billsfanmiami(oh) Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 As a son of two born-agains, I am a true non-believer. Here's why: 1) If God is both infallible and good, then HOW could he create an imperfect humanity? That is, unless he's a masochist and likes to see people suffer. That would make him evil rather than good. That's the first inherent contradiction. 2) Secondly, if God existed and God was indeed good, why would he allow people to slaughter each other over his very name? 3) What's more likely...a God that created man in his own image or a man that created God in his own image? 859441[/snapback] 1 &2 of your argument can pretty much be refuted by two words: free will. Giving humans the ultimate gift of free will simultaneously opens the door for evil. Also, it sounds like your ideas are based on the "typical" god of Christian religions. I think the question is more about if there is any kind of supreme being or creator that is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfanmiami(oh) Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 Sure, I believe something had to create us. I love the hardocre ones who fight evolution and creationism. Is it possible that a god created a creature that we evolved from? My theory is that something had to create the big bang so why couldn't it have been god? He may not be what we picture, but something had to create everything. Maybe he created the monkey that we evolved from. Its foolish to believe evolution didn't exist because we have proof looking at history and other animals. But something still had to create what we came from. I find it more confusing to figure out WHY we were created. 859855[/snapback] One of my biggest pet peeves is the staunch "creationists" that try to say evolution is bs and "I didn't come from a monkey" or "how come a monkey doesn't decide to walk on two feet today?" etc. I'll bet just about everyone who has been educated about evolution would agree that it is real. Just study some bacteria cells in culture or a virus over a number of generations and try to say that evolution doesn't happen. One of the biggest misconceptions about evolution is that evolution makes predictions or is forward looking in some way. Evolution is defined as changes in allele frequencies over time. It is really just a word to describe the result of various processes that produce the various changes in organisms over time. There are no goals of evolution. Despite what you see on tv at 4 am, belief in God and belief in evolution, are NOT mutually exclusive. Most scientists actually believe in God. I know for me at least, the more I learned about how many things must have come together in just the right way to produce the world we know, the evidence for a creator piled up accordingly. edit: to clarify, by "creationist" I mean someone who believes literally in the story of creation from traditional Christian literature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daquixers_is_back Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 As a son of two born-agains, I am a true non-believer. Here's why: 1) If God is both infallible and good, then HOW could he create an imperfect humanity? That is, unless he's a masochist and likes to see people suffer. That would make him evil rather than good. That's the first inherent contradiction. 2) Secondly, if God existed and God was indeed good, why would he allow people to slaughter each other over his very name? 859441[/snapback] Both of these questions are easily answered in Genesis 1) He did NOT create an imperfect human, but he did give them free will. As long as they did NOT SIN, then everything would be OK. But they were tempted and they DID sin. They brought themselves to imperfectness. 2) Free will. And it depends on which God you are talking about. The God who's Son is Jesus? I dont know many who kill over his name. Or are you talking about the god of Osama Bin Laden? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcjeff215 Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 Both of these questions are easily answered in Genesis 1) He did NOT create an imperfect human, but he did give them free will. As long as they did NOT SIN, then everything would be OK. But they were tempted and they DID sin. They brought themselves to imperfectness. 2) Free will. And it depends on which God you are talking about. The God who's Son is Jesus? I dont know many who kill over his name. Or are you talking about the god of Osama Bin Laden? 860042[/snapback] I've a question. I mean absolutely no disrespect, so please don't take this the wrong way. When trying to counter points that non-religious folks may make, is there another source of information to quote and/or reference besides the bible? Agnostic and atheists lack the faith required to believe that what the bible says is divine. It's a circular argument. To you, the answer is easily answered in Genesis. To someone that is on the fence, the next logical question is "what makes Genesis right? What backs that up?" Thanks, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 There are no goals of evolution. 860031[/snapback] I totally agree with you that evolution and creationism are not mutually exclusive. But I disagree that there is no goal of evolution. I think clearly the goal of evolution is survival through adaptation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcjeff215 Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 I totally agree with you that evolution and creationism are not mutually exclusive. But I disagree that there is no goal of evolution. I think clearly the goal of evolution is survival through adaptation. 