having a positive impact on the Bills but the Marv led draft yielded not 1 but actually 4 players who won starting jobs on this team which improved a lot over last years model (Youbouty and Ellison won starting jobs after injuries but the other 4 will likely win starting jobs over other players currently on the roster.

 

I think if a draft even produced a couple of starters by the end of the year it would be considered a good one. Given that over 1/3 of the defense consists of starters drafted this year, I think it was a great draft for us.

 

Could it have been better?

 

Sure!

 

However, this is little more than fantasy league stuff of remote interest to the real world of football.

 

The judgment about whether

[BuffaloBilliever]

There's a solid defense and there's a star-lit defense.

 

Our team is based on TEAM, not playmaker, playmaker, playmaker, and supporters.

 

Marv's philosophy is to make a solid, swarming team.

 

Plus, who gives two effs about the first round draft picks?

 

Ellison, Williams, and Pennington all came out of that draft and look, they're starters!

[2003Contenders]

Actually I thought Whitner had one of his best games on Sunday. He was very stout in run support, made some BIG hits (including at least one that lodged a completed pass loose), and -- as he has been all year -- played well in space to prevent giving up any over-the-top receptions. No, he didn't look like a Pro Bowler, but how many rookies do? The kid was taken 8th overall, which seems to be everyone's beef. Well, how much of an impact did the 7 players taken ahead of him make? I would say Whitner had a better season than either Williams or Huff, the safety that was taken by the Raiders one spot ahead of Whitner. I'd say his contribution was on a par with the Jets' D'Brick and the Packers' Hawk. The guy pretty much started from day one, despite a holdout in traing camp, so I'm not sure what

 

 

At the end of last year, we worried about BOTH of our safety positions. This year, I think we can rest well with Simpson and Whitner, knowing that both will get better. In fact, if we can get some more beef up front, look for both safeties to make bigger plays moving forward.

[Mike formerly from Florida]

Man, I'm really pissed Ralph didn't hire some of you here instead of Marv.

 

Really! But to be fair, this is a board for discussion and everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Some are realistic and others have an agenda.

Frankly, I thought this was a damn good draft. We had six starters: Whitner, Simpson, Ellison (who looks like something special, IMO), Pennington (who held his own playing next to a weak player), Kyle Williams (another great pick), and McCargo, who would have played a lot in the rotation (and the verdict is still out on him). We also have Youboty waiting in the wings who may be a steal. The facts are, first year players who are talented, and start as rookies make great strides in their second year after acclimating to the NFL's longer season. I think we will be pleasantly surprised as Whitner becomes an impact player next year, and Kyle Williams puts on some weight and gets stronger. Nobody can judge a draft after the first season, but I would go on record and say that Marv is off to a good start.

 

Next April, with Fletcher-Baker likely gone (who seems bitter), we will need to draft a middle linebacker who is a big tackling machine, a guard (who has to step right in and start--no doubt about it), a tall receiver to be a threat in the red zone, and I believe, a third down back in the mold of Leon Washington to give JP more options on third-and-medium-range downs. Those to me are the priorities. I don't believe the Bills will take another DT. I think they expect Williams and McCargo to get bigger and better. JMO.

[marauderswr80]

he is a rookie with all due respect. Wait to judge him next year or the year after!

[BillnutinHouston]

We were 19th or 20th against the pass in 2005. This year we were 7th or 8th. The safeties were the biggest difference between the two squads. I'd say that's a significant impact.

 

He got burned at times and at times he missed tackles. He's a rookie. He was also all over the field and in on a lot of plays. His percentage of bad plays was very low considering how much he contributed. He was the team's #2 tackler with 105.

 

Ngata was placed into one of the best Defenses in the league. He also had a solid season for a rookie but he didn't get a sack until week 15. The Bills had one of the worst Ds in the league in 2005. Whitner improved it greatly. Did he make it a good D? No, but I doubt Bruce Smith could have done that. Comparing the the seasons of the two players, I'd still take Whitner.

 

Looking at picks 9-32 for the last draft, I really don't see a lot of players I'd rather have than Whitner. Hali in KC stands out, but if we would have taken him at 8 people would still be saying we took him too high.

 

Good post. OK, I see some points here. Believe it or not, I really WAS looking to be persuaded, and I feel a bit better.

[ganesh]

I wondered from the beginning why we voluntarily created two gaping holes in our defense by cutting Lawyer and Sam Adams just to be able to better utilize the cover two. This just forced us to try to fill those holes (that we created) with a couple of rookies -- one of which was injured most of the season.

 

It kind of reminded me of what Greggo did when he dismantled the number two defense in the league.

 

Having said that, Whitner is a rookie. Whether he was worth the 8th pick in the draft remains to be seen. We should have a much better idea about this next year.

