Dan Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 4 of 5 sacks were his fault. He missed Evans on that 2nd quarter throw! That was a terrible throw and should have been a TD. If you exchanged Tom Brady and JP and kept everything else the same our line would then be "great" The QB has to make quick decisions, he just has to! If you want a QB to have 5-6 seconds to throw the ball go watch high school football. It does not happen conssistently in the NFL. It just doesn't! If you also want receivers to have 10 yards of separation from the defenders on every play go watch Pop Warner. This is the NFL! You need a QB who can throw accurately and a WR is open when there is a yard or two separation from the defenders. 827744[/snapback] Good point. Let's trade for Brady and we're in good shape. Get er done Marv.
Dibs Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 .....If you exchanged Tom Brady and JP and kept everything else the same our line would then be "great"....827744[/snapback] Sorry for laughing at you but....
Ray Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 Just like how the Patriots had an "awful" OL, Bledsoe went down (and the only reason he was sucking was the the OL) and in comes Brady. And guess what? They won the Super Bowl that year with such a bad OL. Brady would make this line look good. They are an average line in this league! 20 other tema shave average lines--a great QB makes the line look great. A QB that can't get rid of the ball, can't read defenses and can't make good decisions makes the line terrible.
PacificCoastBillsFan Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 Just like how the Patriots had an "awful" OL, Bledsoe went down (and the only reason he was sucking was the the OL) and in comes Brady. And guess what? They won the Super Bowl that year with such a bad OL. Brady would make this line look good. They are an average line in this league! 20 other tema shave average lines--a great QB makes the line look great. A QB that can't get rid of the ball, can't read defenses and can't make good decisions makes the line terrible. 827755[/snapback] We are not talking about the same year that DB won the AFC championship game because brady got knocked out are you
Ray Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 Yes that same year that he started out 0-2 and Brady won the SB for them! Something Bledsoe never did for them. Isn't it amazing as well how Dallas' line was terrible this year and they substitute one player---yes one player. A QB who can actually get rid of the ball quickly and the line is instantly better. How come the same line last year gave up almost half the amount of sacks with Kelly Holcomb as they did with JP? It was the same line and the same amount of pass attempts.
Dibs Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 Just like how the Patriots had an "awful" OL, Bledsoe went down (and the only reason he was sucking was the the OL) and in comes Brady. And guess what? They won the Super Bowl that year with such a bad OL. Brady would make this line look good. They are an average line in this league! 20 other tema shave average lines--a great QB makes the line look great. A QB that can't get rid of the ball, can't read defenses and can't make good decisions makes the line terrible. 827755[/snapback] I thought similar until I did some actual research to back up my thoughts. Bledsoe in 2000...45 sacks Brady in 2001...41 sacks...2 less games. NE got... Woody round 1 in 99 Klemm round 2 in 00 Light round 2 in 01 These guys improved the line as time progressed.....and the guys that Bledsoe played with were still better than our line today. There is a HUGE difference between saying "a great QB can make a line look better and a crap QB can make a line look worse"....and what you said "a great QB would make our OL great".
PacificCoastBillsFan Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 Your right, in certain situations you can make a change like that and make the OL seem somewhat reliable. But I personally dont believe that would help this team. Look at all the experienced skilled players (mainly recievers) Dallas has. That plays a big part of it also.......In a nut shell I believe there is enough blame to go around.
MadBuffaloDisease Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 I thought similar until I did some actual research to back up my thoughts. Bledsoe in 2000...45 sacks Brady in 2001...41 sacks...2 less games. NE got... Woody round 1 in 99 Klemm round 2 in 00 Light round 2 in 01 These guys improved the line as time progressed.....and the guys that Bledsoe played with were still better than our line today. There is a HUGE difference between saying "a great QB can make a line look better and a crap QB can make a line look worse"....and what you said "a great QB would make our OL great". Good catch there Dibs. Basically that year, the Pats' defense and ST's won them their games. Like HD unwittingly pointed out, ANYONE could have won that AFCCG against the Steelers and anyone could have won the Rams SB. Brady has gotten better since then and Bledsoe has gotten worse, but let's not get ridiculous here. The Bills' interior O-line does NOT give JP a pocket and the WR's don't get open quickly enough and/or run AWAY from coverage and/or make adjustments on blitzes. Moreover, where are the outlet passes?
