Tux of Borg Posted November 17, 2006 Posted November 17, 2006 Article Community responds to Taser use in Powell By Sara Taylor An incident late Tuesday night in which a UCLA student was stunned at least four times with a Taser has left the UCLA community questioning whether the university police officers' use of force was an appropriate response to the situation. Mostafa Tabatabainejad, a UCLA student, was repeatedly stunned with a Taser and then taken into custody when he did not exit the CLICC Lab in Powell Library in a timely manner. Community Service Officers had asked Tabatabainejad to leave after he failed to produce his BruinCard during a random check at around 11:30 p.m. Tuesday. UCPD Assistant Chief of Police Jeff Young said the checks are a standard procedure in the library after 11 p.m. "Because of the safety of the students we limit the use after 11 to just students, staff and faculty," Young said. Young said the CSOs on duty in the library at the time went to get UCPD officers when Tabatabainejad did not immediately leave, and UCPD officers resorted to use of the Taser when Tabatabainejad did not do as he was told. A six-minute video showed Tabatabainejad audibly screaming in pain as he was stunned several times with a Taser, each time for three to five seconds. He was told repeatedly to stand up and stop fighting, and was told that if he did not do so he would "get Tased again." "(He was) no possible danger to any of the police," Zaragoza said. "(He was) getting shocked and Tasered as he was handcuffed." But Young said at the time the police likely had no way of knowing whether the individual was armed or that he was a student. As Tabatabainejad was being dragged through the room by two officers, he repeated in a strained scream, "I'm not fighting you" and "I said I would leave." The officers used the "drive stun" setting in the Taser, which delivers a shock to a specific part of the body with the front of the Taser, Young said. A Taser delivers volts of low-amperage energy to the body, causing a disruption of the body's electrical energy pulses and locking the muscles, according to a report by the American Civil Liberties Union. "It's an electrical shock. ... It causes pain," Young said, adding that the drive stun would not likely demobilize a person or cause residual pain after the shock was administered. Young also said a Taser is less forceful than a baton, for example. But according to a study published in the Lancet Medical Journal in 2001, a charge of three to five seconds can result in immobilization for five to 15 minutes, which would mean that Tabatabainejad could have been physically unable to stand when the officers demanded that he do so. "It is a real mistake to treat a Taser as some benign thing that painlessly brings people under control," said Peter Eliasberg, managing attorney at the ACLU of Southern California. "The Taser can be incredibly violent and result in death," Eliasberg said. According to an ACLU report, 148 people in the United States and Canada have died as a result of the use of Tasers since 1999. During the altercation between Tabatabainejad and the officers, bystanders can be heard in the video repeatedly asking the officers to stop and requesting their names and identification numbers. The video showed one officer responding to a student by threatening that the student would "get Tased too." At this point, the officer was still holding a Taser. Such a threat of the use of force by a law enforcement officer in response to a request for a badge number is an "illegal assault," Eliasberg said. "It is absolutely illegal to threaten anyone who asks for a badge â€" that's assault," he said. Tabatabainejad was released from custody after being given a citation for obstruction/delay of a peace officer in the performance of duty. Neither Tabatabainejad nor his family were giving interviews Wednesday. Police officers said they determined the use of Tasers was necessary when Tabatabainejad did not do as they asked. According to a UCPD press release, Tabatabainejad went limp and refused to exit as the officers attempted to escort him out. The release also stated Tabatabainejad "encouraged library patrons to join his resistance." At this point, the officers "deemed it necessary to use the Taser in a "drive stun' capacity." "He wasn't cooperative; he wouldn't identify himself. He resisted the officers," Young said. Neither the video footage nor eyewitness accounts of the events confirmed that Tabatabainejad encouraged resistance, and he repeatedly told the officers he was not fighting and would leave. Tabatabainejad was walking with his backpack toward the door when he was approached by two UCPD officers, one of whom grabbed the student's arm. In response, Tabatabainejad yelled at the officers to "get off me." Following this demand, Tabatabainejad was stunned with a Taser. UCPD and the UCLA administration would not comment on the specifics of the incident as it is still under investigation. In a statement released Wednesday, Interim Chancellor Norman Abrams said investigators were reviewing the situation and the officers' actions. "I can assure you that these reviews will be thorough, vigorous and fair," Abrams said. The incident, which Zaragoza described as an example of "police brutality," left many students disturbed. "I realize when looking at these kind of arrest tapes that they don't always show the full picture. ... But that six minutes that we can watch just seems like it's a ridiculous amount of force for someone being escorted because they forgot their BruinCard," said Ali Ghandour, a fourth-year anthropology student. "It certainly makes you wonder if something as small as forgetting your BruinCard can eventually lead to getting Tased several times in front of the library," he added. Edouard Tchertchian, a third-year mathematics student, said he was concerned that the student was not offered any other means of showing that he was a UCLA student.
