jimmy_from_north_buffalo Posted December 22, 2006 Author Share Posted December 22, 2006 1) I agree that the debt and the dependence on foreign oil are both unacceptable. But the tax cuts need not have added to the debt. It's the combination of tax cuts and the complete absence of spending discipline which has created massive deficits. My own preference is to keep the tax cuts intact, and develop at least some spending discipline. Because if you try to do things the other way--let the government spend what it wants, and tax enough to keep up--you'll never have enough tax revenue. 2) As for the Socialist programs to which you're referring, FDR and LBJ did far more to attack capitalism than they did to save it. 875013[/snapback] 1) Ending the Iraq fiasco would be a good place to start. I would perfere to cancel the tax cuts altogether and think more long term, like paying down the debt. Sure, its an enmormous monster, but at least for every portion that gets paid down you save some on interest payments. And a growing economy will also 'naturally' shrink the debt. 2) The New Deal was an attempt to get the capitalist economy moving again, not to destroy capitalism. FDIC was a measure that successfully strengthened the most capitalistic of capitalist enterprises, the banks. Many capitalists hated things like the Wagner act, increased taxation, regulations and such, but with people starving on the streets, that's too bad for them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevbeau Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 The factory jobs closed there and moved to China. That's a fact and it can't be blamed on Liberal programs and especially Unions, cause they don't have them. 874825[/snapback] Yeah it's just killing the area. You're right, unrealistic wages and benefit packages have nothing to do with manufacturing jobs been relocated elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy_from_north_buffalo Posted December 22, 2006 Author Share Posted December 22, 2006 1) Cyclical argument based on the money laundering principle. Your way is always going to end badly. I'd try and explain it to you but for whatever reason you liberal lemmings just can't understand that giving gigantic amounts of cash to a faceless entity with no accountability has never worked in history and it never will. 2) No, I'm saying the New Deal was a virtual bust. You're correct that massive government spending on infrastructure (factories, etc) is what actually ended the depression in the short term (it also plunged us into the record deficits of the Cold War, but no liberal will ever admit what a Geopolitical buffoon the great FDR was). 3) Roosevelt's socialistic fiscal policies had almost no positive effect at the end of the day, and their long term affects have been disasterous, despite the inability of you liberals to get the correlation of perhaps the worst President in US history. 4) Which has been shot all to hell. Wait until the next wave of drug price markups because of the brilliant "Prescription Drug Benefit" leftislation. 5) Is it really hard to understand that Buffalo is exactly the kind of place you liberals will end up with if you actually get what you're pining for? Yeah, I'm in the political wilderness. Enjoy your taxation and 95% incumbent rate with with a worse standard of living than was available in the same area 30 years ago - all with complete liberal government control. 875082[/snapback] 1) No, its your way of ignoring the fact that the tax cuts have ballooned the deficit. 2) Well you are dead wrong, then. The New Deal did just what you said about the World War Two spending, it created billions of dollars of basic infrastructure. The TVA alone created the foundation of economic growth in much of the South. Check out the history of Nashville before and after the Great Depression. Two different worlds. Taking it a step further, that economic growth in the South was the real reason the Civil Rights movement was possible, IMO. 3) Poppy rooster. More proof that propaganda works 4) Sure, lets not give our elderly the medicine they need to live. Brilliant! 5) And following your ideas will lead us to the capitalist's paradise of China. Ya, the air will be unbreathable, the water will kill you if you drink it, but hey, at least everyone will have low paying jobs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy_from_north_buffalo Posted December 22, 2006 Author Share Posted December 22, 2006 Yeah it's just killing the area. You're right, unrealistic wages and benefit packages have nothing to do with manufacturing jobs been relocated elsewhere. 875092[/snapback] Damn living wage! A liberal socialist plot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 1) No, its your way of ignoring the fact that the tax cuts have ballooned the deficit. Sure. Giving money back to the individual is always a recipe for disaster. We just need to give all our money to Washington and we'll have a chicken in every pot, a roof over every head, and an education for all who desire them. Hilarious. 2) Well you are dead wrong, then. The New Deal did just what you said about the World War Two spending, it created billions of dollars of basic infrastructure. The TVA alone created the foundation of economic growth in much of the South. Check out the history of Nashville before and after the Great Depression. Two different worlds. Taking it a step further, that economic growth in the South was the real reason the Civil Rights movement was possible, IMO. It mostly created short term debt and long term insolvence. But it did give idiots something to hold on to for 60 years as a shining beacon - as long as you don't pull back the covers. FWIW, I don't have a problem with TVA because it was at least Constitutional (infrastructure clause). 3) Poppy rooster. More proof that propaganda works Propaganda? You mean the way Roosevelt deftly handled the Soviet Union by giving them everything they asked for didn't lead to the Cold War? 4) Sure, lets not give our elderly the medicine they need to live. Brilliant! Newsflash, Sparky: Big business is smarter than big government, and with the added support of the ignorant it will continue to line the pockets of the immoral and corrupt. The more money big government poors into big business, the more money big business will demand (and get). It has nothing to do with "insert your favorite cause". Everything the government gets it's fingers into, from education to health care, is certain to grow in cost at a rate that absolutely pummels inflation. The statistics are available everywhere. 