Ray Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 Sacks are only half the picture though as well. When a QB is under pressure and completes a pass rather than throwing it away or throwing an interception is a huge deal. I'm just making the point that our OL is not as bad as some make it out to be. It is amazing to me how this was the supposed reason Rob Johnson was never good--b/c the OL was horrible. They changed only one player and kept the line intact and guess what happened? The Bills started winning and went to the playoffs--remember those days? When the Bills went to the playoffs. It was the exact same situation in New England. I live in Boston and it was the same. Bledsoe would only be so much better if he had the time to throw. Well they changed one player--the QB and won the SB. Now Brady has a very average OL. They are not great at pass blocking or run blocking. Watch the games. Mulroney was constantly met by defenders in the backfield but would make a defender miss and then hit a hole. Brady is under pressure all the time. But he makes quick decisions and gets the ball out quickly. The Bills sacked Brady a handful of times and had him under pressure but he gets the ball out. I just want JP to do the same---dump it off, take a few yards over a sack etc.... Remeber how Dallas' OL was horrible this year until they replaced Bledsoe! Heck, the Bills OL looked much better last year with Holcomb then JP.
AnthonyF Posted November 7, 2006 Author Posted November 7, 2006 And if the Titans didn't complete 'Home Run Throw Back' Rob Johnson would be a Bills playoff legend. I can go with this all day and rewrite history. If you want to show your math skills. What is Losman's third down conversion percentage? How many times on third down does he complete a pass that results in first downs. Against the Packers Losman dropped back to pass eight times on third down. Converted once and took 2 sacks. I went to public school so my math may be off. But I think that's .125 coversion rate on third down. If it makes you feel better we can pretend all the incompletions and sacks were someone elses fault and we can add them to Losman's stats if it helps:w00t: 827585[/snapback] I love when people talk about the Tennesee playoff game... A miraculous game, where the Bills had 64 yards the first half, RJ threw for a staggering 10-22 & 131 yards fumbled twice and was sacked 6 times, three rushes 9 yards.... I think the fact that they had all of 64 first half yards and two fumbles and RJ still was out there the second half, pretty much summed up that something was afoul with Flutie sitting on the bench.
seq004 Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 Yeah, either none of the recievers are getting open or JP just can't find the open reciever or he's lost coinfidence in his ability to get the ball in the recievers hands
Sen. John Blutarsky Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 It isn't just the plays that he's sacked either. The TD to Evans was a perfect example of how the protection is screwing up the offense. Evans made a double move on Harris, JP held the ball until the exact second that Evans made his 2nd break. This is exactly what he's supposed to do. He threw the ball right on time to the right man who was open. He couldn't step into the throw because he was about to get crushed by the d-line so he got it out there to a place where he was pretty sure it'd be completed. It was underthrown but it was thrown, same thign happened on the eaqrlier throw to Evans that was dropped, if JP had the chance to step into the throw he would have had a chance to lay it out in front of Evans a little more and it would have been another very long TD. Those of you who talk about checkdowns, there are fewer checkdowns AVAILABLE when you have to keep TEs and backs in to block. If they're blocking they aren't running routes. When the last time we had less than 7 guys blocking on a passing down? Our backs can't get into routes because they're either chipping DE's or picking up blitzers and our TE's are generally helping our tackle. I think we are underutilizing people like Parrish (and even Evans) with our lack of WR screens but when it's 3rd and 8 it's tough to convert that regualrly with screen passes. Our offense has collectively contributed to it's own demise. How many times this year have we had a 4,5,or 6 yard run on first down only to false start on 2nd down and end up in 2nd and 11, 10, or 9? LOTS. We have negated our own success frequently. How many times have we gotten to 3rd and one and gotten stuffed in the backfield when we try to run for it? Recognizing the shortcomings of the offensive UNIT doesn't make one an apologist. I struggle to see where any QB would have success with the number of penalties and lack of protection that JP gets. Look what happened to McNabb last year in a sinmilar situation. His line was a sieve and they needed Westbrook and Smith to block, McNabb was awful. Look at how much better he is this season with less receiving talent because they can block better. Don't forget, Philly has more 3 step drops than anyone, it isn't a magic bullet. If you can't block you can't block and the defense knows it. They squat on all the short stuff and dare you to throw it deep. Why do you think that Harris bit on the same double move twice in the same game? They schemed all week to jump anything less than 15 yards because they beleived they would get to the QB before they could throw it further. They were right, except for those 2 plays, one was dropped, one was a 45 yard completion. Expect more of the same next week. Indy will gamble that Freeney and Brock can get to the QB before we can beat the coverage for long plays, why shouldn't they think that? Their LBs are very fast and cover very well so 3 step drops aren't going to fix that. We have to run the ball better, stop taking penalties, stop dropping passes and god forbid block better. The problem with this is it sets up a catch 22. If we run well any defense will bring a safety down into the box and creep up their corners for run support. It almost compounds our passing trouble if we don't block because it crowds the short throws even more and increases the number of blitzes the defense brings (even if they are "run blitzes" - in many respects a blitz is a blitz, a run blitz just tries to fill gaps, if that gap is vacant they get to the QB just like any other blitz). Running doesn't necessarily set up the pass. It sets up the intermediate to deep pass and if you can't block well enough to exploit that area you won't be able to throw at all. This is where we are as an offense right now. Again, it doesn't make me a JP apologist to be able to dissect a systemic problem rather than point the finger at one guy.
