MelissaInPhilly Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 Who do you think won? Or was it a draw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swede316 Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 I'll say a draw...But Bush started bringin up Kerry's voting record..to me the key to the election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain America Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 Who do you think won? Or was it a draw? 62479[/snapback] The one thing I saw in this debate that they were well versed in the subjects.Now. the only thing I liked was the fact now that personalities can be separated and the issuses come to the fore front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 After all the spin, for the next few day's? Who do you think? I'd say Bush got the better of the Kerry tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichFan Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 On points I give a slight edge to Bush. On style I give a bigger edge to Bush. Bush actually got Kerry on the defensive for the first time probably in Kerry's life as a debater. Also, contrary to another thread, I think Bush did a good job changing his intonation. On national defense issues he spoke strongly. On domestic issues he was more conversational. Kerry did an excellent job hitting the Democratic talking points, but too many were the same statements from the last debate and they sounded a bit repetitive. Kerry had 2-3 questions where he convinced himself he has a clear position on something but most people watching, including the one asking the question, were left shrugging their shoulders. Overall, I think the debate will help Bush. He showed up to this one, and surpassed lowered expectations. There was a huge contrast between this and the first. By the way -- you need some wood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tux of Borg Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 It was a draw... although I'm still chuckling over the timber company comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 Bush had the crowd in his hands tonight. Kerry could'nt stay on track. BTW, got some wood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelissaInPhilly Posted October 9, 2004 Author Share Posted October 9, 2004 On points I give a slight edge to Bush. On style I give a bigger edge to Bush. Bush actually got Kerry on the defensive for the first time probably in Kerry's life as a debater. Also, contrary to another thread, I think Bush did a good job changing his intonation. On national defense issues he spoke strongly. On domestic issues he was more conversational. Kerry did an excellent job hitting the Democratic talking points, but too many were the same statements from the last debate and they sounded a bit repetitive. Kerry had 2-3 questions where he convinced himself he has a clear position on something but most people watching, including the one asking the question, were left shrugging their shoulders. Overall, I think the debate will help Bush. He showed up to this one, and surpassed lowered expectations. There was a huge contrast between this and the first. By the way -- you need some wood? 62495[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelissaInPhilly Posted October 9, 2004 Author Share Posted October 9, 2004 Sorry, I forgot to write my post . . . What's this about wood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 Sorry, I forgot to write my post . . . What's this about wood? 62526[/snapback] bush had earlier said that kerry's plan would hurt too many small business owners kerry was speaking on tax cuts and commented that the small business owners bush mentioned included bush who got like $80 out of a timber company bush came right back with 'i own a timber company? .... thats news to me! ... anybody wanna buy some wood?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 Slight edge to Bush. Both got in some good shots, at least the parts that I saw. I was more interested in the Yankee game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichFan Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 bush had earlier said that kerry's plan would hurt too many small business ownerskerry was speaking on tax cuts and commented that the small business owners bush mentioned included bush who got like $80 out of a timber company bush came right back with 'i own a timber company? .... thats news to me! ... anybody wanna buy some wood?' That was a classic moment. It reminded the American people why they like this guy so much on a personal level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chalkie Gerzowski Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 Kerry was under the spotlight, most glaringly with the abortion question. He nuanced and farted his way to a non-answer that took at least 2 minutes. I guess he must have a hard time coming to grips with attempting to be a Catholic and pro-choice at the same time. Doesn't really work. Either become an Episcopalian and remain pro-choice or become pro-life and remain Catholic. Kerry can't even provide a clear answer on this issue, as he is conflicted by it, being pulled in two different directions. If he can't deal with an issue like that, how can he possibly fight a war on terror? I also liked his response to tort reform, which was all of 5 seconds long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 Kerry was under the spotlight, most glaringly with the abortion