860073[/snapback] I agree for the most part. The trouble I see is that each time something is defined or clarified scientifically, do we take another chip away from creationism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 I agree for the most part. The trouble I see is that each time something is defined or clarified scientifically, do we take another chip away from creationism? 860078[/snapback] I've come to believe that evolution is a fact. I've seen enough evidence that, at least to me, it's pretty clear that species evolve. I also believe in God. So, I guess the natural conclusion for me is that God created the natural laws that govern evolution. My personal belief is that our human form was evolved over time, and that Adam and Eve were the first 'souls'. Or at least something along those lines..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornerville Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 I do believe in God and I am a Christian but in NO way do I belong to a religion. Christianity in its purest sense is not a religion at all. The one thing about Christmas now a days that annoys me is this X-Mas talk and "Holiday Parties" First off, why are we having a "holiday party" in the first place? Because of Christmas, that is why. How come other holidays do not take names out of them, for example, Happy X Kippur!....X-Over...things like that. If you do not like the name Christmas or a Christmas party, do not go. Make another party to celebrate your holday. Holiday Party...it is sad how the retail, media world, those who are anti God have taken Christ out of Christmas, and yet a lot of us are so blind to see this fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bungee Jumper Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 I agree for the most part. The trouble I see is that each time something is defined or clarified scientifically, do we take another chip away from creationism? 860078[/snapback] From biblical orthodoxy, yes. "Creationism", generally, is required, because by definition science can only describe what's observable, and there are practical limits to observation (at the very least, you can't observe beyond the point of the Big Bang...anything "before" or "outside" that is by definition a question of faith and not science.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffal0 Bill5 Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 I do believe in God and I am a Christian but in NO way do I belong to a religion. Christianity in its purest sense is not a religion at all. The one thing about Christmas now a days that annoys me is this X-Mas talk and "Holiday Parties" First off, why are we having a "holiday party" in the first place? Because of Christmas, that is why. How come other holidays do not take names out of them, for example, Happy X Kippur!....X-Over...things like that. If you do not like the name Christmas or a Christmas party, do not go. Make another party to celebrate your holday. Holiday Party...it is sad how the retail, media world, those who are anti God have taken Christ out of Christmas, and yet a lot of us are so blind to see this fact. 860084[/snapback] The hatred for "x-mas" is based on a lack of understanding of the origin. X is the sign of the cross, a cross the symbol of Christ. When a person was illiterate, and needed to sign a document, an X was used as an oath in place of the signature. The X in x-mas was not intended to avoid the name of Christ, but as a symbol of it. Happy Holidays to you. just kidding Merry Christmas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfanmiami(oh) Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 I totally agree with you that evolution and creationism are not mutually exclusive. But I disagree that there is no goal of evolution. I think clearly the goal of evolution is survival through adaptation. 860073[/snapback] Gotta disagree. The process of evolution itself does not strive or aim for survival. Differential survival through adaptation is the result of evolution, but it is not the "goal." Sounds picky but there is a difference. I think a few of my textbooks even went so far as to specifically say evolution has no goals. I think that sentiment is pretty much universal among evolutionary biologists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 Gotta disagree. The process of evolution itself does not strive or aim for survival. Differential survival through adaptation is the result of evolution, but it is not the "goal." Sounds picky but there is a difference. I think a few of my textbooks even went so far as to specifically say evolution has no goals. I think that sentiment is pretty much universal among evolutionary biologists. 860108[/snapback] Ah, I see what you're saying. I guess "goal" would imply that it's a conscious sort of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfanmiami(oh) Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 Ah, I see what you're saying. I guess "goal" would imply that it's a conscious sort of thing. 