Vince Young

[Dawgg]

I think the key difference between Vick and Vince Young is coaching. Norm Chow coached Leinart, a prototypical passer who was ready for a pro style offense 5 years ago. Despite that, Chow realizes that Young is one of the game's best athletes and has designed the playbook to fit his strengths. You can see it in how they roll him out, give him the option to run and also make use of his ability to throw on the run.

 

With Vick, Greg Knapp has tried to turn him into a West Coast passer -- probably THE worst offense for him to be in -- 5-7 step drops, short quick passes. What most folks refuse to acknowledge was that Vick actually had one of the best deep balls in the country coming out of college. What's he doing now? It's hard to do a whole lot when your team leads the league in dropped passes. As for Flutie, homeboy was almost 40 when he left the Bills!!! The fact that he managed to win and play at a Pro Bowl level in Buffalo... one can only wonder what he could have done had NFL coaches and scouts not banished him to the CFL.

 

 

Flawed how? Because I compared Young to the only guy who's ever resembled his style of play? Sure Flutie "just won" so did Vick early on, so do a ton of these scramblers early on. After a few games, or in some cases seasons, it stops. Coordinators learn tendencies, the hit's start adding up. What did Flutie do after he left Buffalo? What is Vick doing now? I implore you to give me examples of scrambling QB's that sustained play over 5 seasons. I'm not talking about the Donovan McNabs either, I'm talking clear run first QB's. For every one that survived more then a handful of games, or seasons, I could name 100 that haven't. I'll pick this discussion up again a few years from now, until then I'll side with history.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

I wouldn't get rattled against our defense, either. The VY of last week looked much different against the more physical and aggressive Jaguar's defense.

 

But let's give him some MVP awards down the line because he managed to do just enough to beat our amazingly pedestrian defense. Hey wait, we did shut down Joey Harrington.

 

Well, we also confused the living daylights out of Chad Pennington, one of the smartest QB's in the NFL. I never seen him look so bad. Our pass defense has been pretty solid all season. For some reason, it failed us at the most crucial point in the season.

[RLflutie7]

The hype surrounding Young is the exact same thing people said about Vick. I didn't buy into Vick then, and I'm not buying into Young now. He can be General Patton for all I care; only a select few scrambling QB's have shown they can sustain success for more then a few years. The only guy in recent history who's adapted was McNair and we all saw how often he was injured. The hits add up, the defensive coordinators learn there tendencies, and the potential for a career ending injury is one hit away. The bottom-line is he will eventually have to adapt to make it in the NFL for the long term. As history taught us the odds of that happening aren't high. Doing exactly what Vick did to us last year doesn't make them any higher.

 

Flame Away

 

 

I think your agrument has some merit. I made a post about black QBs running too much awhile back and I pretty much stick with that argument.

 

Some say why compare Vick and Young. Implying that doing so is because they are black and that's the only reason when it's cleary not.

 

My point is that it seems many black QBs have that propensity to run first rather than throw the ball and it's backed up by looking at the stats. Vick has 120 rush attempts and Young has 80 and there's one game to go. Bobby Douglas had 141 rush attempts to set his now broken rushing record for a QB.

 

Some would say I'm the biggest idiot because Flutie had 88 rush attempts in 1999. I think Flutie was forced to rush the ball too much in 99 because a bad offensive line and because the Bills didn't get much production from the running backs.

 

 

Furthermore, Vick's teammate (Gandy) comes out and says black QBs are coached differently. i.e. told to make a play: translation "run the ball" when all else breaks down. That may be true, time will tell.

 

I think a QB running a lot is an indicator that something is not exactly right.

[BuffOrange]

The hype surrounding Young is the exact same thing people said about Vick. I didn't buy into Vick then, and I'm not buying into Young now. He can be General Patton for all I care; only a select few scrambling QB's have shown they can sustain success for more then a few years. The only guy in recent history who's adapted was McNair and we all saw how often he was injured. The hits add up, the defensive coordinators learn there tendencies, and the potential for a career ending injury is one hit away. The bottom-line is he will eventually have to adapt to make it in the NFL for the long term. As history taught us the odds of that happening aren't high. Doing exactly what Vick did to us last year doesn't make them any higher.

 

Flame Away

 

Well no argument here. Everyone is trying to distinguish what makes Young so superior to Vick, forgetting that the exact same things were being said about Vick in 2002 when Atl became the first team to win a playoff game @Lambeau (6 GB turnovers helped, but nobody ever mentioned that). "This guy just wins", "he raises the level of play around him", etc.

Not that I'd hate having him as my QB given his potential and the putrid state of QB's in the league, but conventional wisdom that a young talented player will get better each year doesn't always work out that way.

IMO the 2007 Titans will be a good candidate as this year's preseason overhyped Dolphins.

