Man, I Wish Our Team Would Draft LINEMAN!

[Gary M]

Yer point is that there are no absolutes and no perfect formula for building a team?

 

No schitt.

835717[/snapback]

 

Here is an absolute for you....

 

The OLINE can't stop anything, I know it, JP knows it and the coaches know it.

 

And they are going to run the ball until they prove that they can give JP time to find an open receiver.

[Buftex]

Here is an absolute for you....

 

The OLINE can't stop anything, I know it, JP knows it and the coaches know it.

 

 

835744[/snapback]

 

 

According to most here, the only one thing our O-line can stop is JP Losman and Willis McGahee....

[Buftex]

I'm not sure that's the answer, either.  I'm a hell of alot more disappointed we didn't make a serious run at Hutch than anything that's happened in the last 5 years.

835521[/snapback]

 

 

I would love to see the Bills address their Oline shortcomings via free-agency, rather than the draft. I am not talking about overpaying for guys they hope will live up to previously untapped potential, but for legit starters.

 

There may only be one or two of them available every year, but I think this is an area that the Bills need to take sure steps toward addressing, rather than the "wing and a prayer" approach. Even if they were to sign one legit starter, at any position on the line, it would be a major improvement.

 

I don't know if the problem lies with McNally, or the fact that he can't "coach up" five projects/reclamation projects at once. Depending on who you listen to, Peters is the only O-linemen worth a crap.

[EC-Bills]

You know, like the Vikings.  A team we beat AND who lost AT HOME yesterday to a team we beat just one week ago.

 

I mean think about it:

 

McKinnie - First Round

Hutchinson - First Round (though signed as a Free Agent)

Birk - UDFA but a Pro Bowler

Hicks - UDFA signed from the Eagles after 4 seasons

Johnson - High second round

 

K Williams - High First Round

K. Udeze - First Round

P. Williams - High Profile Free Agent

D. Scott - 3rd Round

 

That's Four first rounders, one second rounder, and a third rounder for those of you scoring at home.  How is it that team didn't roll us by 40?

835484[/snapback]

 

I agree the development of the OL has been underwhelming. The question is what to do about it? For the remainder of the season, it seems obvious to me to keep playing what we have to see if any continuity can be be built or if for no other reason to get some of the young guys some meaningful reps.

 

After the season is where the real challenges come into play. Do you replace McNally, hoping someone new can come in and energize this bunch? Is there anyone in FA who can come in and contribute right away? And if so will that person be worth the cost it would take at the expense of other positions?

[Rubes]

No, but your avatar probably could (was that the guy on the YouTube video?)!

835629[/snapback]

 

 

Yeah, it is. I'd like to see him step in at RT, now that you mention it.

 

It really boils down to these points:

 

1. Our offensive line is really, really offensive.

 

2. We have done a pretty lousy job bringing in and/or developing new offensive linemen.

 

Drafting a whole crapload of offensive linemen won't necessarily solve the problem. But I think the point is that we need some linemen who are capable of getting the job done. This group, for the most part, ain't getting it done. Whether it's poor scouting, poor judgement, or poor coaching, I don't know.

 

The new regime has found us a center and moved Peters to the position he should be in at LT. That's just 2 positions out of 5 that they've secured for us. I'm assuming the Reyes experiment at LG has failed (unless he's just injured, I don't know). Sticking with Villarial was probably more out of necessity than anything else. The jury is still out on Pennington, but he hasn't shown a tremendous amount yet.

 

I'm not advocating bringing in a boatload of offensive linemen as a fix, but we really need to look everything over from scouting to coaching to figure out why we have failed so miserably for so many years at putting together what most would believe is the foundation for an offense.

[erynthered]

Our OL should be addressed with F/A AND the draft.

 

 

If you have the ability to play left tackle in the NFL, you have a chance to earn a very large paycheck. The past seven left tackles to sign in free agency received almost $70 million in signing bonuses.

 

 

We're so lucky that Ralph is such a free spender, that'll help us acquiring OL. We're a lock for the Super Bowl.

[jarthur31]

You know, like the Vikings.  A team we beat AND who lost AT HOME yesterday to a team we beat just one week ago.

 

I mean think about it:

 

McKinnie - First Round

Hutchinson - First Round (though signed as a Free Agent)

Birk - UDFA but a Pro Bowler

Hicks - UDFA signed from the Eagles after 4 seasons

Johnson - High second round

 

K Williams - High First Round

K. Udeze - First Round

P. Williams - High Profile Free Agent

D. Scott - 3rd Round

 

That's Four first rounders, one second rounder, and a third rounder for those of you scoring at home.  How is it that team didn't roll us by 40?

