RkFast Posted October 10, 2004 Posted October 10, 2004 Ive never read Mein Kampf. Nor do I listen to White Power music. I dont spend time reading Islamic Fundamentalist websites. But Im smart enough to realize what these people and their ideal represent. And Ive seen enough of Moore's ridiculous rhetoric to know that the I dont need to waste two hours seeing the blzrul he puts on celluloid to know hes full of, well, BLZRUL. It it looks like BLZRUL and smells like BLZRUL, then it must be BLZRUL.
frogger Posted October 10, 2004 Posted October 10, 2004 Actually...it's been a while since I've had to pull out my Michael Moore debunker ring, but if I recall correctly, this speech was skewed, edited, and misrepresented in some fashion. Not so much what he said, but to whom and when and under what circumstances. I could be wrong here, but I remember this was another challenged moment in the film. 62669[/snapback] Actually the quote went closer to "Some call you the haves and the Haves more, but I just call you my base" this was a pre 911 statement at a fund raising. If you take the time (and I am sure you won't) you'll see this is not edited, this was a direct quote (any mistakes were mine), I've read some of the notes that F911 used. for the most part they are not lies. For example the flights DID exist, it is true that following 911 the Bin Ladens and SA were taken home, without asking them any questions, this is a major part of the movie and it is true. And it followed a real person who during the movie lost a son. the only part that was ever in question when he was asking member of congress to sign up their kids, one had a son over in Iraq. And he even said that he just didn't show the interview.
gmac17 Posted October 10, 2004 Posted October 10, 2004 the only part that was ever in question when he was asking member of congress to sign up their kids, one had a son over in Iraq. And he even said that he just didn't show the interview. Are you joking? Come on man, have a look at this site and read some of the complete BS from the movie.... 59 Lies
RuntheDamnBall Posted October 11, 2004 Author Posted October 11, 2004 Ive never read Mein Kampf. Nor do I listen to White Power music. I dont spend time reading Islamic Fundamentalist websites. But Im smart enough to realize what these people and their ideal represent. And Ive seen enough of Moore's ridiculous rhetoric to know that the I dont need to waste two hours seeing the blzrul he puts on celluloid to know hes full of, well, BLZRUL. It it looks like BLZRUL and smells like BLZRUL, then it must be BLZRUL. 63392[/snapback] But why? You've obviously formed your opinion on Mein Kampf and White Power music based on others' reports or criticisms of them. Because those criticisms are (in this case rightly) generally accepted, this is OK. But if no scholar had ever deconstructed or sought to understand what Hitler was doing or what white supremacists are doing, likely many more would be under the sway of those ideas. In the same way, eliminating the distance you've fabricated between yourself and in this case the Moore film would enable you to make an honest judgement about it instead of jabbering on about how Michael Moore is an !@#$. Is it that you don't like the idea that the movie could affect you in some way other than that which you already feel? As I've said, I've seen the film and think it raises some valid concerns but goes way overboard in other respects. But I own that criticism as a viewer. I will admit he hasn't done everything in his power to earn Americans' respect, but those who haven't seen F 9/11 and criticize specific aspects of it haven't proven anything other than that they toe the party line in hating Moore blindly.
OGTEleven Posted October 11, 2004 Posted October 11, 2004 But why? You've obviously formed your opinion on Mein Kampf and White Power music based on others' reports or criticisms of them. Because those criticisms are (in this case rightly) generally accepted, this is OK. But if no scholar had ever deconstructed or sought to understand what Hitler was doing or what white supremacists are doing, likely many more would be under the sway of those ideas. In the same way, eliminating the distance you've fabricated between yourself and in this case the Moore film would enable you to make an honest judgement about it instead of jabbering on about how Michael Moore is an !@#$. Is it that you don't like the idea that the movie could affect you in some way other than that which you already feel? As I've said, I've seen the film and think it raises some valid concerns but goes way overboard in other respects. But I own that criticism as a viewer. I will admit he hasn't done everything in his power to earn Americans' respect, but those who haven't seen F 9/11 and criticize specific aspects of it haven't proven anything other than that they toe the party line in hating Moore blindly. 64374[/snapback] How do you feel about the book "Unfit for Command"?
