Self-censorship in the press

[Orton's Arm]

Let's completely ignore that they were the same thing.

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Let's see: an intern having an affair with the president--and then both of them lying about it, is the same thing as an Arkansas governor and his wife engaging in illegal transactions involving an S&L.

[Chilly]

Let's completely ignore that they were the same thing.

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lol, I assumed he was talking more about the original land sales and less about the broad investigation.

 

You are right though - they are the same damn thing.

 

Edit - or, given his post right above me, he doesn't realize that Whitewater investigations was what dug up the whole Liewinski crap.

[Bungee Jumper]

Let's see: an intern having an affair with the president--and then both of them lying about it, is the same thing as an Arkansas governor and his wife engaging in illegal transactions involving an S&L.

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The Lewinsky scandal was part of Starr's Whitewater investigation, dumbass. In fact, it's the only wrongdoing Starr found - the Whitewater report ultimately found nothing wrong with the land deals.

 

It always struck me as odd that no one questioned why Starr, as part of the Whitewater investigation, went digging into the President's sex life...but apparently there's enough people as clueless as you to believe they were two different things.

[Bungee Jumper]

Edit - or, given his post right above me, he doesn't realize that Whitewater investigations was what dug up the whole Liewinski crap.

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Of course he doesn't. He's !@#$ing ignorant.

[Orton's Arm]

The Lewinsky scandal was part of Starr's Whitewater investigation, dumbass.  In fact, it's the only wrongdoing Starr found - the Whitewater report ultimately found nothing wrong with the land deals.

Before the investigations, Starr was considered fairly moderate. He had political ambitions of his own, and didn't want to offend anyone by digging too deeply into Whitewater.

 

There are people who've served jail time instead of coming clean about Whitewater. George Stephanopoulos discussed the Whitewater cover-up in his book All Too Human. He'd advised that the Whitewater coverup be dropped, both because (in his eyes) the Clintons hadn't done anything wrong, and because the coverup was getting in the way of doing the things Clinton had been elected to do. Hillary responded to this suggestion by screaming at Stephanopoulos in front of a number of people. She accused him of disloyalty, and insinuated he'd never really been loyal. Utterly overcome with the strength of her own emotion, Hillary finally stormed out of the room.

 

Draw your own conclusions about whether the Clintons are guilty of wrongdoing.

[Chilly]

Before the investigations, Starr was considered fairly moderate. He had political ambitions of his own, and didn't want to offend anyone by digging too deeply into Whitewater.

 

There are people who've served jail time instead of coming clean about Whitewater. George Stephanopoulos discussed the Whitewater cover-up in his book All Too Human. He'd advised that the Whitewater coverup be dropped, both because (in his eyes) the Clintons hadn't done anything wrong, and because the coverup was getting in the way of doing the things Clinton had been elected to do. Hillary responded to this suggestion by screaming at Stephanopoulos in front of a number of people. She accused him of disloyalty, and insinuated he'd never really been loyal. Utterly overcome with the strength of her own emotion, Hillary finally stormed out of the room.

 

Draw your own conclusions about whether the Clintons are guilty of wrongdoing.

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After all, basing your conclusions in politics on emotional responses and anecdotal stories is a great way to do things.

[Orton's Arm]

After all, basing your conclusions in politics on emotional responses and anecdotal stories is a great way to do things.

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I'm basing it on the autobiography of a Clinton staffer. These were Stephanopoulos's own words. Stephanopoulos wrote a) that there was a Whitewater coverup, and b) that Hillary responded very emotionally when it was suggested the coverup be ended. If something like that doesn't convince you, nothing will.

[Bungee Jumper]

I'm basing it on the autobiography of a Clinton staffer. These were Stephanopoulos's own words. Stephanopoulos wrote a) that there was a Whitewater coverup, and b) that Hillary responded very emotionally when it was suggested the coverup be ended. If something like that doesn't convince you, nothing will.

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Did you actually read Snuffelupagus's autobiography, or just look at his dreamy picture on the cover? Because, having read it myself, I'm only seeing you tell half the story as written...

 

...as usual.

[Orton's Arm]

  Did you actually read Snuffelupagus's autobiography, or just look at his dreamy picture on the cover?  Because, having read it myself, I'm only seeing you tell half the story as written...

 

...as usual.

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I've read the book, and my description is accurate.

