jjamie12 Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 On one of the (many) sacks yesterday, I thought to myself: "Damn JP, get rid of the ball!" Then I watched the slo-mo replay, and started counting... During the replay, I counted from the moment JP received the snap: 'One-one-thousand, two-one-thousand, three-oneSACK'. In the slo-mo replay. This got me to thinking: Do we, as Bills fans, have any idea what it means to 'hold on to the ball too long'? Have we been so disposed to bad offensive line play that we assume that anytime the QB can actually get to his fifth step on a five step drop that equals 'time to throw'? The game just looks completely different when you watch a decent team play football. The quarterback gets into his drop, sets up scans for a second and throws. Almost ALWAYS they get to three-one-thousand before the ball is out (unless it is a designed three-step drop), and most of the time, they even have a quarter or half beat longer. I ask you: Is our perception skewed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 To a degree our perception is skewed; the OL is bad...and has been for years, but they should be using 3 step drops and have him toss quick throws, but look at how many QBs we've been through, who hold the ball too long, take coverage sacks, etc... I know this is comparing Apples to Oranges...but look at what Peyton Manning did yesterday...The guy was had pressure all game long and he threw for over 300 yds... There is no way JP can play anywhere near that level...right now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wraith Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 On one of the (many) sacks yesterday, I thought to myself: "Damn JP, get rid of the ball!" Then I watched the slo-mo replay, and started counting... During the replay, I counted from the moment JP received the snap: 'One-one-thousand, two-one-thousand, three-oneSACK'. In the slo-mo replay. This got me to thinking: Do we, as Bills fans, have any idea what it means to 'hold on to the ball too long'? Have we been so disposed to bad offensive line play that we assume that anytime the QB can actually get to his fifth step on a five step drop that equals 'time to throw'? The game just looks completely different when you watch a decent team play football. The quarterback gets into his drop, sets up scans for a second and throws. Almost ALWAYS they get to three-one-thousand before the ball is out (unless it is a designed three-step drop), and most of the time, they even have a quarter or half beat longer. I ask you: Is our perception skewed? 826589[/snapback] Great thread topic. I would say our perception is almost certainly skewed, but how does one quantify it? It would be amazing if the league actually tracked time to sack, instead of the woefully useless "sacks." It would take a pretty good effort by an amateur to do the same thing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wraith Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 To a degree our perception is skewed; the OL is bad...and has been for years, but they should be using 3 step drops and have him toss quick throws, but look at how many QBs we've been through, who hold the ball too long, take coverage sacks, etc... I know this is comparing Apples to Oranges...but look at what Peyton Manning did yesterday...The guy was had pressure all game long and he threw for over 300 yds... There is no way JP can play anywhere near that level...right now... 826600[/snapback] In last night's game, the Colts ability to hit quick slants and adjust to hot routes was what was working so well against the pressure. The problem the Bills had yesterday was they usually only had two receivers going out for a pass, so quick passes and hot routes were non-existant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary M Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 I ask you: Is our perception skewed? 826589[/snapback] YES On one of the call in shows after the game, a caller asked why JP was not getting rid of the ball after 5-6 seconds. What game was he watching? Even on the TD to Evans, he only had 3-4 seconds, and still got hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 In last night's game, the Colts ability to hit quick slants and adjust to hot routes was what was working so well against the pressure. The problem the Bills had yesterday was they usually only had two receivers going out for a pass, so quick passes and hot routes were non-existant. 826606[/snapback] I agree....it's been years since were able to play like that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjamie12 Posted November 6, 2006 Author Share Posted November 6, 2006 I really don't want this thread to turn into an argument about JP. There are plenty of other threads for that. I'm just wondering if we have a skewed perspective of what 'time to throw' means? Another thing that I noticed yesterday, mostly watching the Colts-Pats. Typically, when there was immediate pressure, it was only one player, and the QB (either one) would easily slide to the left or right and then have plenty of time to make a play. It seems to me that most of the time, when JP gets sacked, there are two defensive players meeting at the QB. It just looks like a jailbreak out there sometimes. Now, this isn't always the case, for sure, but it happens multiple times a game. Yesterday, I can remember three sacks for sure that were just absolute jailbreaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewin Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 P. Manning is obviously at the top end of the spectrum - but take a look at the game last night and how many throws he made fighting for his life, with people in his face, with pockets seemingly imploding on him, on his *tiptoes* for God's sake with people a millisecond from obliterating him. I personally am sick of 'having time to throw' being an end-all excuse for pathetic QB play. Good QBs make bad lines look better. There is not a situation in the league where *any* QB routinely has all day to throw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdubs Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 it's nice to see someone actually paying attention rather than start another "blame jp" thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye Eric Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 To a degree our perception is skewed; the OL is bad...and has been for years, but they should be using 3 step drops and have him toss quick throws, but look at how