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 4 of 5 sacks were his fault. He missed Evans on that 2nd quarter throw! That was a terrible throw and should have been a TD. If you exchanged Tom Brady and JP and kept everything else the same our line would then be "great" The QB has to make quick decisions, he just has to! If you want a QB to have 5-6 seconds to throw the ball go watch high school football. It does not happen conssistently in the NFL. It just doesn't! If you also want receivers to have 10 yards of separation from the defenders on every play go watch Pop Warner. This is the NFL! You need a QB who can throw accurately and a WR is open when there is a yard or two separation from the defenders. 827744[/snapback] ray---you're into the eggnog early this year. if joe montana and brett favre got married, and then adopted a kid from troy aikman who had a fling with tom brady, and that kid was sent to a monestary to learn his skills from a monk who looked like steve young, and that kid ultimately was drafted by the bills and played behind this line, we'd still be struggling. we might not be struggling as much, whatever that gives us, but for God's sake acknowledge the line has issues.
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 I love when people talk about the Tennesee playoff game... A miraculous game, where the Bills had 64 yards the first half, RJ threw for a staggering 10-22 & 131 yards fumbled twice and was sacked 6 times, three rushes 9 yards.... I think the fact that they had all of 64 first half yards and two fumbles and RJ still was out there the second half, pretty much summed up that something was afoul with Flutie sitting on the bench. 828157[/snapback] but he PLAYED without a shoe.
MRW Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 The problem with this is it sets up a catch 22. If we run well any defense will bring a safety down into the box and creep up their corners for run support. It almost compounds our passing trouble if we don't block because it crowds the short throws even more and increases the number of blitzes the defense brings (even if they are "run blitzes" - in many respects a blitz is a blitz, a run blitz just tries to fill gaps, if that gap is vacant they get to the QB just like any other blitz). Running doesn't necessarily set up the pass. It sets up the intermediate to deep pass and if you can't block well enough to exploit that area you won't be able to throw at all. This is where we are as an offense right now. Again, it doesn't make me a JP apologist to be able to dissect a systemic problem rather than point the finger at one guy. 828216[/snapback] This is a great analysis! Thanks.
Buftex Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 Didn't you know? Only Buffalo receivers drop passes and no other QBs stats wouldn't be better if their receiver because every receiver in the NFL never drops a pass. 827549[/snapback] Kelly Holcomb, Drew Bledsoe, Rob Johnson, Doug Flutie, Todd Collins, Alex Van Pelt, and their respective apologists understand this, why can't everyone else?
