Abortion Ban Rejected

[daquixers_is_back]

75th trimester = 18th birthday

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Wouldnt it be more like his 19th B-day? 75/4 = 18.75? Well anyway.

[Chilly]

Wouldnt it be more like his 19th B-day? 75/4 = 18.75? Well anyway.

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No, the .75 = time in the womb.

[bartshan-83]

Wouldnt it be more like his 19th B-day? 75/4 = 18.75? Well anyway.

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Wow, in a very strange, indirect and accidental way, you just said you that life starts at birth, not conception.

 

To answer your question, you are starting your count a little too late...

[daquixers_is_back]

No, the .75 = time in the womb.

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Oh, OK.

[Chilly]

Wow, in a very strange, indirect and accidental way, you just said you that life starts at birth, not conception.

 

To answer your question, you are starting your count a little too late...

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owned

[Tux of Borg]

What's the key word there, Rambo? Oh yeah, the police.

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True, Rambo would have used an explosive arrow and made a big mess. I guess it's better the police used him as a bullet receptacle instead.

[justnzane]

I don't like it on several levels. First, once he gets out in 15 - 25 years, there's the chance he might rape again. Then, there's the chance that some liberal might get elected governor, mismanage the budget, and decide to cut prison spending to free up money for waste elsewhere in the system. I've seen liberals cut prison spending by releasing criminals early.

 

Dead criminals can't be released from jail.

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ok i know that prison spending has went up 167% since 1980, and the education spending has went up 30% since then (these numbers are not adjusted for inflation, so if you look at it education has gotten the shaft while prison spending has jumped at a rate higher than inflation). Typically the more you invest in education, the less you spend on prison spending and the crime rate drops. So my solution is that you gradually increase educational funding and take it away from prison spending as the need for prisons should go down.

[PastaJoe]

So my solution is that you gradually increase educational funding and take it away from prison spending as the need for prisons should go down.

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Having more job opportunities for high school graduates would help too, but it's tough when the outsourcing of jobs overseas and healthcare costs are forcing a downward push where college grads and older folks are taking jobs that used to be done by high school grads, leaving high school grads with less options. Some end up taking the wrong path because they lose hope in their future job opportunities.

[daquixers_is_back]

Wow, in a very strange, indirect and accidental way, you just said you that life starts at birth, not conception.

 

To answer your question, you are starting your count a little too late...

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I dont know anyone who counts his day of conception as his actual "birthday"

[justnzane]

Having more job opportunities for high school graduates would help too, but it's tough when the outsourcing of jobs overseas and healthcare costs are forcing a downward push where college grads and older folks are taking jobs that used to be done by high school grads, leaving high school grads with less options.  Some end up taking the wrong path because they lose hope in their future job opportunities.

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Very true, and very well spoken. I am definitely one for backing out of the Free Trade Agreements, because they have not been beneficial to middle america. But yeah, with the lack of job openings, you have to have some credentials to get a job now and days. That said, the boomers are starting to retire soon and that may open up the job market a bit, but also may collapse the social security system

[Orton's Arm]

ok i know that prison spending has went up 167% since 1980, and the education spending has went up 30% since then (these numbers are not adjusted for inflation, so if you look at it education has gotten the shaft while prison spending has jumped at a rate higher than inflation). Typically the more you invest in education, the less you spend on prison spending and the crime rate drops. So my solution is that you gradually increase educational funding and take it away from prison spending as the need for prisons should go down.

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I find your education spending number exceptionally difficult to believe. The U.S. spends more per child on education than any other major nation in the world. However, the U.S. education produces the worst results of any industrialized nation. The problem with education isn't that we're failing to dump enough money down the rathole of our existing system. The problem with the U.S. education system is that education dollars are allocated by federal, state, and local bureaucrats, instead of by parents choosing the best schools for their children.

 

Now consider the influence of the National Educators Association--the most powerful teachers' union in the U.S. For many years, its head was an outright socialist, who wanted to produce equality of educational results for all children. To achieve this goal, he successfully influenced public schools to dumb down their textbooks. Sentence structures were simplified, complex ideas removed, difficult words eliminated. While this change harmed gifted children the most, it also harmed children of average intelligence. The least intelligent students did receive some benefit however; because the material was no longer beyond their ability to understand.

