Fail to re-sign Clements?

[Oneonta Buffalo Fan]

Forget about Clements. LETS WORRY ABOUT SUNDAY'S GAME FIRST.

[Bill from NYC]

I really don't think drafting a CB high is such a bad thing, especially considering the marketplace for them these days.  The bottom line is that top corners are very expensive in today's market. Winfield's contract was borderline insanity.  The Skins are paying through the roof for Springs and the Vikes doled out an equally insane contract for Fred Smoot -- all solid cover corners, but nowhere near the "great" category.  With that being said, it might make sense to draft a corner with a high pick if he is deemed a worthy pick.  The free agent market has been very good to teams willing to spend on defensive linemen and linebackers and they come at much more reasonable prices.

 

For example, the Bills were able to retool their entire linebacking corps via free agency witih Fletch, Posey and Spikes and went from having one of the worst LB corps to one of the best.  Fletch and Spikes both probably got a combined $15-18M in signing bonuses and we're talking about guys who are in the PRIME of their career. 

 

Nate Clements will command close to $20M by himself!

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I do not take your points lightly because they make a sense.

 

I disagree that the Winfield deal was a bad one because of the way it was structured. They can get rid of him tomorrow and take little to no hit, and this is never bad imo, but I am getting off track.

 

In any event, yes, corners DO cost money, but as you saw with Hutchinson, so do guards. The UFA market will be lean, but I suspect that the contracts at all positions (again, watch what Kelsay gets) will shock us, given the new CBA.

 

At the same time, I make the case that the Bills have become a farm team of sorts in terms of drafting first round corners, only to watch them walk to other teams. This is OK if it works, but it has failed, and miserably. T. Smith, Burress, Winfield, and now Nate? When is enough just that, enough?

 

Look at what our team is doing since the OL improved, and there is still a need to get better. All I know about Preston is that he is better than an old, injured CV. I am not sure what to think of Pennington, but hopeful. Gandy? He is also a UFA, and he is too weak and lanky for my tastes at LG. In summary, we need help at OG.

Switching over to LB, London is getting older, and who knows what TKO will look like next year? Things could get bad in a hurry, and an infusion of talent is needed there as well.

 

My point is that I see zero need to keep repeating a pattern that has failed. Besides, what about Youboty? Shouldn't we see what he can do?

 

Anyway, thanks for the good football talk.

[ganesh]

I do not take your points lightly because they make a sense.

 

My point is that I see zero need to keep repeating a pattern that has failed. Besides, what about Youboty? Shouldn't we see what he can do?

 

Anyway, thanks for the good football talk.

873897[/snapback]

 

That is why I think the Bills need to go with the Best available player in the 1st round and then get the need picks in later rounds...

 

If there is a guy who can come and start right away at a position whether it is CB, OG or LB, then we should draft that person. If that person happens to be a CB, then so be it. Our line is the weakest link on this team and it was exposed quite often in the 1st 9 weeks of the season. However, we have to build some continuity at all positions and we have to give time to certain players....I think with their performance both Gandy and Preston at guard and Pennington at RT have earned the right to be tried before being sent to the Recycle Bin. What the Bills have to do is plan for the future by drafting adequate replacements for these guys...

 

Then in the 2nd/3rd rounds we should concentrate on getting linemen. These guys are likely to take over a team starting position in about 4 to 6 weeks into the season.

 

As Marv said you sign your own Free Agents first. If Marv and Jauron think that Clements and Fletcher are BUILDING BLOCKS for this franchise, they will get it done. I think Wilson has enough trust in Marv to see this through.

 

I think we re-sign Clements, Fletcher and Gandy....We won't have enough cash to offer Kelsay a contract and he will go to the highest bidder...I can very easily see him get a contract similar to Triplett (15M over 5 years) which we will be hard pressed to match.

[Dibs]

.....drafting first round corners, only to watch them walk to other teams. This is OK if it works, but it has failed, and miserably. T. Smith, Burress, Winfield, and now Nate? When is enough just that, enough?.....

 

My point is that I see zero need to keep repeating a pattern that has failed....

 

873897[/snapback]

 

I think this is spurious logic. I'm not saying that we have not drafted 1st round DBs at a higher rate than the norm.....nor am I saying that we have not failed. What I am saying is that it would impossible to prove a correlation to the two concepts.

One could just as easily say......

"Drafting first & second round DLmen and making sure they don't walk to other teams is OK if it works, but it has failed, and miserably. Flowers, Schobel, Denney, Kelsay, and now McCargo."

or....& you'll love this one.....it's within the same time frame.....

"Drafting first round OLmen in the 1st round is OK if it works, but it has failed, and miserably. Fina, Brown, and Williams."

 

I think the key point is that we have not built a strong team over the last decade. Success of a team simply cannot be determined by how one position is handled.

 

On top of that, that was then.....this is now. I expect the decisions made to be based on what this team needs NOW without the spectre of history hanging over the decisions. If it is going to make sense(& Dawgg made some logical points) to draft(yet another) DB in the 1st, that is what I would expect us to do. To not do it because we have 'done it too many times before' would be detrimental to the team.

I'm assuming (at this point) that drafting a DB in the 1st will not be the most logical thing for us to do.....but if we get a top FA OG, etc, etc, etc.....

[Chilly]

Nevermind that we have two tackles who have been the anchors of the better line play in Pennington and Peters, both of whom couldn't even sniff the 2nd round's jockstrap.

[Orton's Arm]

That is why I think the Bills need to go with the Best available player in the 1st round and then get the need picks in later rounds...

