Do I hate the Pats so Much

[ILoveTomBrady]

What the fug kind of rationale is that?  The Pats were the better team so the fact that they get consistantly massaged by the refs doesn't matter?  Who gives a crap if the Vikes wouldn't have won regardless of the poor officiating in the Pats' favor?  That's not the point of the thread. 

 

The point was/is, the number of calls going the Pats way at critical points in the game is observably skewed in their favor over the past several years.  By your logic, there shouldn't be any referrees at all in these games because of the vast superiority of Tom Brady and your squad of HOF'ers. 

 

What a joke.

821998[/snapback]

 

do you see this blue box above this type? it has a header QUOTE(XXX). You know what that is? that's called "quoting" someone, and the following post is responding specifically to whatever is quoted.

 

my post was responding to someone who was talking as if the calls had any impact on who won the game. If you bothered to read my other posts you'd see that i agreed the refs were horrible in Monday's game.

 

And Timmo1805, I thought the refs turning a blind eye to Dillon was wrong. The league has set a tough standard when it comes to conduct, and ignored that standard on that play. It should have been called. I'd normally agree with you on plays changing a game, but Monday's game wasn't even close. It was as exception.

[Johnny Coli]

do you see this blue box above this type? it has a header QUOTE(XXX). You know what that is? that's called "quoting" someone, and the following post is responding specifically to whatever is quoted.

 

my post was responding to someone who was talking as if the calls had any impact on who won the game. If you bothered to read my other posts you'd see that i agreed the refs were horrible in Monday's game.

822090[/snapback]

Yeah, I can read, troll. His point was that there are certain points in a game where it could be turned around. Your post was that it didn't matter because your team-of-the-moment could score at will on the hapless Vikes. This being a thread about how your squad benefits from those calls usually at the critical points in a game he is referring to, one could very well assume that your point also alludes to the penalties that seem to always favor your squad.

[jdubs]

I agree there's favoritism. Just read Peter Kings column on SI. You'd think that him and Tom Brady have been dating each other for years.

[ILoveTomBrady]

I agree there's favoritism.  Just read Peter Kings column on SI.  You'd think that him and Tom Brady have been dating each other for years.

822115[/snapback]

 

I do wonder if King's family is ok with him dating Brady and Jeter. Every time he writes "all that brady/jeter does is win" I want to strangle him.

 

A sportswriter and refs are distinctly different people though and just because some writers have crushes on the Pats doesn't have anything to do with game calls.

 

Thankfully Peter King doesn't ref games. A holding penalty would turn into storytime. "Holding, #80, offense. Let me tell you about my daughter's softball team. They played the #1 team in the country and, while they lost, they showed determination and sportsmanship blah blah blah"

[bizell]

I liked how Corey Dillon caught a screen pass, got tackled, and then proceeded to throw the ball across the field.

 

no delay of game/unsportsmanlike conduct penalty.

 

i like how Ben Watson broke EJ Henderson's tackle on a catch late in the game, then got tackled and spiked the ball right by Henderson's head.

 

no penalty.

[daquixers_is_back]

Did you catch the part where NE scored at will? Did you notice that the Vikings offense didn't score a single point against the NE defense?

 

But you're right, hypothetically if the Vikings score and if hypothetically Brady and Co. are stopped then the Vikings would have been down by only 10 with the ball and if they were able to score again and stop NE again and....

 

I understand the "what if" game, but not when one team dominated another. The turning point ended up being the opening drive when NE went spread and Minnesota couldn't do a thing to stop them. Minnesota went into the game knowing they didn't have a very good offense and the key would be containing NE, which they could not.

821927[/snapback]

 

I guess I did miss that part ... think about it. NE scored in the 3rd quarter because Maroney got them to the 20 yard line. OF COURSE YOUR GOING TO SCORE IF YOUR STARTING AT YOUR OPPONENTS 20!

 

Minnesota didnt score any points ... partially thanks to the refs calling phantom offensive pass interferences and calling fumbles out of bounds for a 1st bound an incomplete pass.

 

P.S. Minnesota probably would have lost ... but guess what ... we will never know because the refs didnt make it fair.