[Chilly]

I'm basing it on the autobiography of a Clinton staffer. These were Stephanopoulos's own words. Stephanopoulos wrote a) that there was a Whitewater coverup, and b) that Hillary responded very emotionally when it was suggested the coverup be ended. If something like that doesn't convince you, nothing will.

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There are reasons to be skeptical, given that Stephanopoulos is attempting to sell a book. Nah, theres no reason for him to embellish a story at all!

 

I have no opinion one way or the other on the issue currently, but basing an opinion on one source with a reason to play a story up is not exactly sound.

[Orton's Arm]

There are reasons to be skeptical, given that Stephanopoulos is attempting to sell a book.  Nah, theres no reason for him to embellish a story at all!

 

I have no opinion one way or the other on the issue currently, but basing an opinion on one source with a reason to play a story up is not exactly sound.

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There are people serving time in jail rather than testify about their knowledge of Whitewater. Stephanopoulos's statement that there was a Whitewater coverup is true, and is not an embellishment.

 

The book as a whole is written in an honest, sometimes self-effacing tone. I believe Hillary really did publicly humiliate him for suggesting the Whitewater coverup be dropped.

[Bungee Jumper]

I've read the book, and my description is accurate.

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As usual...no, it isn't. Clearly, if you've read the book (doubtful; if you have, it would be the first time you've bothered to attempt being informed on anything), you didn't bother to understand it. Again, as usual.

 

Stephanopolous specifically states that they were not "covering up" any wrong-doing, they were protecting their privacy, and that Hillary got shrewish only at the idea that they should willingly make their private dealings a public spectacle.

 

But Stephanopolous never stated there was anything wrong with Whitewater, he never implied it, he never implied there was a cover-up. He only said that the Clintons wanted to protect their privacy against the advice that it was politically counter-productive...

[Orton's Arm]

As usual...no, it isn't.  Clearly, if you've read the book (doubtful; if you have, it would be the first time you've bothered to attempt being informed on anything), you didn't bother to understand it.  Again, as usual.

 

Stephanopolous specifically states that they were not "covering up" any wrong-doing, they were protecting their privacy, and that Hillary got shrewish only at the idea that they should willingly make their private dealings a public spectacle. 

 

But Stephanopolous never stated there was anything wrong with Whitewater, he never implied it, he never implied there was a cover-up.  He only said that the Clintons wanted to protect their privacy against the advice that it was politically counter-productive...

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Wrong. Stephanopoulos did say there was a cover-up, which he advised be dropped. He at least claimed to believe the Clintons had done nothing wrong--nothing worth covering up. Hillary's response discredits that claim.

 

The shrewish, privacy protecting Hillary--which you, not Stephanopoulos, have alleged--does not explain why people went to jail rather than testify what they knew about Whitewater.

[Chilly]

Wrong. Stephanopoulos did say there was a cover-up, which he advised be dropped. He at least claimed to believe the Clintons had done nothing wrong--nothing worth covering up. Hillary's response discredits that claim.

 

The shrewish, privacy protecting Hillary--which you, not Stephanopoulos, have alleged--does not explain why people went to jail rather than testify what they knew about Whitewater.

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It does actually. A quote from McDougal:

 

"I won't answer their questions," McDougal said Monday. "I don't trust them." Starr and his lawyers "have always wanted something on the Clintons," said McDougal. She fears she'll be charged with perjury if she doesn't tell the grand jury what they want to hear, she said.

 

She's fearful that putting what she knows into the public spotlight will get it so twisted that it'll get the Clinton's in trouble.

[VABills]

Okay to settle the arguement. Former monkey dude, post an excerpt where the midget actually says that there was no coverup and the Clintons were innocent.

 

and Wanna-be math dude, post an excerpt where the midget actually said the Clintons are the scum that we all know them to be.

[Bungee Jumper]

Wrong. Stephanopoulos did say there was a cover-up, which he advised be dropped. He at least claimed to believe the Clintons had done nothing wrong--nothing worth covering up. Hillary's response discredits that claim.

 

The shrewish, privacy protecting Hillary--which you, not Stephanopoulos, have alleged--does not explain why people went to jail rather than testify what they knew about Whitewater.

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Ah, so you didn't read the book...

[Orton's Arm]

Okay to settle the arguement.    Former monkey dude, post an excerpt where the midget actually says that there was no coverup and the Clintons were innocent. 

 

and Wanna-be math dude, post an excerpt where the midget actually said the Clintons are the scum that we all know them to be.