Johnny Coli Posted November 17, 2006 Posted November 17, 2006 Article Community responds to Taser use in Powell By Sara Taylor 839955[/snapback] I saw this yesterday and was wondering when someone was going to make a post about it. The responses should be pretty predictable. Personally, I found it to be a very brutal and disturbing piece of video to sit through, and will never watch it again. I was both angered and horrified that something like this could happen in the USA to an American college student. There is no way to justify what those security officers did. None. Although some will undoubtedly choose to.
Alaska Darin Posted November 17, 2006 Posted November 17, 2006 I saw this yesterday and was wondering when someone was going to make a post about it. The responses should be pretty predictable. Personally, I found it to be a very brutal and disturbing piece of video to sit through, and will never watch it again. I was both angered and horrified that something like this could happen in the USA to an American college student. There is no way to justify what those security officers did. None. Although some will undoubtedly choose to. 839960[/snapback] It's pretty awesome that a liberal would do say this when the very reason this stuff happens is their overwhelming support of big government in the first place. Liberalism begats government elitism.
Ramius Posted November 17, 2006 Posted November 17, 2006 I saw this yesterday and was wondering when someone was going to make a post about it. The responses should be pretty predictable. Personally, I found it to be a very brutal and disturbing piece of video to sit through, and will never watch it again. I was both angered and horrified that something like this could happen in the USA to an American college student. There is no way to justify what those security officers did. None. Although some will undoubtedly choose to. 839960[/snapback] I'm with you Johnny. Pathetic and horrifying what those scumbags did to the kid. They'll get whats coming tho. Faces on video, they're !@#$ and deservedly so.
SilverNRed Posted November 17, 2006 Posted November 17, 2006 Article Community responds to Taser use in Powell By Sara Taylor 839955[/snapback] Here comes my predictable response: The guy was a douche bag. If the cops tell you to leave, leave. If the cops are escorting you out, don't fight them. And if the cops taser you when you fight them, don't scream "THIS is your Patriot Act!" That pretty much lets you know what kind of mentality this guy had. The video doesn't actually "show" anything, it's basically all sound. And it starts when the actual physical altercation starts. Every cop wants the exact same thing to happen every day they're on the job: NOTHING. They don't want to pull their gun. They don't want to taser anyone. They don't even want to get physical with anyone because they know they'll be videotaped and some people will always say they went too far.
Cugalabanza Posted November 17, 2006 Posted November 17, 2006 It's pretty awesome that a liberal would do say this when the very reason this stuff happens is their overwhelming support of big government in the first place. Liberalism begats government elitism. 839974[/snapback] I don't want to take the bait here and get reactionary. So I'll go for a little bit of understatement: I think your comments are kind of tangential and aren't all that relevant to the topic we're currently discussing.
Johnny Coli Posted November 17, 2006 Posted November 17, 2006 The video doesn't actually "show" anything, it's basically all sound. And it starts when the actual physical altercation starts. 839986[/snapback] Actually, the video shows quite a bit. It shows the security guards tasing him when he's handcuffed, multiple times. It shows them tasing him repeatedly when he's already down. It shows the security guards verbally threatening to taser the students who were trying to intervene. It shows a situation rapidly escalating out of control enough to get a reaction from 40 to 60 horrified onlookers. No excuse. None.
agilen Posted November 17, 2006 Posted November 17, 2006 Every cop wants the exact same thing to happen every day they're on the job: NOTHING. They don't want to pull their gun. They don't want to taser anyone. They don't even want to get physical with anyone because they know they'll be videotaped and some people will always say they went too far. 839986[/snapback] Every real cop wants that. Its been my experience though, that university cops go out looking for something to happen when nothing really exists. No, not all of them, but quite a lot of them have a huge inferiority complex and they want to exercise their power whether they should or not.