question. He nuanced and farted his way to a non-answer that took at least 2 minutes. I guess he must have a hard time coming to grips with attempting to be a Catholic and pro-choice at the same time. Doesn't really work. Either become an Episcopalian and remain pro-choice or become pro-life and remain Catholic. Kerry can't even provide a clear answer on this issue, as he is conflicted by it, being pulled in two different directions. If he can't deal with an issue like that, how can he possibly fight a war on terror? I also liked his response to tort reform, which was all of 5 seconds long. 62539[/snapback] I thought his answer was absolutely great. It made perfect sense to me, and I am not of the same religious faith or stance on the issue as he is. I thought that was one of his better moments. It just goes to show you how divided we are, but that is not necessarily a bad thing all the time. It's okay to have a different POV on an serious issue like that. I understand the other side, I just don't agree with it whatsoever. I thought his answer was remarkable in its clarity and reason and fairness to everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmac17 Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 I heard somebody say that Bush did so much better because he was in a much more personal environment....he doesn't do nearly as well when he's in a sterile environment. Makes sense, since people who meet him say he's so likeable etc. but he stammers so much in the formal debate atmosphere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichFan Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 I thought his answer was absolutely great. It made perfect sense to me, and I am not of the same religious faith or stance on the issue as he is. I thought that was one of his better moments. It just goes to show you how divided we are, but that is not necessarily a bad thing all the time. It's okay to have a different POV on an serious issue like that. I understand the other side, I just don't agree with it whatsoever. I thought his answer was remarkable in its clarity and reason and fairness to everyone. Even Howard Fineman and Ron Reagan Jr. thought his response to the abortion question was incoherent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checkmate Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 I say a draw. I also called the first debate a draw (listened on NPR, did not watch). This campaign is a classic Democrat/Republican campaign. Each candidate is giving the classic stances of their party. Everyone knows the key is the independent voter. I think independents have been turned upside down in this race. Your typical Libertarian votes Republican because of economic issues but has to be appalled by Iraq and may go with Kerry. Your independent who usually gets turned off by the Republican stance on abortion, religion in schools, and other social issues may ignore Bush's policies in that regard for the sake of consistency in the war against global terrorism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 Even Howard Fineman and Ron Reagan Jr. thought his response to the abortion question was incoherent. 62548[/snapback] Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion. To me, he said he doesn't believe in abortion. His religious belief is against it. he is against it as a man of his particular faith. But he knows that America and Americans have varying beliefs, many of which are not like his. And that he cannot decide for other people, based on what is fair in the constitution, so that he would want to counsel and educate people on other decisions outside of abortion. I think that is not only extremely clear but extremely fair. And exactly what I want in a controversial issue like this. Here is what he said... First of all, I cannot tell you how deeply I respect the belief about life and when it begins. I'm a Catholic, raised a Catholic. I was an altar boy. Religion has been a huge part of my life. It helped lead me through a war, leads me today. But I can't take what is an article of faith for me and legislate it for someone who doesn't share that article of faith, whether they be agnostic, atheist, Jew, Protestant, whatever. I can't do that. But I can counsel people. I can talk reasonably about life and about responsibility. I can talk to people, as my wife Teresa does, about making other choices, and about abstinence, and about all these other things that we ought to do as a responsible society. But as a president, I have to represent all the people in the nation. And I have to make that judgment. Now, I believe that you can take that position and not be pro- abortion, but you have to afford people their constitutional rights. And that means being smart about allowing people to be fully educated, to know what their options are in life, and making certain that you don't deny a poor person the right to be able to have whatever the constitution affords them if they can't afford it otherwise. That's why I think it's important. That's why I think it's important for the United States, for instance, not to have this rigid ideological restriction on helping families around the world to be able to make a smart decision about family planning. You'll help prevent AIDS. You'll help prevent unwanted children, unwanted pregnancies. You'll actually do a better job, I think, of passing on the moral responsibility that is expressed in your question. And I truly respect it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 