835484[/snapback]

 

Name the WR and RB that can put up points for you easily. Their QB should be retired, btw.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

Our OL should be addressed with F/A AND the draft.

We're so lucky that Ralph is such a free spender, that'll help us acquiring OL. We're a lock for the Super Bowl.

Uh, until this year he HAS been a free spender.

[C.Biscuit97]

Name the WR and RB that can put up points for you easily.  Their QB should be retired, btw.

836238[/snapback]

 

You realize you have to play all these players right? It's not fantasy football. They have the highest paid line in football, so that leaves less money for other positions. They also have drafted a QB in the second round, a 1st round wr, and signed a FA rb to a pretty decent contract.

[Orton's Arm]

I don't think the drafting of them has been underwhelming.  Their development certainly has.

835596[/snapback]

I disagree, AD. TD used no fewer than eight picks in the first two rounds on skill position players:

2001: Travis Henry (2nd round)

2002: Josh Reed (2nd round)

2003: Drew Bledsoe (1st round, traded)

2003: Willis McGahee (1st round)

2004: Lee Evans (1st round)

2004: JP Losman (2nd round)

2005: JP Losman (1st round)

2005: Roscoe Parrish (2nd round)

 

TD used just one pick in the first two rounds on the offensive line:

2002: Mike Williams (1st round)

 

This utter neglect of the offensive line happened despite the fact that the line was really bad when TD got here. Other than an aging Ruben Brown, there wasn't anybody on our line.

 

TD found relatively old, bargain basement free agent offensive linemen. What did he expect from that? Marv found other bargain basement free agent offensive linemen with which to replace them. I wasn't impressed then, and I'm not now.

 

Ever since Kent Hull retired, the offensive line has been a gaping wound in the side of the Bills. The Bills have tried to mend this wound with tiny little Band-Aids such as cheap free agents or low-round draft picks. These have done absolutely nothing to stop the bleeding. It's been ten years. It's time to stop messing around, and start drafting offensive linemen early in the draft. If that means there's one less Roscoe Parrish or Josh Reed on the roster, that's a price the Bills will have to pay.

 

Will a good offensive line fix all the Bills' problems? No. But without a good offensive line, the other stuff they're trying to fix won't get them very far.

[C.Biscuit97]

Great topic. The Vikings have done what many people want us to do. It really hasn't worked so far. The Raiders have also tried this method and may have constructed the worst line in history (with ours just behind ).

 

On the other hand, teams like Colts, Pats, & Chargers have found FAs and lower draft picks and made it work. So my question is simple: Why the hell haven't the Bills been able to do this 15 years???

 

Is it the drafting? Well obviously, the right guys aren't getting picked. However, Rueben Brown was a pro bowler every year. Travis Henry had back to back 1,300 yards seasons when a lot of fans think he was an average back (I disagree and always thought Henry was a good back. ) Obviously, Mike Williams set us back but it seemed like the right pick at the type.

 

Is it coaching? I thought we hired one of the best line coaches in football. He coached the Giants very average line to a Super Bowl with an immobile qb.

 

Is it the Free Agents we sign? It is impossible to keep all high draft pick and quality linemen on your team. So you need help. But for some reason, we always pick the wrong ones. Personally, I thought the Fowler and Reyes, who started on quality teams last year would help. So far, it looks liek I was wrong.

 

Is it the coordinator? It appears Fairchild is joining the racks of Pendry, Gilbride, and Henning. Our offense has sucked for like 9 of the last 10 years.

 

Is the QB? Losman, Collins, Johnson, Bledsoe. Did they all suck because they truly sucked? Or did they suck because they were behind an awful line. Bad QB play can make a line look a lot worse than it is.

 

I honestly I have no idea any of the answers to these questions. If someone could provide some answers that would be great. I am so sick of these questions going unanswered year after year. Just once it would be great to see us be able to keep 5 guys together and feel confident going into the next year. God, this depresses me.

[Ray]

JP, RJ, et al stunk because they do stink. How many other tema sdid RJ go to and flourish? Let's see Tampa, Redskins and the Giants and he stunk with all of them. How about Bledsoe. I thought it was just the line. The same way it was just the line in New England and Dallas. Gee those same lines seemed to miraculously improve in one week the the replacement of one player--the QB!