RuntheDamnBall Posted October 11, 2004 Author Posted October 11, 2004 How do you feel about the book "Unfit for Command"? 64422[/snapback] Haven't read it, haven't made any outrageous comments about it. Have no feelings on it other than it has hurt the candidate I'm voting for, and a lot of what I've read supporting him contradicts it, and some of the past actions of some its authors have not thrilled me. What I have read about it would not change my mind as I am so opposed to Bush's policies. But I refuse to judge the book on its own until I get the chance to examine it for myself.
IBTG81 Posted October 11, 2004 Posted October 11, 2004 Are you joking? Come on man, have a look at this site and read some of the complete BS from the movie.... 59 Lies 63645[/snapback] Thanks gmac, wonderful read.
RkFast Posted October 11, 2004 Posted October 11, 2004 But why? You've obviously formed your opinion on Mein Kampf and White Power music based on others' reports or criticisms of them. Because those criticisms are (in this case rightly) generally accepted, this is OK. But if no scholar had ever deconstructed or sought to understand what Hitler was doing or what white supremacists are doing, likely many more would be under the sway of those ideas. In the same way, eliminating the distance you've fabricated between yourself and in this case the Moore film would enable you to make an honest judgement about it instead of jabbering on about how Michael Moore is an !@#$. Is it that you don't like the idea that the movie could affect you in some way other than that which you already feel? As I've said, I've seen the film and think it raises some valid concerns but goes way overboard in other respects. But I own that criticism as a viewer. I will admit he hasn't done everything in his power to earn Americans' respect, but those who haven't seen F 9/11 and criticize specific aspects of it haven't proven anything other than that they toe the party line in hating Moore blindly. Good challenge to my point. But I still dont buy it. I dont understand why I MUST see this movie in order to comment on Moore and if I dont see it and comment on Moore, Im just a close-minded lemming toeing the party line. I'm very familiar with Moore. Ive seen him on tv for years. Ive visited his site, seen some of his older movies, heard his rants. I thought he was an !@#$ before this move came out and Ill think so later. But heres the reason why the point that people MUST see this film to comment on it doesnt wash.....people like me who refuse to see it yet critiscise Moore and the film are not looking at a work proven to be one thing and calling it something else. To use some examples...we are not looking at the Mona Lisa and calling it water colors. We are not listening to Frank Sinatra and calling him a punk rocker. Everyone who has seen this film, even people who love it said that Moore goes WAY overboard in making his point. That he stretches the truth. Sensationalizes. Basically !@#$s with the audience with a patchwork of images and sounds to prove a point that may or may not be factual at all. And given this info and adding in my experiences of what Ive seen from Moore to date, I have enough info to form an opinion on this film and move on. And taking it to the purely partisan level. People like ME will flock to see f9/11 when people like YOU read "Unfit for Command".
Kelly the Dog Posted October 11, 2004 Posted October 11, 2004 Good challenge to my point. But I still dont buy it. I dont understand why I MUST see this movie in order to comment on Moore and if I dont see it and comment on Moore, Im just a close-minded lemming toeing the party line. I'm very familiar with Moore. Ive seen him on tv for years. Ive visited his site, seen some of his older movies, heard his rants. I thought he was an !@#$ before this move came out and Ill think so later. But heres the reason why the point that people MUST see this film to comment on it doesnt wash.....people like me who refuse to see it yet critiscise Moore and the film are not looking at a work proven to be one thing and calling it something else. To use some examples...we are not looking at the Mona Lisa and calling it water colors. We are not listening to Frank Sinatra and calling him a punk rocker. Everyone who has seen this film, even people who love it said that Moore goes WAY overboard in making his point. That he stretches the truth. Sensationalizes. Basically !@#$s with the audience with a patchwork of images and sounds to prove a point that may or may not be factual at all. And given this info and adding in my experiences of what Ive seen from Moore to date, I have enough info to form an opinion on this film and move on. And taking it to the purely partisan level. People like ME will flock to see f9/11 when people like YOU read "Unfit for Command". 64694[/snapback] Actually, no. You're wrong. I would say about a third of the film is what you described. And that is precisely the reason that I think this one is different and that people need to see it. The first part, the Saudi Part, is like that. But this film has a lot less Michael Moore in it and a lot more, much, much more in fact, of straight interviews with other people that give their POV. You have enough information on Moore to form an opinion on him, and mine is the same as yours. A great deal of the information on this film comes from people who havent seen it, and there is as much misinformation ON the film as there is IN the film. There is as much or more misinformation and misleading points and facts and implications in that "59 Lies" site as there is in F-9/11.