I AM BIASED! I WILL NOT VOTE FOR GEORGE BUSH! (that was for Alaska Darin! ): I think everyone heard what they wanted from their candidate of choice. Me, with a heavey bias toward Kerry (at this point) thought Kerry sounded and acted like a president. Bush, on the other hand, was just as crazy sounding as usual. Sorry, president Bush seemed to me very much on the defensive from the get-go. Personally, I got a kick out of Kerry using the term "Orwellian" to refer to the implementation of the patriot act. All I could think was, what is the president thinking? Probably something to the effect "what is he saying? What does Orwellian mean?" As someone who has already decided who to vote for, but still fearful that president Bush will win re-election, I wish Kerry would stop deferring to Bush so much. I think Kerry could have laid into him a number of times in both debates, but seems to self-conscious of coming off as the whiney, ogre that the president seems to be. All of these guys pander to the polls... Personally, I think the president makes an awful presintation of himself, and his attempts at corn-pone humour are sort of embarassing. I think he uses humour at inappropriate times, indicating that he doesn't always grasp things. I wathced the debate with 3 frinends, one a Bush supporter. At one point, even she said, "you know, I just can't stand lisetning to him for too long. He just makes me nervous." Of course, she will still vote Bush/Cheney, which just confirms to me that we all heard what we wanted to hear. I thought Kerry put the president to shame, but I suspect the polls will reflect fairly even results. A draw! Kerry can think on his feet, Bush just repeats the same crap, over and over and over (sorry MichFan!). I think he has gotten about as much mileage out of "first he voted for it, then he voted against it". We get it sir, he is a flip-flop. I will go with the flip-flop over the total flop any day. At least a flip-flop stands the chance of getting something right on occaision. I am sure you all tuned into Bill Mahr afterwards. Mahr had a pretty funny take on this misconception that president Bush is a manly, "tough guy". The rest of the show was pretty off, but just tune into the "new rules" segment at the end. It was pretty funny... "How can a guy graduate from Yale, but still talk like he gets splinters in his ass when he takes a s*#t!"- Bill Mahr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 I AM BIASED! I WILL NOT VOTE FOR GEORGE BUSH! (that was for Alaska Darin! ): I think everyone heard what they wanted from their candidate of choice. Me, with a heavey bias toward Kerry (at this point) thought Kerry sounded and acted like a president. Bush, on the other hand, was just as crazy sounding as usual. Sorry, president Bush seemed to me very much on the defensive from the get-go. Personally, I got a kick out of Kerry using the term "Orwellian" to refer to the implementation of the patriot act. All I could think was, what is the president thinking? Probably something to the effect "what is he saying? What does Orwellian mean?" As someone who has already decided who to vote for, but still fearful that president Bush will win re-election, I wish Kerry would stop deferring to Bush so much. I think Kerry could have laid into him a number of times in both debates, but seems to self-conscious of coming off as the whiney, ogre that the president seems to be. All of these guys pander to the polls... Personally, I think the president makes an awful presintation of himself, and his attempts at corn-pone humour are sort of embarassing. I think he uses humour at inappropriate times, indicating that he doesn't always grasp things. I wathced the debate with 3 frinends, one a Bush supporter. At one point, even she said, "you know, I just can't stand lisetning to him for too long. He just makes me nervous." Of course, she will still vote Bush/Cheney, which just confirms to me that we all heard what we wanted to hear. I thought Kerry put the president to shame, but I suspect the polls will reflect fairly even results. A draw! Kerry can think on his feet, Bush just repeats the same crap, over and over and over (sorry MichFan!). I think he has gotten about as much mileage out of "first he voted for it, then he voted against it". We get it sir, he is a flip-flop. I will go with the flip-flop over the total flop any day. At least a flip-flop stands the chance of getting something right on occaision. I am sure you all tuned into Bill Mahr afterwards. Mahr had a pretty funny take on this misconception that president Bush is a manly, "tough guy". The rest of the show was pretty off, but just tune into the "new rules" segment at the end. It was pretty funny... "How can a guy graduate from Yale, but still talk like he gets splinters in his ass when he takes a s*#t!"- Bill Mahr 62573[/snapback] If he lays into him, GWB gets the "sympathy" vote. Likeable idiots have a place in people's hearts. People want to asscociate with a "common" guy. I don't know, go figure? It is all about perception. I see Bush as mean, vindictive, pugnacious and petulant. It must be the way he carries himself... Slunches his shoulders forward? I guess everybody has a take. Kinda weird... 50-50... It is what you can take as an individual. Again perception is everything. Where have we gone as a society when we set the bar lower and lower? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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