5) And following your ideas will lead us to the capitalist's paradise of China. Ya, the air will be unbreathable, the water will kill you if you drink it, but hey, at least everyone will have low paying jobs! 875123[/snapback] Last time I checked, China runs on the liberal playbook - with virtually all the wealth controlled by the government. That has nothing to do with a market economy or limited government, Jimbo. In fact, it's pretty much what your party wishes for - without the bad headlines about human rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 Damn living wage! A liberal socialist plot 875124[/snapback] Ooh, more buzzwords. "Living wage". You're right. Every non-skilled employee should live in a mansion with a new Caddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy_from_north_buffalo Posted December 22, 2006 Author Share Posted December 22, 2006 Propaganda? You mean the way Roosevelt deftly handled the Soviet Union by giving them everything they asked for didn't lead to the Cold War? 875143[/snapback] Most of your post is right wing talking point nonsense, but this gem has to be addressed. I understand you know very little about history, but please try and add to this statement. What did Roosevelt 'give' to Stalin that led to the Cold War? I think I know what you are thinking about, but please, let's hear what you mean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy_from_north_buffalo Posted December 22, 2006 Author Share Posted December 22, 2006 Ooh, more buzzwords. "Living wage". You're right. Every non-skilled employee should live in a mansion with a new Caddy. 875147[/snapback] No hyperbole here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 Most of your post is right wing talking point nonsense, but this gem has to be addressed. I understand you know very little about history, but please try and add to this statement. What did Roosevelt 'give' to Stalin that led to the Cold War? I think I know what you are thinking about, but please, let's hear what you mean 875152[/snapback] I know nothing about history and have to explain how Roosevelt's blunders started the Cold War? Oh, hell no. How about signing the incredibly vague Yalta Agreement, which was so poorly written that his own chief advisor told him the Soviets could imperialize all they wanted without technically breaking it? "I know Bill, but it's the best I can do for Poland at this time." How about turning over "dealing with Stalin" to the fledgling United Nations, after ensuring that the Soviets would have enough power in the body to stifle any actual reform? FDR was as good with Stalin as Chamberlain was with Hitler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 1) Ending the Iraq fiasco would be a good place to start. I would perfere to cancel the tax cuts altogether and think more long term, like paying down the debt. Sure, its an enmormous monster, but at least for every portion that gets paid down you save some on interest payments. And a growing economy will also 'naturally' shrink the debt. 2) The New Deal was an attempt to get the capitalist economy moving again, not to destroy capitalism. FDIC was a measure that successfully strengthened the most capitalistic of capitalist enterprises, the banks. Many capitalists hated things like the Wagner act, increased taxation, regulations and such, but with people starving on the streets, that's too bad for them 875083[/snapback] I agree we need to start paying down the debt; but that has to start with the creation of at least some spending discipline. Without spending discipline, additional tax revenue will translate directly into more government spending and no debt repayments. Under FDR, the U.S. endured the longest depression in its history. If people were starving on the street, it was largely because FDR was paying farmers to destroy food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bungee Jumper Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 I know nothing about history and have to explain how Roosevelt's blunders started the Cold War? Oh, hell no. How about signing the incredibly vague Yalta Agreement, which was so poorly written that his own chief advisor told him the Soviets could imperialize all they wanted without technically breaking it? "I know Bill, but it's the best I can do for Poland at this time." How about turning over "dealing with Stalin" to the fledgling United Nations, after ensuring that the Soviets would have enough power in the body to stifle any actual reform? FDR was as good with Stalin as Chamberlain was with Hitler. 875172[/snapback] In FDR's (and Truman's) defense, there wasn't a hell of a lot they could do about the Soviet sphere of influence. The Iron Curtain, at the time, was very literal, in the form of several tens of thousands of tanks. FDR's biggest fault was probably that he looked at winning the war, and not winning the post-war like Churchill and Stalin did. But enough of that. Get back to beating up Jimmah on his ridiculous fiscal nonsense. "Tax breaks cause deficits." Last I checked, spending caused deficits. Spend less, you don't go in to debt. At least, that's the way it works with every single balance sheet I've ever read, from my credit card statements to GM's annual statement...but I confess, I'm not current on the generally accepted accounting principles of wealth redistribution... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 FDR's biggest fault was probably that he looked at winning the war, and not winning the post-war like Churchill and Stalin did. That's exactly right. There were a variety of things FDR could have done differently, far in advance of Yalta. Signing that mess was just the icing on the cake. Getting into bed with Stalin ranks close to the top of the "Mother of All Blunders". But enough of that. Get back to beating up Jimmah on his ridiculous fiscal nonsense. "Tax breaks cause deficits." Last I checked, spending caused deficits. Spend less, you don't go in to debt. At least, that's the way it works with every single balance sheet I've ever read, from my credit card statements to GM's annual statement...but I confess, I'm not current on the generally accepted accounting principles of wealth redistribution... 875237[/snapback] That's pointless when they're so brainwashed. Frankly, I'm sick of wasting the time with people who are just so damn clueless as not to understand basic finance, but instead parrot the very people who are stealing from them. "Thank you, mister burgler. Oh, but you forgot to take the family jewels from the false drawer in the refridgerator." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 That's exactly right. There were a variety of things FDR could have done differently, far in advance of Yalta. Signing that mess was just the icing on the cake. Getting into bed with Stalin ranks close to the top of the "Mother of All Blunders". Amen to that. Countering Soviet expansionism simply wasn't a priority for FDR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted December 24, 2006 Share Posted December 24, 2006 The facts are we as a nation--rich, middle class and poor--are wealthier, healthier and have more free time than before the social programs of the New Deal and Great Society came along. And you think that is a result of the 'Great Society' programs??? Wow, I think you just assumed the #1 rank on the PPP retard list. Good work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted December 25, 2006 Share Posted December 25, 2006 You know, it's awfully rare that you and I are on the same side of an idiot-bashing contest. Who are you, and where's the real RkFast? 873513[/snapback] Even a blind squirrel nails one once in a while. I mean...the hurdles jimmah's throwing up there arent exactly a mile high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyshaw Posted December 25, 2006 Share Posted December 25, 2006 I think I became considerably more stupid as a result of reading this rather unproductive post. Does anyone think before they post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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