 

Milloy was done. He had lost a step. The coaching staff came in and wanted to build their own team....Milloy was not in there for the long haul. Sam Adams is a locker room disrupter...He was shipped out more for his personal philosophy rather than being a player.

 

However, unlike GW, this regime did not dismantle a working defense...It had to get rid of guys who couldn't play anymore as Milloy and Adams have shown it in Atlanta and Cincinnati

[Ozymandius]

I don't believe the Bills will take another DT. I think they expect Williams and McCargo to get bigger and better. JMO.

The Bills need another DT. Williams and McCargo are givens in the rotation. Tripplett should be there as well because we have committed to him. We need a 4th DT, though.

[Bill from NYC]

Good post. OK, I see some points here. Believe it or not, I really WAS looking to be persuaded, and I feel a bit better.

 

Don't get TOO relaxed. Our rushing defense was so bad that teams didn't have to bother throwing on us as much.

[PIZ]

What you guys are forgetting is that the debate shouldn't be between Whitner and Ngata, it should be between Whitner and Bunkley. Ngata wasn't seen as a fit for the Cover 2 defense. Bunkley was seen as the ideal DT for it. The debate was (until Ngata showed to be the best rookie DT) between choosing Whitner or Bunkley. Bunkley recorded 6 tackles this year. Whitner was the better option and a great pick.

[ganesh]

The Bills need another DT. Williams and McCargo are givens in the rotation. Tripplett should be there as well because we have committed to him. We need a 4th DT, though.

 

Yes. I think this team has seen enough of Tim Anderson and he is not a good fit for this defense. They will have to get another DT to fill the rotation. Also Triplett needs to improve his play. Kyle Williams with a full off season conditioning will be a dominant DT next season.

 

The Bills biggest needs right now are at the LB position....There are just too many unknowns...

[BUFFALOTONE]

I wondered from the beginning why we voluntarily created two gaping holes in our defense by cutting Lawyer and Sam Adams just to be able to better utilize the cover two. This just forced us to try to fill those holes (that we created) with a couple of rookies -- one of which was injured most of the season.

 

It kind of reminded me of what Greggo did when he dismantled the number two defense in the league.

 

Having said that, Whitner is a rookie. Whether he was worth the 8th pick in the draft remains to be seen. We should have a much better idea about this next year.

 

We released Malloy because he cant cover anyone period, the guy was slow and aging. Adams was a wall of fat that took more plays off than Randy Moss.

[2003Contenders]

I still think one of the main reasons we went with Whitner was that he was a consensus pick amongst the front office and coaches. That is, he was a pick that everyone could live with. As far as the notion that Ngata did not fit well into our scheme, I have never really bought that. For one thing, the Bills went hard after Ryan Pickett, a very similar big NT type. While the Cover-2 places emphasis on smaller, quicker linemen, that does NOT mean that there is no need whatsoever for big run stuffers. I have always suspected that there was just this sort of argument going on in the war room at the time of the draft with some coaches calling for Ngata, others calling for Bunkley -- and still others calling for players of other positions. With Bunkley's character issues, it's doubtful that he was ever a serious consideration by the real decision makers (Marv and Jauron). So, like Whitner or not, I do feel that there was some diplomacy in the pick -- which was a far cry from how TD used to do things. Thus, even back in April, you could sense that the mind-set of the organization was changing from a "My way or the highway" approach to more of a "We are family" approach.

 

Getting back to Ngata, since it could be argued that he may have been the better pick... Remember also that the knocks on Ngata coming out of school were:

 

1. He was a 2-down player

 

AND

 

2. He took too many plays off, even when he was on the field.

 

The first point is a valid one, and explains why perhaps the Bills felt that #8 was indeed too high of a selection for a player slotted to appear on a rotational basis governed by down and distance. Thus, Whitner -- a true, every-down player -- was viewed as more of a "bargain" -- and one that the coaches truly viewed as an excellent fit for their system.

 

As for the perception that Ngata was lazy... I think that with so many leaders on that Ravens defense, it was hard for Ngata to EVER take plays off. From that perspective, I'm not so sure that he would have performed as well here without guys like Ray Lewis and Ed Reed (amongst others) getting in his face as needed.

 

I have personally never been unhappy with the Whitner pick. If there is any criticism I have, it is more for the fact that Marv was so enamored with taking him, that he didn't entertain serious offers to trade down. There was some speculation that Denver had offered their #15 and second rounder to move up. Since the front office was convinced that Whitner would be gone by then, I wonder if they should have risked NOT getting him for that extra second round pick. Oh, well. You know what they say about a bird in the hand...

[Mickey]

Really! But to be fair, this is a board for discussion and everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Some are realistic and others have an agenda.