[ATBNG]

Young's passer rating in the fourth quarter during this winning streak has been absurd.

 

I also think that he's a better runner than Vick. He's not faster than Vick, but Young's downfield vision is as good as I've ever seen for a QB. He's not going to take the kill shots that Vick has because of that and his size advantage.

 

He reminds me more of Brady than Vick. I expect him to solve all the knocks on his arm and reach his maximum potential. There are some pretty impressive pelts on the wall during this winning streak for a rookie. Put me in the "real deal" club.

[Rico]

VY right now reminds me more of the early Steve Young than anyone else, except far better. It took SY quite some time to develop after becoming a pro (didn't show too much in 2 years with the USFL or 2 years with Tampa Bay... plus sitting & watching the greatest QB to ever play the game in SF). VY appears to be ahead on the learning curve in comparison... only time will tell if he'll reach the same level of play, but I think he's on the way.

[YOOOOOO]

Compared to Brady and SYoung cmon now.....

 

Brady comparsion might be the worst I've heard

 

 

and besides there last names being Young, Steve and Vince have not one thing in common

[generaLee83]

Well, we also confused the living daylights out of Chad Pennington, one of the smartest QB's in the NFL. I never seen him look so bad. Our pass defense has been pretty solid all season. For some reason, it failed us at the most crucial point in the season.

 

This defensive failure was reminiscent of the Bills v. Steelers in 2004.

 

Just when you needed it to come up big, you had a dump taken on you.

[Mikie2times]

I think your agrument has some merit. I made a post about black QBs running too much awhile back and I pretty much stick with that argument.

 

Some say why compare Vick and Young. Implying that doing so is because they are black and that's the only reason when it's cleary not.

 

My point is that it seems many black QBs have that propensity to run first rather than throw the ball and it's backed up by looking at the stats. Vick has 120 rush attempts and Young has 80 and there's one game to go. Bobby Douglas had 141 rush attempts to set his now broken rushing record for a QB.

 

Some would say I'm the biggest idiot because Flutie had 88 rush attempts in 1999. I think Flutie was forced to rush the ball too much in 99 because a bad offensive line and because the Bills didn't get much production from the running backs.

Furthermore, Vick's teammate (Gandy) comes out and says black QBs are coached differently. i.e. told to make a play: translation "run the ball" when all else breaks down. That may be true, time will tell.

 

I think a QB running a lot is an indicator that something is not exactly right.

People with racist agendas discuss how smart a QB needs to be, and how few black QB's you see in the NFL. They conclude the black player isn't smart enough to be a QB. This couldn't be further from the truth. The problems start for these guys in terms of NFL preparation right from the beginning. It is not the primary goal of a high school/college coach to prepare a player for the NFL. The primary goal is always winning. If you're a coach you want to put your team in the best position to win each game no matter what level of play you’re at.

 

In high school the athletic QB's can have more success running then passing. The athletes just aren't good enough to stop the scrambling QB's from running or optioning. These coaches aren't racist, they’re just trying to win, and winning is more likely when you use the most consistent risk free method of moving the football. A similar story happens in college, especially in the case of the super QB athlete like Vick and Young. The whole time these guys could have NFL caliber arm strength, but it's never harnessed like it would be for the pocket passer. They're offering a more effective way of moving the football, which offers a more consistent way to win.

 

This continues being true all the way until the NFL. Now everybody is fast and athletic. The hit's and speed in which the game is played is mind boggling. The athletic QB can no longer do the things he did for the past 6-8 years in high school and college. They must now learn to win on the merits of their arms. That's very difficult for pocket guys who’ve already been doing it for 6-8 years. Its borderline impossible for the athletic QB to do it with a fraction of the experience. We eventually saw Vicks athletic ability give way to his inability to read and throw. It took longer then normal being that he is not just a good athlete but a world class athlete. The same can be said about Vince in terms of athleticism. He still hasn't showed us he can win on the merits of his arm, and that alone. Until then nobody can say with certainty that he will be any different. I see the same quality’s as the rest of you in terms of leadership but it all boils down to how he was brought up as a player, and what that has meant progression wise for others in a similar situation.

[Chilly]

The hit's and speed in which the game is played is mind boggling. The athletic QB can no longer do the things he did for the past 6-8 years in high school and college. They must now learn to win on the merits of their arms. That's very difficult for pocket guys who’ve already been doing it for 6-8 years. Its borderline impossible for the athletic QB to do it with a fraction of the experience. We eventually saw Vicks athletic ability give way to his inability to read and throw. It took longer then normal being that he is not just a good athlete but a world class athlete. The same can be said about Vince in terms of athleticism. He still hasn't showed us he can win on the merits of his arm, and that alone. Until then nobody can say with certainty that he will be any different. I see the same quality’s as the rest of you in terms of leadership but it all boils down to how he was brought up as a player, and what that has meant progression wise for others in a similar situation.