[Lori]

Ah, but Lori.....The year before they took Manning, the Colts drafted Tarik Glenn and Adam Meadows in rounds 1 and 2. Certainly you agree that these players had a big role in the W/L record that you cite. 

Glenn is still there protercting his blindside, and Meadows was there for years providing protection for Manning and holes for James.

 

I don't dispute the theory that there is no etched in stone way to build a winner in terms of positional drafting. I do however make the case that using top resources on both lines wrt the draft is generally a good way to go.

835700[/snapback]

Polian was still in Carolina -- and using their #1 on Rae Carruth -- when Glenn and Meadows were drafted. (Yes, that Rae Carruth.) In his three-year run with the Panthers, Polian drafted a grand total of one OL on the first day of the draft. (Blake Brockermeyer, #1-1995.) He also picked a QB, 2 RBs, 2 WRs, and 2 DBs.

 

Still, I'll give you Glenn: with him on the roster, Polian has had no reason to spend a high pick on another LT. That's one out of five starting spots. Meadows started most of the Colts' games from 1997-2002; Indy's cumulative regular-season record in those years was 45-51. He was in and out of the lineup with various injuries in '03, and out of football after that season (before attempting a comeback with Denver this year). Polian replaced him with 2001 fourth-round pick Ryan Diem. Dylan Gandy, this year's starting LG, was also drafted in the fourth round; Jake Scott was a fifth-rounder, Jeff Saturday and Ryan Lilja UDFAs. Some other recent Colts OL starters: Steve Sciullo and Steve McKinney (both 4th), Rick DeMulling and Tupe Peko (both 7th), Larry Moore (UDFA).

 

Just for giggles: Polian was the Buffalo GM for seven seasons, John Butler eight, Tom Donahoe five. Let's break down the OL draft history for each, through the first seven rounds:

#1 picks: BP 2 (Wolford 1986, Fina 1992); JB 1 (R. Brown 1995), TD 1 (M. Williams 2002).

 

Rounds 2-3:

BP 2 (Leonard Burton #3-1986, Glenn Parker #3-1990)

JB 2 (Corey Louchiey #3-1994, Robert Hicks #3-1998)

TD 1 (Jonas Jennings #3-2001)

 

Rounds 4-7:

BP 2 (Tim Borcky #7-1988, Brent Griffith #7-1990)

JB 7 (Mike Devlin #5-1993, Corbin Lacina #6-1993, Tom Nutten #7-1995, Dusty Zeigler #6-1996, Jamie Nails #4-1997, Marcus Spriggs #6-1997, Victor Allotey #7-1998)

TD 6 (Marques Sullivan #5-2001, Mike Pucillo #7-2002, Ben Sobieski #5-2003, Dylan McFarland #7-2004, Duke Preston #4-2005, Justin Geisinger #6-2005)

 

Looking at Polian's history, the five-time NFL Executive of the Year's gameplan is obvious: spend high picks on 'skill' players, fill in the 'big uglies' later... almost the exact opposite of the Belichick/Pioli blueprint, which has seen them use no fewer than SEVEN #1 or #2 picks on the OL/DL since 2000. Interesting to compare/contrast their methods...

[MDH]

The bottom line in this discussion is that it doesn't matter when you grab your OL/DL but you HAVE to have to be solid in the trenches to be competitive. The same can not be said about any other area. You can mask other deficiencies but you can't mask the lines. So, if a team’s scouting department is talented enough to find those linemen in the later rounds then so much the better. But if they can’t then they have no other option but to use first day picks to attempt to fill the lines.

 

To that point the Bills scouting department done a horrible job of finding diamonds in the rough (or perhaps it’s the coaching staff that’s done a poor job developing them, who knows) so Imo it’s time to try another strategy. We’ve tried the lower tier FA and second day draft pick route for a decade and for whatever reason(s) it hasn’t worked. I’m ready for something else.

[mike1011]

Always one exception. Draft em' early and often and you be rewarded more often than not.

835502[/snapback]

 

Like the Raiders?

[Orton's Arm]

Looking at Polian's history, the five-time NFL Executive of the Year's gameplan is obvious: spend high picks on 'skill' players, fill in the 'big uglies' later... almost the exact opposite of the Belichick/Pioli blueprint, which has seen them use no fewer than SEVEN #1 or #2 picks on the OL/DL since 2000. Interesting to compare/contrast their methods...

I couldn't help but notice that very little of the Bills' Super Bowl line came from the Polian draft picks you mentioned. Kent Hull, Jim Ritcher, Howard Ballard--those guys aren't on your list. It's easy for a skill-heavy draft to look like a smart choice if you're going to have a line like that anyway. The early Will Wolford pick nicely rounded out that group.