[smokinandjokin]

Daq-

 

In response to your reply in the Colts-Pats thread, because I don't want that to dissolve into the same mess as this thread:

 

Oh I forgot your the one who thought the NE-Vikings game was fair. 

822321[/snapback]

 

You're right, the Vikings-Pats game wasn't fair. One team dominated the other.

 

The Patriots benefit from a lot of close calls. So do the Colts. So do all good teams. You know why? Because they're good. Is there something subconscious with the refs, that they are used to seeing Tom Brady throw completions and Marvin Harrison catch passes, that when they don't the refs assume a penalty occurred? I dunno, maybe. But that's what being good earns you. Michael Jordan benefited from a lot of calls also, and very few consider him a fluke or a product of officiating.

[ILoveTomBrady]

I guess I did miss that part ... think about it. NE scored in the 3rd quarter because Maroney got them to the 20 yard line. OF COURSE YOUR GOING TO SCORE IF YOUR STARTING AT YOUR OPPONENTS 20!

 

Minnesota didnt score any points ... partially thanks to the refs calling phantom offensive pass interferences and calling fumbles out of bounds for a 1st bound an incomplete pass.

 

P.S. Minnesota probably would have lost ... but guess what ... we will never know because the refs didnt make it fair.

822226[/snapback]

 

the maroney return was immediately after and effectively negated minnesota's punt return. that was 1 out of 4 touchdowns attributed to special teams. That was one of 2 scores in the 3rd.

 

as for the crappy calls... the PI was at the minnesota 27. You might believe that, had the PI call not happened, minnesota would have driven 70 yards for a touchdown. lets look at the results of their other drives: punt, int, int, end of half, punt, downs, punt, int, punt, downs, int. It looks like a punt or int would have been a much more likely result of the drive. 70 yards to go on a day the offense can't muster anything is far from the refs taking points away.

 

and the wiggins call was made with the score 24-7 with minn on the NE 38. definitely took away a field goal chance, and even if minny magically got into the end zone it would have simply made it 24-14 it hurt but once more wasn't a guaranteed touchdown taken away.

 

Whatever, i've already said they were crappy calls. we're just going to have to agree to disagree if you think that a couple crappy calls on non-scoring plays at all affected that game. if you watched it you saw a Vikings defense that couldn't do much of anything to stop NE's passing attack, and a NE defense which chased johnson from the game.

 

i should probably just let this thread die. i'm happy to discuss the viewpoint that the Pats get all the calls, but when i get drawn into questions of whether the pats would have won a 31-7 game had a couple non-critical (not involvinjg change of possession or putting/taking points off the board) calls not been made i feel silly.

[plenzmd1]

the maroney return was immediately after and effectively negated minnesota's punt return. that was 1 out of 4 touchdowns attributed to special teams. That was one of 2 scores in the 3rd.

 

as for the crappy calls... the PI was at the minnesota 27. You might believe that, had the PI call not happened, minnesota would have driven 70 yards for a touchdown. lets look at the results of their other drives: punt, int, int, end of half, punt, downs, punt, int, punt, downs, int. It looks like a punt or int would have been a much more likely result of the drive. 70 yards to go on a day the offense can't muster anything is far from the refs taking points away.

 

and the wiggins call was made with the score 24-7 with minn on the NE 38. definitely took away a field goal chance, and even if minny magically got into the end zone it would have simply made it 24-14 it hurt but once more wasn't a guaranteed touchdown taken away.

 

Whatever, i've already said they were crappy calls. we're just going to have to agree to disagree if you think that a couple crappy calls on non-scoring plays at all affected that game. if you watched it you saw a Vikings defense that couldn't do much of anything to stop NE's passing attack, and a NE defense which chased johnson from the game.

 

i should probably just let this thread die. i'm happy to discuss the viewpoint that the Pats get all the calls, but when i get drawn into questions of whether the pats would have won a 31-7 game had a couple non-critical (not involvinjg change of possession or putting/taking points off the board) calls not been made i feel silly.