 

I can't disagree with you more here.

 

Vince didn't solely win games with his legs in college. Vince threw for over 3,000 yards last year to go with his 1,000 rushing yards at Texas.

 

Games from that 2005 season, against decent opponents, include:

 

- #4 Ohio State where he passed for 270 yards, 2 TDs, 2 INTs to go with his 75 yards rushing.

- #24 Colorado where he passed for 336 yards, 2 TDs, 0 INTs to go with his 58 rushing yards.

- Oklahoma where he passed for 241 yards, 3 TDs, 0 INTs to go with 45 rushing yards.

- #2 USC where he passed for 267 yards to go with his 200 yards rushing.

- #10 Texas Tech where he passed for 239 yards, 2 TDs, 2 INTs to go with 45 yards rushing.

 

People are stuck on painting a picture of Vince just running the ball over and over, which isn't true at all. Vince adapts his play to each game, which is what makes him such a hard guy to defend against. His passing has the biggest question marks out of his whole game, but its not as if he hasn't won games with his arm before.

 

In contrast, Vick, in his 2 years as starter at Va. Tech, threw for 1840 and 1234 yards. Vick simply didn't throw all that much, while Vince got the chance to throw and prove he can win games with his arm.

 

Vince's senior year by itself was only 36 yards short of Vick's entire collegiate career.

 

Vince Young's arm is not the issue. The issue is adapting to a different style of offense and having multiple reads against harder coverages in the NFL, and he will struggle with that in same games until he gets more experience. Thats the area Vince needs to improve upon.

[Mikie2times]

I can't disagree with you more here.

 

Vince didn't solely win games with his legs in college. Vince threw for over 3,000 yards last year to go with his 1,000 rushing yards at Texas.

 

Games from that 2005 season, against decent opponents, include:

 

- #4 Ohio State where he passed for 270 yards, 2 TDs, 2 INTs to go with his 75 yards rushing.

- #24 Colorado where he passed for 336 yards, 2 TDs, 0 INTs to go with his 58 rushing yards.

- Oklahoma where he passed for 241 yards, 3 TDs, 0 INTs to go with 45 rushing yards.

- #2 USC where he passed for 267 yards to go with his 200 yards rushing.

- #10 Texas Tech where he passed for 239 yards, 2 TDs, 2 INTs to go with 45 yards rushing.

 

People are stuck on painting a picture of Vince just running the ball over and over, which isn't true at all. Vince adapts his play to each game, which is what makes him such a hard guy to defend against. His passing has the biggest question marks out of his whole game, but its not as if he hasn't won games with his arm before.

 

In contrast, Vick, in his 2 years as starter at Va. Tech, threw for 1840 and 1234 yards. Vick simply didn't throw all that much, while Vince got the chance to throw and prove he can win games with his arm.

 

Vince's senior year by itself was only 36 yards short of Vick's entire collegiate career.

 

Vince Young's arm is not the issue. The issue is adapting to a different style of offense and having multiple reads against harder coverages in the NFL, and he will struggle with that in same games until he gets more experience. Thats the area Vince needs to improve upon.

Lot's of scramblers can have success throwing in high school or college. It's the result of teams lacking the athletic ability to stop the scrambler from scrambling in base formations. Teams dare the scrambler to win throwing because they most certainly will win if you can't take away their legs. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes you end up letting the guy run and pass all over you. In the NFL teams don't have to take such drastic measures to take away a QB's running ability. At the least they will let a QB rip off some long runs because they know it can't be done consistently enough to win. So to be good long term, and consistently you need to be able to win on the merits of your arm, and your arm alone. If in a couple of seasons Vince Young can show that in the NFL I'll eat crow by the gallon. But nothing he's done at Texas, or in high school, or thus far in the NFL shows that.

[Chilly]

Lot's of scramblers can have success throwing in high school or college. It's the result of teams lacking the athletic ability to stop the scrambler from scrambling in base formations. Teams dare the scrambler to win throwing because they most certainly will win if you can't take away their legs. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes you end up letting the guy run and pass all over you. In the NFL teams don't have to take such drastic measures to take away a QB's running ability. At the least they will let a QB rip off some long runs because they know it can't be done consistently enough to win. So to be good long term, and consistently you need to be able to win on the merits of your arm, and your arm alone. If in a couple of seasons Vince Young can show that in the NFL I'll eat crow by the gallon. But nothing he's done at Texas, or in high school, or thus far in the NFL shows that.

 

I think I might have misunderstood what you were saying. When you said "They must now learn to win on the merits of their arms", it seemed to say that they hadn't won on the merits of their arms previously.

 

I'd have agreed with you if it was worded more like this post, which seemed to be more that Vince needs to learn to read defenses and pass the ball at an NFL level rather than a college level.