 

To address the other part of your post, I also favor a decrease in prison spending. This decrease should be achieved by a dramatic increase in the number of executions, coupled with a speedier and less arduous pre-execution process.

 

Edit: the other crime fighting measure I advocate is a far broader interpretation of self-defense. The fact that someone is breaking into your house while you're in it ought to be a legal justification for lethal force against the intruder.

[Bungee Jumper]

I find your education spending number exceptionally difficult to believe.

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Unsurprising. They're numbers.

[Orton's Arm]

Unsurprising.  They're numbers.

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He's claiming that, since 1980, education spending has risen by only 30% in nominal terms, which (at a 3% inflation rate) implies that, in real terms, education spending is only 60% of what it was back then. Even if the annual inflation was only 2%, real spending would only be 78% of what it was back then. Do you honestly think there's any truth to this claim?

[Bungee Jumper]

He's claiming that, since 1980, education spending has risen by only 30% in nominal terms, which (at a 3% inflation rate) implies that, in real terms, education spending is only 60% of what it was back then. Even if the annual inflation was only 2%, real spending would only be 78% of what it was back then. Do you honestly think there's any truth to this claim?

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What does it matter what you or I believe? Particularly when it's factual information that anyone with a brain can look up in about thirty seconds, like I did.

[Orton's Arm]

What does it matter what you or I believe?  Particularly when it's factual information that anyone with a brain can look up in about thirty seconds, like I did.

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Thanks for adding to this discussion by actually sharing the numbers you found.

[justnzane]

I find your education spending number exceptionally difficult to believe. The U.S. spends more per child on education than any other major nation in the world. However, the U.S. education produces the worst results of any industrialized nation. The problem with education isn't that we're failing to dump enough money down the rathole of our existing system. The problem with the U.S. education system is that education dollars are allocated by federal, state, and local bureaucrats, instead of by parents choosing the best schools for their children.

 

Now consider the influence of the National Educators Association--the most powerful teachers' union in the U.S. For many years, its head was an outright socialist, who wanted to produce equality of educational results for all children. To achieve this goal, he successfully influenced public schools to dumb down their textbooks. Sentence structures were simplified, complex ideas removed, difficult words eliminated. While this change harmed gifted children the most, it also harmed children of average intelligence. The least intelligent students did receive some benefit however; because the material was no longer beyond their ability to understand. 

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Ok. I have some disagreement with you here. But yeah, according the statistics my professor for my teaching class gave me last semester, only a 30% jump. Second, The U.S. has been producing garbage results, because they have overemphasized testing (is it really neccessary for our 3rd-8th graders to be taking national tests every year?) and because the school year is a bit shorter than every other industrialized country. Also, with the standardized testing approach, you have teachers, and administrators on a ton of pressure to get the kids to know specific things but not really in depth. You know its bad when kindergarteners don't get nap time anymore. Also, in america you have many more specialists at the school that focus on special ed (a really good thing), psychologist, counseling, therapy, etc. all of those things cover a lot of money. In addition, The U.S. is among the few countries that spends money for after school clubs and teams where the rest of the world, the parents have to pay for those things out of pocket. Imagine paying $500 a season for your kid to play ball another $100 for choir, and so on. The fact is that you either have to cut out these programs, which would kill communities in general, or you have to pony up for that stuff.

 

But I agree with your assessment of dumbing down textbooks to cover all levels. that is the compromise made for having kids who shouldn't be in the grade, in that class. We push too many kids up a grade when they are not ready and it kills the school system, when we have kids droppin out due to lack of confidence, or totally inept people graduating high school when they shouldn't be graduating middle school. That movement of dumbing down books has harmed the previous generation quite a bit by strippin the depth and context of important concepts, and making them quick facts that will easily be forgotten. For example, If I were to say "Michael Vick has herpes", you may get a good chuckle out of it, and most likely would forget after a given amount of time. If i said "Michael Vick had herpes, gave it to a nurse through unprotected intercourse, checked into a health clinic under the alias 'ron mexico', and eventually got sued by the girl", that data will stay with you much longer.