Alaska Darin Posted November 17, 2006 Posted November 17, 2006 I don't want to take the bait here and get reactionary. So I'll go for a little bit of understatement: I think your comments are kind of tangential and aren't all that relevant to the topic we're currently discussing. 839993[/snapback] Expected response. You libs aren't very good at questioning your core values in the face of fact.
Cugalabanza Posted November 17, 2006 Posted November 17, 2006 Expected response. You libs aren't very good at questioning your core values in the face of fact. 840004[/snapback] I can only speak for myself. My core values are very well considered and always subject to sound scrutiny. Not that that has anything to do with what we were talking about.
SilverNRed Posted November 17, 2006 Posted November 17, 2006 Actually, the video shows quite a bit. It shows the security guards tasing him when he's handcuffed, multiple times. It shows them tasing him repeatedly when he's already down. It shows the security guards verbally threatening to taser the students who were trying to intervene. It shows a situation rapidly escalating out of control enough to get a reaction from 40 to 60 horrified onlookers. No excuse. None. 839995[/snapback] You don't "see" any of it. You mainly see the backs of other students and hear the guy being arrested screaming (and obviously not cooperating). They threaten to taser one student at the very end because he's getting into the cop's face. And that's another thing: it's never a good idea to "intervene" with the cops. And you can still be fighting with the cops if you're handcuffed and "down." And who the hell is insane enough that they have to be handcuffed when they aren't let into a computer lab. You forget your ID card, security won't let you in, you leave. The end. The whole thing happened because this one guy was a moron. The cops didn't want this. Why would they?
Tux of Borg Posted November 17, 2006 Author Posted November 17, 2006 Actually, the video shows quite a bit. It shows the security guards tasing him when he's handcuffed, multiple times. It shows them tasing him repeatedly when he's already down. Ok, i'll play devil's advocate.... He continued to fight police after he was handcuffed and on the ground. If he cooperated with the popo from the start, things would have never escalated into this. It shows the security guards verbally threatening to taser the students who were trying to intervene. 839995[/snapback] What's wrong with that? You can't intervene when a police officer is making an arrest. They are lucky they weren't tased and arrested with him.
Johnny Coli Posted November 17, 2006 Posted November 17, 2006 You don't "see" any of it. You mainly see the backs of other students and hear the guy being arrested screaming (and obviously not cooperating). They threaten to taser one student at the very end because he's getting into the cop's face. And that's another thing: it's never a good idea to "intervene" with the cops. And you can still be fighting with the cops if you're handcuffed and "down." And who the hell is insane enough that they have to be handcuffed when they aren't let into a computer lab. You forget your ID card, security won't let you in, you leave. The end. The whole thing happened because this one guy was a moron. The cops didn't want this. Why would they? 840011[/snapback] There's two videos. The Youtube one is longer, but not as clear as the one the local affiliate has. The other one clearly shows the handcuffed kid being walked out the door. You see him get tased and his whole body goes into convulsions. Secondly, he was already in the library using a computer. The students who were interviewed stated that he was leaving, the cop grabbed him, he said "Let go of me" and the rest is on the video. The whole thing happens in the library entrance, so don't give me any crap about him not leaving. He's even yelling "I was leaving" from the ground as they're hitting him again and again with the taser. Thirdly, no one was "getting in the cops face." I think those students showed remarkable restraint when faced with one of their peers is being brutallized. When did asking a cop for his name become a reason for the cop to threaten someone?
smokinandjokin Posted November 17, 2006 Posted November 17, 2006 Campus police should wear sashes that say "Hall Monitor." Shouldn't they have been writing parking tickets instead of tasering geeks?
RayFinkle Posted November 17, 2006 Posted November 17, 2006 Secondly, he was already in the library using a computer. The students who were interviewed stated that he was leaving, the cop grabbed him, he said "Let go of me" and the rest is on the video. The whole thing happens in the library entrance, so don't give me any crap about him not leaving. He's even yelling "I was leaving" from the ground as they're hitting him again and again with the taser. 840034[/snapback] I guess you missed this part of the story: "Young said the CSOs on duty in the library at the time went to get UCPD officers when Tabatabainejad did not immediately leave, and UCPD officers resorted to use of the Taser when Tabatabainejad did not do as he was told. " Cops showed after he wouldn't leave. If this kid wasn't a UCLA student and was some nut job people would be blaming the system for not having a system in place to protect the kids who are in there late at night. I'm willing to bet dude, knew the rules, dude knew he was breaking the rules but was reluctant to leave because the rules don't apply to him.