AnthonyF Posted November 7, 2006 Author Posted November 7, 2006 It isn't just the plays that he's sacked either. The TD to Evans was a perfect example of how the protection is screwing up the offense. Evans made a double move on Harris, JP held the ball until the exact second that Evans made his 2nd break. This is exactly what he's supposed to do. He threw the ball right on time to the right man who was open. He couldn't step into the throw because he was about to get crushed by the d-line so he got it out there to a place where he was pretty sure it'd be completed. It was underthrown but it was thrown, same thign happened on the eaqrlier throw to Evans that was dropped, if JP had the chance to step into the throw he would have had a chance to lay it out in front of Evans a little more and it would have been another very long TD. Those of you who talk about checkdowns, there are fewer checkdowns AVAILABLE when you have to keep TEs and backs in to block. If they're blocking they aren't running routes. When the last time we had less than 7 guys blocking on a passing down? Our backs can't get into routes because they're either chipping DE's or picking up blitzers and our TE's are generally helping our tackle. I think we are underutilizing people like Parrish (and even Evans) with our lack of WR screens but when it's 3rd and 8 it's tough to convert that regualrly with screen passes. Our offense has collectively contributed to it's own demise. How many times this year have we had a 4,5,or 6 yard run on first down only to false start on 2nd down and end up in 2nd and 11, 10, or 9? LOTS. We have negated our own success frequently. How many times have we gotten to 3rd and one and gotten stuffed in the backfield when we try to run for it? Recognizing the shortcomings of the offensive UNIT doesn't make one an apologist. I struggle to see where any QB would have success with the number of penalties and lack of protection that JP gets. Look what happened to McNabb last year in a sinmilar situation. His line was a sieve and they needed Westbrook and Smith to block, McNabb was awful. Look at how much better he is this season with less receiving talent because they can block better. Don't forget, Philly has more 3 step drops than anyone, it isn't a magic bullet. If you can't block you can't block and the defense knows it. They squat on all the short stuff and dare you to throw it deep. Why do you think that Harris bit on the same double move twice in the same game? They schemed all week to jump anything less than 15 yards because they beleived they would get to the QB before they could throw it further. They were right, except for those 2 plays, one was dropped, one was a 45 yard completion. Expect more of the same next week. Indy will gamble that Freeney and Brock can get to the QB before we can beat the coverage for long plays, why shouldn't they think that? Their LBs are very fast and cover very well so 3 step drops aren't going to fix that. We have to run the ball better, stop taking penalties, stop dropping passes and god forbid block better. The problem with this is it sets up a catch 22. If we run well any defense will bring a safety down into the box and creep up their corners for run support. It almost compounds our passing trouble if we don't block because it crowds the short throws even more and increases the number of blitzes the defense brings (even if they are "run blitzes" - in many respects a blitz is a blitz, a run blitz just tries to fill gaps, if that gap is vacant they get to the QB just like any other blitz). Running doesn't necessarily set up the pass. It sets up the intermediate to deep pass and if you can't block well enough to exploit that area you won't be able to throw at all. This is where we are as an offense right now. Again, it doesn't make me a JP apologist to be able to dissect a systemic problem rather than point the finger at one guy. 828216[/snapback] Great post. However the offensive scheme has been terrible this year. Need more movment in the pocket from Losman, shot guns and a chance to see whether he can do anything, particularly indoors against a so so defence (yes they beat Brady, but Plummer and others have shown them to be very mediocre). JP if all remaining games are schemed as Sunday will not have a chance to show whether he has improved at all.
JPTheRealDeal07 Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 WHO CARES WE WON THE GAME, WE WON THE DAMN GAME WITHOUT OUR BEST PLAYER IN MCGAHEE! WHY IS EVERY F*CKING POST ON THIS BOARD ABOUT JP AND WHAT HE DID AND DIDN'T DO AND MIGHT HAVE DONE IF THIS GUY DIDNT DO THIS OR THIS GUY DIDNT DO THAT, my god...Sorry for the caps but this is absurd
Fan in San Diego Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 4 of 5 sacks were his fault. He missed Evans on that 2nd quarter throw! That was a terrible throw and should have been a TD. If you exchanged Tom Brady and JP and kept everything else the same our line would then be "great" The QB has to make quick decisions, he just has to! If you want a QB to have 5-6 seconds to throw the ball go watch high school football. It does not happen conssistently in the NFL. It just doesn't! If you also want receivers to have 10 yards of separation from the defenders on every play go watch Pop Warner. This is the NFL! You need a QB who can throw accurately and a WR is open when there is a yard or two separation from the defenders. 827744[/snapback] Fairchild needs to design plays with quick throws.
Buftex Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 Heck, the Bills OL looked much better last year with Holcomb then JP. 827783[/snapback] You are treading a very slippery slope, young man! If JP apologists want to praise him after the Green Bay win, all they need say is, he didn't turn the ball over at all, and, for the first time I can remember in his 17 starts, he made a big, meaningful play. He picked up his performance level on one play, to pull out a game. The Bills won, they didn't lose. Those are significant improvements for him. To continue to blame all of his woes on the O-line, however, is just being silly. They have their problems, that is obvious. But, name me more than 5 teams in the NFL that don't have problems with their O-line. Dealing with protection is part of the QB's job.
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