many QBs we've been through, who hold the ball too long, take coverage sacks, etc... 826600[/snapback] Interesting observation. If you take several different cars to the same mechanic and they all continue to have problems, at some point you need to rule out that it is a problem with the cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 Interesting observation. If you take several different cars to the same mechanic and they all continue to have problems, at some point you need to rule out that it is a problem with the cars. 826694[/snapback] LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zow2 Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 It's hard to quantify the time given to a QB. I saw plays yesterday where he had time but threw low/high or had a tipped pass at the line. My feeling is the Bills O-line is below avg but there are probably 10 other teams with similar O-line problems. More than anything I'm really disappointed in JP's "escapability". That part of his game was really overrated coming in. When the line starts to cave i'd like to see his instincts take over. He could make this line look a little better. Last night i see Roethlisberger juking and jiving all over the place buying himself time and diving for some 1st downs and he is bigger/slower/less mobile than JP. JP seems to backpedal until he is swarmed under. He can't process/read defense/and instinctively escape pressure all at the same time...YET. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynchMob23 Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 Good topic and here's a little bit to add to it: a few years ago when we played NE on SNF, they brought up the timer they used for Bledsoe and the time he had. When they showed it, he had 3.9 seconds before he could get the pass off and they said he took too long. Then, later they showed Brady and he had, amazingly enough 3.9 seconds for a play and they said he had a quick release and great protection. It was quite funny and as always an ESPN half-stat. I would say time is relative to the drop-back of the pass and the protection called. I have a book by Walsh that breaks down the times, and when I get a chance I'll copy it and post it here to add to the discussion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cale Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 Having all the time in the world doesn't help - when your receivers can't get open. For a team with so much book speed at receiver, our WRs sure have a tough time getting open...Folks say JP locks onto Evans too much - no s***? He's the only guy that seems to get open besides Roscoe. Sure the OL is a huge problem - but everything except maybe our RBs need help right now. JP is playing awful - but at least he's trying to play the way he's being coached. Which I think is also leading him to be less mobile by design. They want him to progress thru his reads. So much so he is not letting his instincts take over. They should just take the friggin' cuffs off him and maybe see if they can get the OL to give him an extra 2 secs. Not for him - but for the damn receivers to find some space!! Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjamie12 Posted November 6, 2006 Author Share Posted November 6, 2006 I would rather that this thread remain a 'Is our sense of what constitutes time to throw off?' thread, rather than a re-tread of all of the JP good, JP bad threads. I find myself saying "Get rid of the ball!!!" as soon as our QB hits the 5th step of his drop, and I don't find myself saying this as much when I watch other games. I'm just wondering if my sense of timing is off, given our recent experience as Bills fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cale Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 I would rather that this thread remain a 'Is our sense of what constitutes time to throw off?' thread, rather than a re-tread of all of the JP good, JP bad threads. I find myself saying "Get rid of the ball!!!" as soon as our QB hits the 5th step of his drop, and I don't find myself saying this as much when I watch other games. I'm just wondering if my sense of timing is off, given our recent experience as Bills fans. 826863[/snapback] Yes, I think you're right...BuT I was also trying to make the point, that a lot of the folks here want the quick fix(it's the QB, it's the OLine, It's the WRs, it's the janitor) when there is no quick fix. It's a systemic problem...The perceived lack of time is a combination of factors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afrodziak Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 Another thing i think that should be pointed out on this topic is the effect the lack of time has on a QB over the longer term. The fact is the Bills line is not so horrible as to be like Houston was early in David Carr's career when they ran that commercial with just him under an imaginary center, no visible OL and a box of 8 slobbering defensemen waiting for the snap... I mean they dont suck rocks on EVERY passing down. So what happens is when he has time, it seems like its often wasted when a. receivers cant separate b. DL bats pass down c. QB misses receiver or cant find the open guy. Of course conversely when the poor bastard gets just 2.1 seconds to get rid of it, there's two open receivers at the tail end of his progression, of course he'll be looking at the pretty cloud formations long before he sees those guys! Anyway im off my own topic already, which is that when the line is often a turnstile, the QB has no way to really know if he's gonna have 2 seconds or 5 back there, so naturally he is going to feel rushed even when he might actually have all day and this is why you sometimes get those errant throws because while we can see that no one is bearing down - he must be seeing 'grudge' like apparations of linemen bearing down on him from out of nowhere by now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wraith Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 Please tell me this is sarcasm. EDIT: Guess it wasn't, as the post was deleted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 Please tell me this is sarcasm. EDIT: Guess it wasn't, as the post was deleted... 827148[/snapback] It was, but not worth keeping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wraith Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 It was, but not worth keeping. 827154[/snapback] Gotcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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