[Orton's Arm]

Ok. I have some disagreement with you here.  But yeah, according the statistics my professor for my teaching class gave me last semester, only a 30% jump. Second, The U.S. has been producing garbage results, because they have overemphasized testing (is it really neccessary for our 3rd-8th graders to be taking national tests every year?) and because the school year is a bit shorter than every other industrialized country. Also, with the standardized testing approach, you have teachers, and administrators on a ton of pressure to get the kids to know specific things but not really in depth. You know its bad when kindergarteners don't get nap time anymore. Also, in america you have many more specialists at the school that focus on special ed (a really good thing), psychologist, counseling, therapy, etc. all of those things cover a lot of money. In addition, The U.S. is among the few countries that spends money for after school clubs and teams where the rest of the world, the parents have to pay for those things out of pocket. Imagine paying $500 a season for your kid to play ball another $100 for choir, and so on. The fact is that you either have to cut out these programs, which would kill communities in general, or you have to pony up for that stuff.

Since we agree about your second paragraph, let me ask you this question: why do you want to put more money into the education system that dumbed down those textbooks? Why do you want students to invest their summers into the education system that dumbed down those textbooks?

 

Before we ask students to spend more of their time, or taxpayers more of their money, shouldn't we first ensure this time and money will be spent somewhat wisely?

 

I saw a Harvard study involving school vouchers. The parents of disadvantaged inner city students were given school vouchers, and their children were tested after a few years. However, there wasn't funding for all the students that applied. Those who applied but were rejected formed the control group. Voucher payments represented a smaller level of per-child education spending than the public school system undertakes. Yet the voucher students did better than the control group. In fact, their improvement was so prounounced that in just a few years' time, 1/3 of the black/white education gap had been closed. This was done without resorting to summer schooling, and while spending less money per child than we're doing now.

 

The U.S. school system has failed disadvantaged children. It's failed gifted children. It's failed middle class children of average intelligence. I suppose that the education system does a good job with special needs children from middle or upper class backgrounds, but that's about as far as I'm willing to go. The key to fixing the U.S. education system is to liberate dollars and children alike from the failed public school system.

[bartshan-83]

I dont know anyone who counts his day of conception as his actual "birthday"

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Uh yeah...me neither.

[justnzane]

Since we agree about your second paragraph, let me ask you this question: why do you want to put more money into the education system that dumbed down those textbooks? Why do you want students to invest their summers into the education system that dumbed down those textbooks?

 

Simple, the trend has been the past two or three years to move away from this, and the students need more time to learn if they receive this bad info

 

Before we ask students to spend more of their time, or taxpayers more of their money, shouldn't we first ensure this time and money will be spent somewhat wisely?

 

Yeah, of course. but then again we should have a C student in charge of who heads the Department of education either

 

I saw a Harvard study involving school vouchers. The parents of disadvantaged inner city students were given school vouchers, and their children were tested after a few years. However, there wasn't funding for all the students that applied. Those who applied but were rejected formed the control group. Voucher payments represented a smaller level of per-child education spending than the public school system undertakes. Yet the voucher students did better than the control group. In fact, their improvement was so prounounced that in just a few years' time, 1/3 of the black/white education gap had been closed. This was done without resorting to summer schooling, and while spending less money per child than we're doing now.

 

But of course students are going to do better in better schools, but i believe that you should crowd students into schools forcing others to be shut down, when we can give more individual attention (which is huge) and improve the existing schools that we have.

The U.S. school system has failed disadvantaged children. It's failed gifted children. It's failed middle class children of average intelligence. I suppose that the education system does a good job with special needs children from middle or upper class backgrounds, but that's about as far as I'm willing to go. The key to fixing the U.S. education system is to liberate dollars and children alike from the failed public school system.

 

I agree to a point there, the disadvantaged kids are the ones who are getting the shaft the most, and coming from a poor background i am huge on trying to get the poor the best education possible. The only solutions i see as reasonable are making sure that every school in the state has a baseline amount of money per student being spent that can be supplemented by a state fund or federal funds. The other is requiring all teachers to have a quality education w/ training in education and in the content they are teaching (ie a social studies teacher having a history/ archaeology major) as well as a masters' degree, and continuing education oppurtunities to keep their methodology up to date.

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[Bungee Jumper]

Thanks for adding to this discussion by actually sharing the numbers you found. 

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They're numbers. You wouldn't understand them anyway.