822356[/snapback]

 

I agree with you here Tom, and my original point of the thread was I was wondering if the Pats are truly getting the benefit of one sided oficiating, or if I just was seeing what I wanted to see. The Pats were a MUCH better team than the Vikes, and clearly are in a differant world than our beloved Bills. Only slight modification I would make is the non-call on Teddy at the goaline "could" be a scoring play, or at least its not an INT. Thats a big call when the game is 7-0, and instaed of first down Vikes, Its first down Pats.

 

Offensive PI, down and distance goes from first and ten, to 3rd and thirteen, bingo pick next play. Again, pick may have happened anyway, but ya just do notknow.

 

That being said, as a Pats fan, do you see things the same as I do? Do you think they get an inordinate amount of calls that go their way?

[ILoveTomBrady]

I haven't seen the bruschi play. The tv crew didn't pick up on it and I didn't dvr the game. assuming it was a penalty which would have granted a 1st down then it was huge, as Minny would have been pretty much guaranteed a td and a tie game.

 

they actually punted after the interference call

 

Yes, the Pats get quite a few calls go their way. During games, though, I notice calls go against them too. I never remember them afterwards though when they win, which is most of the time. Conversely, I remember the Pats getting screwed against Denver in the playoffs as if it happened yesterday (The Pats played poorly and I'm not saying that they deserved to win, I'm just saying that two crucial calls went against them). I bet if you went through the tape you could probably find some calls that went against denver: I don't remember them because I'm focused on the plays that screwed the Pats and denver fans don't remember them because they won.

 

I honestly feel that the idea that the refs favor NE is a perception issue. which is more likely: 1) referees either consciously or unconsciously favor a team and make calls accordingly, or 2) selective memory and bias make us see favortism?

 

as i previously stated, bad calls are typically remembered from the losing team's perspective (last year's AFC championship game being an exception). the pats win a lot of games, meaning you're much more likely to remember times their opponents are screwed. the pats often win close games, and you're more liekly to focus on bad calls in close games. add in the fact that officiating is atrocious, causing us to question refs (and their partiality) more freely, and this leads to an environment where calls that favor NE are more commonly focused on.

 

also, many people don't like the pats and are looking for them to fall and will only remember that which makes the pats look bad. for example, this thread isn't the first time i've had someone say that just once they want to see the pats screwed by the refs just to have me say "did you see the denver game last year?"

 

All of this said, the story could be broken tomorrow that an NFL conspiracy to help the Patriots win has existed for the last 5 years and I wouldn't be 100% surprised. maybe I've heard it enough that it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility anymore. I'll definitely say that the 2001 team benefited from a lot of luck and the stars aligning perfectly.

 

knowing how much the NFL loves promoting Manning and the Colts, though, I would expect any such conspiracy to favor them. The nfl hasn't changed/enforced rules to favor the pats these past few years.

[Lori]

What is the exact game you both are referring to?

November 29th, 1998: The 'Fiasco at Foxboro'. Six seconds left in the game, Shawn Jefferson catches a pass on fourth down, doesn't get both feet down before falling out of bounds, but it doesn't matter anyway because he's short of the first down marker. Not even close. Turnover on downs, Bills win. Yay.

That is, until the refs congregate on the sideline right in front of the Buffalo bench and decide that not only was it a catch, it was a first down. (Remember, now, no instant replay that year.)

 

Andre Reed was close enough to hear the conference:

"Quinn Early and I were right there and he (one of the officials) said, 'Give it to him, just give it to him.' Crap like that is uncalled for. I don't know if it was the side judge or the line judge, but he didn't know what happened. He waited for the guy to come all the way over from Boston to make the call. That one took the cake. They looked at me like, 'Is he in, is he in?' What am I supposed to say, 'Oh no, he's not in.' Get your (stuff) together."

--Relentless II, pg. 129

 

Those of us watching the game while posting on the (original) Wall were equally incredulous -- in fact, that one play may have been the reason behind the first profanity filter -- but we figured we'd still be OK, because New England only had time for one more play. Bledsoe drops back, heaves a Hail Mary into the endzone, incomplete, Bills win... uh, not so fast. Flag on the play. Defensive pass interference. (Yeah, on a Hail Mary play!!) First-and-goal at the one, no time left on the clock.

(If you ever catch a replay of this game, not only is the call against Henry Jones very questionable, there's actually a legit OFFENSIVE interference call that could've been made amid all the jostling for the jump ball... which is why you never see PI called on one of those plays. Well, ALMOST never. .)