[dave mcbride]

Great topic.  The Vikings have done what many people want us to do.  It really hasn't worked so far.  The Raiders have also tried this method and may have constructed the worst line in history (with ours just behind  ).

 

On the other hand, teams like Colts, Pats, & Chargers have found FAs and lower draft picks and made it work.  So my question is simple: Why the hell haven't the Bills been able to do this 15 years???

 

Is it the drafting?  Well obviously, the right guys aren't getting picked.  However, Rueben Brown was a pro bowler every year.  Travis Henry had back to back 1,300 yards seasons when a lot of fans think he was an average back (I disagree and always thought Henry was a good back.  )  Obviously, Mike Williams set us back but it seemed like the right pick at the type.

 

Is it coaching?  I thought we hired one of the best line coaches in football.  He coached the Giants very average line to a Super Bowl with an immobile qb.

 

Is it the Free Agents we sign?  It is impossible to keep all high draft pick and quality linemen on your team.  So you need help.  But for some reason, we always pick the wrong ones.  Personally, I thought the Fowler and Reyes, who started on quality teams last year would help.  So far, it looks liek I was wrong.

 

Is it the coordinator?  It appears Fairchild is joining the racks of Pendry, Gilbride, and Henning.  Our offense has sucked for like 9 of the last 10 years.

 

Is the QB?  Losman, Collins, Johnson, Bledsoe.  Did they all suck because they truly sucked?  Or did they suck because they were behind an awful line.  Bad QB play can make a line look a lot worse than it is.

 

I honestly I have no idea any of the answers to these questions.  If someone could provide some answers that would be great.    I am so sick of these questions going unanswered year after year.  Just once it would be great to see us be able to keep 5 guys together and feel confident going into the next year.  God, this depresses me. 

836264[/snapback]

good post, but a couple of quibbles. henning is a very good offensive coordinator who had nothing to work with here. the same may be true of fairchild, who to my mind hasn't done anything egregious.

 

the other thing - the key to line success is continuity. of course, there will always be a little bit of turnover, but if you can keep three foundational players - a center, an LT, and either a really good guard or a decent RT, you can plug in other guys as the years pass.

[Lori]

I couldn't help but notice that very little of the Bills' Super Bowl line came from the Polian draft picks you mentioned. Kent Hull, Jim Ritcher, Howard Ballard--those guys aren't on your list. It's easy for a skill-heavy draft to look like a smart choice if you're going to have a line like that anyway. The early Will Wolford pick nicely rounded out that group.

836610[/snapback]

And each of those guys got here in a different way: Ritcher was a #1 pick by a previous GM, Hull was a 'street' FA (who probably would've been drafted if he hadn't signed with the USFL right out of school), House Ballard was an 11th-rounder, and the other starter on the Super Bowl squads, John Davis, was a Plan B free agent (and also an 11th-round pick by his original team).

 

So perhaps there's an addition/correction due the Polian method: make sure you find a Grade A left tackle if you don't already have one, hold onto him by whatever means necessary, and then fill in around him. (Not being allowed to re-sign Wolford was what doomed the Polian-RCWjr. relationship, IMO.)

[bills_fan]

(Not being allowed to re-sign Wolford was what doomed the Polian-RCWjr. relationship, IMO.)

 

Story?

[Orton's Arm]

And each of those guys got here in a different way: Ritcher was a #1 pick by a previous GM, Hull was a 'street' FA (who probably would've been drafted if he hadn't signed with the USFL right out of school), House Ballard was an 11th-rounder, and the other starter on the Super Bowl squads, John Davis, was a Plan B free agent (and also an 11th-round pick by his original team).

 

So perhaps there's an addition/correction due the Polian method: make sure you find a Grade A left tackle if you don't already have one, hold onto him by whatever means necessary, and then fill in around him. (Not being allowed to re-sign Wolford was what doomed the Polian-RCWjr. relationship, IMO.)

836728[/snapback]

To summarize, some of that line (Wolford/Ritcher) came from early round picks. But mostly it was based on 11th round draft picks and street free agents and the like. I wonder why the Bills were so much more successful with late round OL picks and street free agents back then, than they've been recently?

 

One possible explanation is that back then, they emphasized mental traits such as work ethic, toughness, intelligence, that sort of thing. But maybe a guy like TD placed more emphasis on athletic ability, and less on that other stuff. I don't know.