Johnny Coli Posted November 17, 2006 Posted November 17, 2006 The local affiliate has better footage here, along with an interview of one of the students.
SilverNRed Posted November 17, 2006 Posted November 17, 2006 The local affiliate has better footage here, along with an interview of one of the students. 840050[/snapback] I found this right before you posted it (you mentioned it above) and it shows the same thing. The student they interviewed even says he was struggling. When asked whether the student resisted when officer attempted to escort him from the building, the witness said, "In the beginning, no. But when they were holding onto him and they were on the ground, he was trying to just break free. He was saying, 'I'm leaving, I'm leaving.' It was so disturbing to watch that I cannot be concise on that. I can just say that he was willing to leave. He had his backpack on his shoulder and he was walking out when the cops approached him. It was unnecessary." Not to mention what happened before the video was rolling: Greenstein said a Community Service Officer employed by the library was performing a nightly check to ensure that all patrons using the library after 11 p.m. were authorized to be there. "This is a longstanding library policy to ensure the safety of students during the late-night hours," Greenstein said. "The CSO made an announcement that he would be checking for university identification. When a person, who was later identified as ... Tabatabainejad, refused to provide any identification, the CSO told him that if he refused to do so, he would have to leave the library. "Since, after repeated requests, he would neither leave nor show identification, the CSO notified UCPD officers, who responded and asked Tabatabainejad to leave the premises multiple times. He continued to refuse. As the officers attempted to escort him out, he went limp and continued to refuse to cooperate with officers or leave the building. Greenstein said Tabatabainejad encouraged others in the library to join his "resistance." She said a crowd gathered around the officers. "The officers deemed it necessary to use the Taser in a 'drive stun' capacity," she said in the statement. "A Taser is used to incapacitate subjects who are resistant by discharging an electronic current into the subject in one of two methods: via two wired probes that are deployed from the Taser, or in a 'drive stun' capacity by touching the subject with the Taser. In this incident the student was not shot with a Taser; rather, officers used the 'drive stun' capability. I'll still give the benefit of the doubt to the cops. Lastly, the kid in the white shirt at the end of the YouTube video is clearly getting way too close to the officers and in the NBC video they even mention that the full quote is "If you don't back up, you're going to get tasered too." They didn't say that because he was just asking for badge numbers.
erynthered Posted November 17, 2006 Posted November 17, 2006 Ignoring the police's orders are always a good idea.
Johnny Coli Posted November 17, 2006 Posted November 17, 2006 I guess you missed this part of the story: "Young said the CSOs on duty in the library at the time went to get UCPD officers when Tabatabainejad did not immediately leave, and UCPD officers resorted to use of the Taser when Tabatabainejad did not do as he was told. " Cops showed after he wouldn't leave. If this kid wasn't a UCLA student and was some nut job people would be blaming the system for not having a system in place to protect the kids who are in there late at night. I'm willing to bet dude, knew the rules, dude knew he was breaking the rules but was reluctant to leave because the rules don't apply to him. 840045[/snapback] Did not immediately leave, but was leaving when the cops showed up, according to multiple witnesses. Zero justification for using the taser multiple times, let alone once. Also, we don't taser people in this country (maybe we do now) for not obeying orders if they pose no danger to themselves or anyone else.
SilverNRed Posted November 17, 2006 Posted November 17, 2006 Did not immediately leave, but was leaving when the cops showed up, according to multiple witnesses. Zero justification for using the taser multiple times, let alone once. Also, we don't taser people in this country (maybe we do now) for not obeying orders if they pose no danger to themselves or anyone else. 840053[/snapback] According to the NBC link that you posted, he wasn't. And this isn't about the "Patriot Act" or "this country" or whatever. It's about one guy being a complete douche and not leaving when the police tell him to leave. Do you really think the police were bored and just felt like breaking out the tasers?
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