 

By now the Bills D was in shock; Bledsoe hit Ben Coates for the game-winning TD, and Wade Phillips -- in a move that still makes me proud -- took his team off the field before the extra-point try. (With no defense, Vinatieri ran it in for two to make the final 25-21.)

 

"I said they're going to throw it into the end zone, and we're going to get a pass interference. I wish I could call the stock market that well. I'll take the fine, I don't care what is it, that was the WORST."

The bill wound up being $50,000:

Wilson never paid the fine, and he railed against commissioner Paul Tagliabue in a scathing statement. "At 80, I do know I don't need pompous lectures from the commissioner and I feel the $50,000 is not only unwarranted, but punitive in nature," Wilson said. "The next time he may ask me to go sit in the corner."

--Relentless II, pg. 122

Bills beat the snot out of Cincy the next weekend, and gave the game ball to Ralph.

 

Thank that game for the return of replay -- Wilson had been a consistent 'no' vote, but changed his mind after the events in Foxhole. And you can also blame those calls for Buffalo having to go to Miami for the playoff game: with the win, the Bills would've finished a game in front of the Fish instead of losing a tiebreaker for the top wild-card slot.

[daquixers_is_back]

November 29th, 1998: The 'Fiasco at Foxboro'. Six seconds left in the game, Shawn Jefferson catches a pass on fourth down, doesn't get both feet down before falling out of bounds, but it doesn't matter anyway because he's short of the first down marker. Not even close. Turnover on downs, Bills win. Yay.

That is, until the refs congregate on the sideline right in front of the Buffalo bench and decide that not only was it a catch, it was a first down. (Remember, now, no instant replay that year.)

 

Andre Reed was close enough to hear the conference:

Those of us watching the game while posting on the (original) Wall were equally incredulous -- in fact, that one play may have been the reason behind the first profanity filter -- but we figured we'd still be OK, because New England only had time for one more play. Bledsoe drops back, heaves a Hail Mary into the endzone, incomplete, Bills win... uh, not so fast. Flag on the play. Defensive pass interference. (Yeah, on a Hail Mary play!!) First-and-goal at the one, no time left on the clock.

(If you ever catch a replay of this game, not only is the call against Henry Jones very questionable, there's actually a legit OFFENSIVE interference call that could've been made amid all the jostling for the jump ball... which is why you never see PI called on one of those plays. Well, ALMOST never.  .)

 

By now the Bills D was in shock; Bledsoe hit Ben Coates for the game-winning TD, and Wade Phillips -- in a move that still makes me proud -- took his team off the field before the extra-point try. (With no defense, Vinatieri ran it in for two to make the final 25-21.)

Bills beat the snot out of Cincy the next weekend, and gave the game ball to Ralph.

 

Thank that game for the return of replay -- Wilson had been a consistent 'no' vote, but changed his mind after the events in Foxhole. And you can also blame those calls for Buffalo having to go to Miami for the playoff game: with the win, the Bills would've finished a game in front of the Fish instead of losing a tiebreaker for the top wild-card slot.

822635[/snapback]

 

Now I remember this game ... but I only remember it because of Wade Phillips sending the team to the locker room and I believe Belichick had the Pats go for 2.

 

SMOKINF N JOKIN really needs to read that review from lori and then tell me refs dont !@#$ up games royaly

[Lori]

Now I remember this game ... but I only remember it because of Wade Phillips sending the team to the locker room and I believe Belichick had the Pats go for 2.

 

SMOKINF N JOKIN really needs to read that review from lori and then tell me refs dont !@#$ up games royaly

822645[/snapback]

Fredo (Petey Carroll) instead of Belichick, who was still in New Yawk with Parcells, but yup, he went for two after Wade took the Bills off the field. Adam V. jogged into the end zone with a big grin on his face, and I started looking for something heavy to throw through the television screen.

 

That was the same year Vinny Testaverde's helmet scored the winning touchdown against the Seahawks. (Said green-and-white helmet was the only part of VT's body to hit the goal line; the football never even got close.) That game ended up costing the 'Squawks a playoff berth, and coach Dennis Erickson his job.