tennesseeboy Posted October 11, 2004 Posted October 11, 2004 I saw the movie. Moore makes three salient points. Bush did little between taking office and 9/11 and was grossly unprepared for it. That has been backed up by everyone investigating the situation ever since. Did the people before Bush not do enough? for sure. But the critical nine months leading up to it were on Bush's watch and he failed, resulting in thousands of innocent civilian deaths. Bush and his family have had an unhealthy personal and professional relationship with the Saudi governments in general and the Bin Ladens in particular, resulting in his dereliction of responsibility both before and after 9/11 and to the present. The Al Qaeda opereation has been and continues to be financed by Saudi money. The war in Iraq is a mess. We all know that now. An unnecessary and counterproductive mess. There is lots of room to criticize Moore for injecting humor and unnecessary digs at Bush and his chickenhawk buddies. However I believe it will win another Academy Award. And deserves to.
RuntheDamnBall Posted October 11, 2004 Author Posted October 11, 2004 Good challenge to my point. But I still dont buy it. I dont understand why I MUST see this movie in order to comment on Moore and if I dont see it and comment on Moore, Im just a close-minded lemming toeing the party line. Everyone who has seen this film, even people who love it said that Moore goes WAY overboard in making his point. That he stretches the truth. And taking it to the purely partisan level. People like ME will flock to see f9/11 when people like YOU read "Unfit for Command". 64694[/snapback] Perhaps. Your first point doesn't mesh with mine as I've said, you are welcome to criticize Moore but commenting on the film itself is another thing. It's a piece that, while it was directed by Moore, contains some real, unadulterated footage that is serious. I would agree with all of tennyboy's assessments here. To dismiss F9/11 without seeing it is possible, but in my opinion not as credible. It's like writing a book report on the Cliff's Notes. Moore's camera is a subjective eye, as are those of any viewers. He has gone out of his way to point that out. That is why the most effective parts of this movie have little to do with him, and unlike past Moore movies this amounts to a significant portion of the film. I will probably get to reading Unfit for Command, and if you want to as a friendly wager challenge each other to read/watch and finish the works, I am up for it (though it might have to wait as I am knee-deep in theory right now for grad school).
DC Tom Posted October 11, 2004 Posted October 11, 2004 8. You have to see it to have any opinion on it whatsoever. 62544[/snapback] In my opinion...it's not worth seeing.
KD in CA Posted October 11, 2004 Posted October 11, 2004 Haven't read it, haven't made any outrageous comments about it. Have no feelings on it other than it has hurt the candidate I'm voting for, and a lot of what I've read supporting him contradicts it, and some of the past actions of some its authors have not thrilled me. What I have read about it would not change my mind as I am so opposed to Bush's policies. But I refuse to judge the book on its own until I get the chance to examine it for myself. 64436[/snapback] So you only read things that tell you what you want to hear or that support the guy you've already decided to vote for (without listening to the other POV)? And then you come here to question others for forming opinions about Moore?
Adam Posted October 11, 2004 Posted October 11, 2004 I would never associate myself with either of the parties that only exist to further themselves. Michael Moore is an egotistical jerk, but there is some truth to his movie, and some opinions.
RuntheDamnBall Posted October 11, 2004 Author Posted October 11, 2004 So you only read things that tell you what you want to hear or that support the guy you've already decided to vote for (without listening to the other POV)? And then you come here to question others for forming opinions about Moore? 65195[/snapback] No, that's not what I said. I only said that the reviews I have read of this book indicate to me that they could not possibly change my mind about what Bush has done in office, and that I will get around to reading it. Again, you have misread me. I have said it's perfectly reasonable to have formed an opinion of Moore, and the movie itself is another animal. God, this must be what John Kerry feels like.
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