860114[/snapback] Thats exactly it. Seems like an insignificant distinction at first, but it makes sense when you think about it. I studied evolution in the majority of my classes throughout my 4 years at school (zoology major). I don't think I fully "got it" until my second semester of senior year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 Ah, snowmen. The memories come flooding back. My outside putting the finishing touches on one of the great sculptures in the history of North Olean while my dad yells out to me, "Hops! That is NOT where the carrot goes." 859797[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 I do believe in God and I am a Christian but in NO way do I belong to a religion. Christianity in its purest sense is not a religion at all. The one thing about Christmas now a days that annoys me is this X-Mas talk and "Holiday Parties" First off, why are we having a "holiday party" in the first place? Because of Christmas, that is why. How come other holidays do not take names out of them, for example, Happy X Kippur!....X-Over...things like that. If you do not like the name Christmas or a Christmas party, do not go. Make another party to celebrate your holday. Holiday Party...it is sad how the retail, media world, those who are anti God have taken Christ out of Christmas, and yet a lot of us are so blind to see this fact. 860084[/snapback] Actually, winter celebrations long predate Christianity. Human civilization used to be a lot more tied to the seasonal calendar than it is and there were all kinds of festivals, including winter ones. So the idea of a holiday party only being there because of Christmas is at least challengeable. I think it's likely both sides could give a little -- people adamant about it being a "Christmas" party -- is it because they really want to celebrate Christ's birth at the office? Or is it because they want to bring people together so that they can enjoy themselves? For people who aren't Christian, taking offense at it regardless is silly. But at the same time everybody wants a place, and if the point is to include everybody at the party, it can't hurt to include them and learn about what goes on at their house during the 'holidays.' To me that's a fascinating opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daquixers_is_back Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 I've a question. I mean absolutely no disrespect, so please don't take this the wrong way. When trying to counter points that non-religious folks may make, is there another source of information to quote and/or reference besides the bible? Agnostic and atheists lack the faith required to believe that what the bible says is divine. It's a circular argument. To you, the answer is easily answered in Genesis. To someone that is on the fence, the next logical question is "what makes Genesis right? What backs that up?" Thanks, Jeff 860072[/snapback] When asking a question about God, of course someone is going to repond with "Gods Word." If it was a question of the world, I wouldnt respond with the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 I don't want to start the Creationism/ Evolution thing again, but isn't there something a little comical about the passionate retort: I didn't come from monkeys (I came from dust)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 I've stayed away from this thread with good reason, but I finally felt like I could share my feelings. As far as there being an ethereal being that rules the heavens or what not, I have a hard time believing in this type of God. If you want to sell me that God is about having faith in one's self and having sole possesion of your destiny then I could be a buyer. Unfortunately, what many people view as God is this omniscient being that controls all, which is almost the exact opposite of how I see it. Placing your destiny in the hands of what many believe is God is alarming at best and dangerous at it's very worst. Too many people who make way too many important decisions place an extreme amount of faith in knowing that God will lead the way. This troubles me on a daily basis, both personally and wordly. Believing in a higher power, inherently is not malicious. Unfortunately, a pure, untainted view is rare. When organized religion gets involved, particularly certain sects of Christianity; greed, power, deification and other unholy traits creep into the forefront and ruin an otherwise good intention of people. I grew up with a very religious family and quite frankly some of their views are frightening and archaic. While many of my family members are some of the best people on Earth, their actions are based way too much in faith. As far as my personal view of my God. I wake up everyday believing in what I can do, and how I can make a difference. The only faith I have is in me and within me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 As far as my personal view of my God. I wake up everyday believing in what I can do, and how I can make a difference. The only faith I have is in me and within me. 860727[/snapback] Faith is in realizing that we do not, cannot possess all answers. Otherwise is destructive egoism. Is it possible to stare into the cosmos, look at the land, oceans, sky, the creatures, ourselves, and feel that oneself is all that there is? We give, we care. Were it only evolution, survival of the fittest, why so? Consider that something might be afoot beyond our view... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 Faith is in realizing that we do not, cannot possess all answers. Otherwise is destructive egoism. Is it possible to stare into the cosmos, look at the land, oceans, sky, the creatures, ourselves, and feel that oneself is all that there is? We give, we care. Were it only evolution, survival of the fittest, why so? Consider that something might be afoot beyond our view... 860736[/snapback] Clap! Clap! Hence from my post two or so pages ago: ... The "seven social sins": Knowledge without character Science without humanity Wealth without work Commerce without morality Politics without principles Pleasure without conscience Worship without self-sacrifice - Mahatma Gandhi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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