 

If there is a guy who can come and start right away at a position whether it is CB, OG or LB, then we should draft that person.  If that person happens to be a CB, then so be it.  Our line is the weakest link on this team and it was exposed quite often in the 1st 9 weeks of the season.  However, we have to  build some continuity at all positions and we have to give time to certain players....I think with their performance both Gandy and Preston at guard and Pennington at RT have earned the right to be tried before being sent to the Recycle Bin. What the Bills have to do is plan for the future by drafting adequate replacements for these guys...

 

Then in the 2nd/3rd rounds we should concentrate on getting linemen.  These guys are likely to take over a team starting position in about 4 to 6 weeks into the season.

 

As Marv said you sign your own Free Agents first.  If Marv and Jauron think that Clements and Fletcher are BUILDING BLOCKS for this franchise, they will get it done.  I think Wilson has enough trust in Marv to see this through.

 

I think we re-sign Clements, Fletcher and Gandy....We won't have enough cash to offer Kelsay a contract and he will go to the highest bidder...I can very easily see him get a contract similar to Triplett  (15M over 5 years) which we will be hard pressed to match.

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I think what Bill is getting at is that it doesn't make sense to draft a player in the first round if your plan is to only keep him 4 - 6 years. It's too hard to build something solid if your building blocks slip away from you that quickly.

 

Suppose the Bills were to lose Clements to free agency, while at the same time drafting a CB in the first round. If the Bills' front office lets Clements slip away this year, shouldn't we also expect them to let that new 1st round CB slip away in five or six years?

 

At some point, the Bills have to get off the hamster wheel Bill described. You shouldn't draft CBs in the first round unless there's the willingness and ability to keep them in Buffalo for the vast majority of their careers. The Bills need to display both things with Clements. If they won't or can't get it done with Clements, why expect them to get it done with the next first round CB?

[Dibs]

I think what Bill is getting at is that it doesn't make sense to draft a player in the first round if your plan is to only keep him 4 - 6 years. It's too hard to build something solid if your building blocks slip away from you that quickly.

 

Suppose the Bills were to lose Clements to free agency, while at the same time drafting a CB in the first round. If the Bills' front office lets Clements slip away this year, shouldn't we also expect them to let that new 1st round CB slip away in five or six years?

 

At some point, the Bills have to get off the hamster wheel Bill described. You shouldn't draft CBs in the first round unless there's the willingness and ability to keep them in Buffalo for the vast majority of their careers. The Bills need to display both things with Clements. If they won't or can't get it done with Clements, why expect them to get it done with the next first round CB?

874737[/snapback]

Ahhh, but what if you require a CB of say.....top 15 caliber, not top 5 caliber? Maybe the problem has been that we have continually drafted too well when drafting CBs. The #12 CB in the league would not demand the huge contract that a top 5 would and we would be able to re-sign them without spending more on the position than is potentially planned.

I know this sounds ridiculous but.....I feel the Colts have suffered from a similar situation but in relation to their offensive starters. They have drafted exceedingly well on Offence over the last decade & to keep those players(all in the top 5) they have had to forgo other areas(i.e. defence).

In perspective to us.....if NC had not come on gangbusters this season & instead played basic good solid CB, his asking price would be that level lower.....well....he would probably still ask but he would find that only upper echelon get the top dollars. We would then be able to sign him to a BIG contract that did not break the bank.

Keep in mind people.....we will have to fork out BIG deals soon to JP, Evans, McGahee(or we let him go & use a 1st to try & replace)....even Peters will have to be reworked in 2 years if he is as good as people say & we want to keep him happy. A top FA OG & maybe someone else.....the money will soon be spent & top, top dollar for a CB just might mean we don't keep ?????(a brighter star).

All that being said, I'm hopeful we do re-sign Nate. I trust the guys that know all about where the money gets spent will do as good a job as those selecting the players & those coaching them.

[ganesh]

I think what Bill is getting at is that it doesn't make sense to draft a player in the first round if your plan is to only keep him 4 - 6 years. It's too hard to build something solid if your building blocks slip away from you that quickly.

 

 

874737[/snapback]

 

Holcombs Arm,

 

Dibs had a nice explanation...Adding to that,

 

I think if you did get 4-6 best years out of a young player, then you have already exceeded the expectation on that draft pick. As Dibs said once you have groomed that player to be a top-5 in his position, you have to be able to pay him at the going rate for a top-5 at that position. Unfortunately, the Bills cannot financially compete with the likes of Miami, Washington, Dallas, New York. Those media markets are just too big...

 

I keep going back to the Steelers for many of my examples, because they epitomize how to run a NFL team successfully and have proved that with the product they put on the field. Since I also live in Pittsburgh, I see more of them. The Steelers never pay too big a contract to one single player. Even with their best player in Hines Ward they played hard ball forcing him to miss training camp last season. They finally squeezed a workable contract with him. You have to remember that Ward was coming of back to back pro bowl seasons before that and was considered one of the best at that position.

 

This year they are balking at Joey Porters request for a contract....Porter while not consistent, makes key plays during key times in a game. Remember the whipping Manning got last year in the playoffs. However, he is 31 and the Steelers are not willing to throw big money at him....They consider that they have been able to make use of the 5 best years of Porter and it is time to move on.

 

Beginning of this year, they let their starting safety Chris Hope go to the Titans for a 20M+ contract. Hope was an excellent player in their system. Similarly the guy who threw the perfect pass in superbowl XL that allowed hometown boy Bettis to retire with a superbowl in hand, Randal El was let go for a 25M contract with the Redskins.

 

Two years ago they let go of 3 starters from their offensive line (these were guys who replaced injured starters and went on to have great season) because they would have just killed the steelers cap to be retained and yet they have not missed a beat.

 

It is the nature of the beast.....Mid level teams like the Steelers and low cap level teams like the Bills don't have a chance to compete with the New Yorks and Washington when it comes to FA. These teams have to use the Draft primarily to fill their voids. Right now Clements is outside the realms of the Bills and they will have to move on.