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It's amazing to me how many people didn't take the time to fully understand the regression toward the mean debate, yet still choose to cast aspersions on my math abilities. Read the Hyperstat article. Read what I wrote and what Bungee Jumper wrote about regression toward the mean. Then decide which of us is the "wanna be math dude."

 

But your request for information is wholly reasonable, so here you go.

"Mr. President, you're right," I said. "You have gotten a raw deal from the press, and the stories will be unpleasant. But they can't really hurt you because they're all about the past, and you didn't really do anything wrong. If we don't give them what they want, they'll say we're covering up. The pressure will build, and we'll end up answering the questions later anyway. Better to flush it out over the holidays when no one's paying attention." For a moment, I thought our rare double-team effort had worked. Clinton didn't make a counterargument; the pol in him knew we were right. . . . [but] on this issue, Clinton wasn't commander in chief, just a husband beholden to his wife. Hillary was always the first to defend him on bimbo eruptions; now he had to do the same for her. Gergen and I didn't know what was in the Whitewater documents, but whatever it was, Hillary didn't want it out--and she had a veto. The president ended the meeting by saying he wanted to think about it some more.

 

"Well," said Hillary crisply, taking a seat on the couch by the door, "I think this is a meeting I ought to be at."

Because I had been talking, I felt as if everyone was looking at me. . . . I prided myself on not being afraid to make a tough argument to the principals, and I'd look like a wimp now if I didn't continue. . . . Sitting up straight and staring right at Hillary, I made my case: "Assuming we did nothing wrong, the best thing is to have a special counsel say so. There's an air of inevitability to this. If we don't ask for one from the attorney general, we're going to get an independed prosecutor. . . . I know we didn't do anything wrong, but it looks like we did because we're not being forthcoming. More important than anything else, this is going to kill health care if we don't get it under control. . . . If you want us to fight, Hillary, we will. But it will take all our time, all our staff resources, and, most important, all our political capital, which we need every bit of to pass health care." . . . "The Democrats are still holding firm. . . . But I can't promise they'll be with us in a month. It's beyond the Congress now: it's in the editorial pages; it's everywhere. We don't get the benefit of the doubt because we're not being forthcoming, and we are being defensive."

 

Whatever I said was exactly wrong. Tears stung the corners of her eyes, and I imagined Hillary's fear-induced fury--at the Republicans for trying to destroy health care by destroying her, at the press for its small-minded obsessive scrupulousness when issues affecting real people were at stake, at her husband for getting her into this stupid land deal with his shady friends in the first place and then expecting her to clean it up . . . all of that fury, for a moment, was directed at me.

 

"You never believed in us. In New Hampshire, it was just me and Susan [Thomases] and Harold [ickes] who believed in us. If we wouldn't have fought, we would never have won. You gave up on us . . ."

 

She paused, her voice fell, and Hillary started to cry. "We were out there alone, and I'm feeling very lonely right now. Nobody is fighting for me."

 

We all seemed stuck to our chairs, not knowing whether to be unnerved, afraid, or consoling. I was too stunned to respond. Harold, who had been explicitly absolved from the accusation of disloyalty, tried to rescue me with one final plea for reconsideration.

 

"I don't want to hear any more," Hillary snapped, back in control. "I want us to fight. I want a campaign now." Looking back at me, she took one last shot: "If you don't believe in us, you should just leave. Then she walked out the door.

 

A dead moment passed. I fixed a crinkly smile on my face. Once I was sure Hillary was long gone, I rose to leave. . . . I walked the few steps to my office, closed the door behind me, and broke down.

[Chilly]

What I read there backs up what Tom was saying.

 

George S. maintains that they did nothing wrong. However, he says it gives the appearance that they did something wrong because they aren't being forthcoming about it. Therefore, they should be forthcoming about everything.

 

Hillary, not wanting to divulge this information (which this passage doesn't explain at all why that is) gets mad at him for not taking her side of it, and accuses him of not believing in her.

 

This passage in no way insinuates that there was a cover up.

[Bungee Jumper]

What I read there backs up what Tom was saying.

 

George S. maintains that they did nothing wrong.  However, he says it gives the appearance that they did something wrong because they aren't being forthcoming about it.  Therefore, they should be forthcoming about everything.

 

Hillary, not wanting to divulge this information (which this passage doesn't explain at all why that is) gets mad at him for not taking her side of it, and accuses him of not believing in her.

 

This passage in no way insinuates that there was a cover up.

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Clearly you have no self-esteem.

[EC-Bills]

Clearly you have no self-esteem.

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It's probably still regressing towards the mean.