Frankly, I thought this was a damn good draft. We had six starters: Whitner, Simpson, Ellison (who looks like something special, IMO), Pennington (who held his own playing next to a weak player), Kyle Williams (another great pick), and McCargo, who would have played a lot in the rotation (and the verdict is still out on him). We also have Youboty waiting in the wings who may be a steal. The facts are, first year players who are talented, and start as rookies make great strides in their second year after acclimating to the NFL's longer season. I think we will be pleasantly surprised as Whitner becomes an impact player next year, and Kyle Williams puts on some weight and gets stronger. Nobody can judge a draft after the first season, but I would go on record and say that Marv is off to a good start.

 

Next April, with Fletcher-Baker likely gone (who seems bitter), we will need to draft a middle linebacker who is a big tackling machine, a guard (who has to step right in and start--no doubt about it), a tall receiver to be a threat in the red zone, and I believe, a third down back in the mold of Leon Washington to give JP more options on third-and-medium-range downs. Those to me are the priorities. I don't believe the Bills will take another DT. I think they expect Williams and McCargo to get bigger and better. JMO.

 

I don't think there is any question that this draft turned out a lot better than most hereabouts thought it would. It might have been even better if McCargo had not been hurt. We will have to wait another year to see how he does. Whitner and Simpson played very well for rookies. Given how poorly our line was on the inside and how much the safeties had to help shore up a lousy run defense, I think they played remarkably well. With a run defense that weak and with little or no inside pass rush, the secondary was exposed much of the time. There is nothing wrong with either of those guys that a stronger interior line and little more experience won't cure.

 

I think Williams surprised a lot of people and though he may only be a quality back-up, I wouldn't bet against him. Pennington certainly played well for a rookie. If he takes a step to the next level in 2007, this could end up becoming one of our best drafts ever. That assessment may get even rosier when Youboty gets a chance to play. One of the main reasons he didn't get time was because of how well K.Thomas played. I can't fault the GM for making such a good FA pick up that it kept one of his draft picks on the bench.

 

Just after the draft, the mood around here was pretty bleak, hysterical even. Compare that with this discussion on whether Whitner is an "impact" player or merely a solid perennial starter. Pretty big difference.

 

I only hope Marv does this well next year. Frankly, I'd love to see some of the draft gurus who so maligned his last draft eat their words.

[Adam]

Once we have a run stuffer, you will see what Whitner really can do...it was the right pick

[Olaf Fub]

Don't get TOO relaxed. Our rushing defense was so bad that teams didn't have to bother throwing on us as much.

 

There is a three yard per game difference between the two years. We averaged 137.8 running yards per game against us in 2005. In 2006, it was 140.9.

 

You're right that the run D stinks but it stunk, consistently, both years.

[Dibs]

Good post. OK, I see some points here. Believe it or not, I really WAS looking to be persuaded, and I feel a bit better.

Sorry for busting your balls earlier in the thread. To me it seemed your original post was surely typed with agenda attached.....looks like I was wrong.

 

It certainly can't be said that Whitner has been an "impact" rookie.....not enough big plays.....but as others have pointed out, he has been pretty much the most reliable of all the 1st round picks in terms of consistency & minimization of errors.

I've noted that as fans we assume our picks should succeed and be instant impacts(esp. when drafting at #8). The reality is that half of the 1st round don't ever succeed & most of the rest will achieve success after their rookie season(with varying degrees). IMO any 1st round pick that solidifies a position has justified the pick(argument over money aside).....regardless of where in the 1st they were picked.

What does it matter if the #1 pick(Williams) only becomes an occasional probowler if their 2nd rounder(Ryans) becomes an all-pro? In four years time they will have an all-pro LB and a very good DE.....the salaries will adjust accordingly. We place too much emphasis on the top draft gambles & not enough on the concept that it's a team sport....in all aspects.

If the rookies that have looked decent improve rather than regress next season, this would have to be one of the best drafts in Bills history.....regardless of McCargo & Youboty. Pennington, Williams, Ellison, Simpson, Whitner.

Whitner may not be "impact"(yet).....& McCargo might be an injury bust(we'll see).....but what does it matter when looking at a bigger picture?

[C.Biscuit97]

I apologized if I missed this, but our pass defense went from 19th in the NFL to 7th this year. Last year, we started Vincent and Milloy most of the year. This year, we started 2 rookies. Obviously, some other factors can explain the improvement but it is still impressive. Additionally, how many long passing plays did the Bills give up despite having a very inconsistent pass rush? I don't remember many. And yes, DW did get schooled by Heap and Gates. But fact that the coahing staff had the belief in his abilities as a rookie to match up with 2 of the best 5 TEs in the league tells me alot.

 

Sure, I would love to see more big hits and INTs but sometimes you gotta look at the big picture.

[The Tomcat]

Here is your answer to the original topic.

 

Whitner/Simpson