I try not to whine about refs too often, because I think we 'fans' can go overboard on that... but there are times when it's absolutely, positively justified. Foxhole definitely qualifies on that count.

[smokinandjokin]

Now I remember this game ... but I only remember it because of Wade Phillips sending the team to the locker room and I believe Belichick had the Pats go for 2.

 

SMOKINF N JOKIN really needs to read that review from lori and then tell me refs dont !@#$ up games royaly

822645[/snapback]

 

I didn't need to read the review (but I did, nice recap Lori.) I remember the game ass. Ralph's follow-up letter to the league was one of the best things I've ever read. I'm sure however, since you hypothetically replayed the Monday night game and the Vikings won, you also went back and hypothetically replayed the rest of that 1998 season and had the Bills coasting to a Super Bowl title.

 

And I never said the refs are great- in fact, I have reiterated several times to you that they blow calls all the time, in every game. If you prefer to pretend that it only ever happens in games that New England plays, and that they ALWAYS get the upper hand with every call, then so be it. It's not easy to do this, because I truly HATE the Patriots. But if it makes you feel better to believe that New England is 74-26 with three SB's since 2001 because the refs sweat them, so be it. Likewise, we can pretend the Bills are 33-54 since 2001 because the refs hate us.

 

Patriot fans can cry all they want that Champ Bailey's fumble should have been a touchback, not out at the 1 yard line. People seem to forget the fact that Tom Brady THREW AN INT IN THE OTHER END ZONE THAT WAS RETURNED 100+ YARDS!!! The refs didn't cost them the game- Brady's horrible pass cost them the game!!!

[smokinandjokin]

Fredo (Petey Carroll) instead of Belichick, who was still in New Yawk with Parcells, but yup, he went for two after Wade took the Bills off the field. Adam V. jogged into the end zone with a big grin on his face, and I started looking for something heavy to throw through the television screen.

822693[/snapback]

 

If I remember correctly, that also had huge implications on the over/under. The way the game was being played, it seemed to be a sure under. I can't remember the exact situation, or what the line was, but when the refs stepped in, Pats scored, and it was still under by 1 or 2 points. The 2-point freebie either made the game go over, or it became a push. All I remember is the gambling community being up in arms about Wade pulling the team off the field.

 

That was the same year Vinny Testaverde's helmet scored the winning touchdown against the Seahawks. (Said green-and-white helmet was the only part of VT's body to hit the goal line; the football never even got close.) That game ended up costing the 'Squawks a playoff berth, and coach Dennis Erickson his job.

I try not to whine about refs too often, because I think we 'fans' can go overboard on that... but there are times when it's absolutely, positively justified. Foxhole definitely qualifies on that count.

822693[/snapback]

 

No doubt you are correct. Obviously we all recall the Pats game, and that Vinny TD was pathetic. But don't tell daquixers that VT was playing for the Jets- he thinks only the Patriots get the calls...

[BuffaloWings]

Now I remember this game ... but I only remember it because of Wade Phillips sending the team to the locker room and I believe Belichick had the Pats go for 2.

822645[/snapback]

This was the only time Wade did something I was quite proud of. Our team got shafted and everyone knew it...it was the best way he could protest, regardless of what the gamblers and everyone in Vegas thought.

 

I'd rather not discuss this game too much (my blood pressure usually skyrockets when thinking about it), but.....

 

I also thought the game was overwith on the 4th down. I remember that the sideline view of the play gave pretty much no doubt that Jefferson was OB, even though you couldn't actually see where his feet touched the ground. If the play was reviewed today and the on-field call was a catch & first down, there's no way it would have been reversed.

 

I think this game along with the playoff debacle in Miami led people to put replay back in the game. The Bills even got screwed during that game, though both times the penalties were judgement calls....albeit p*ss-poor judgement....and not reviewable.

[TheMadCap]

Speaking of which, did anyone see that lame excuse Mike Perererereria gave on total Access last night for the Wiggins Catch and the Jets-Browns game?

 

Note to Mike, if you are going to have a segment where you explain calls, sometimes you bite the bullet and say your guy made a mistake, apologize, say you will get it right next time and move on.

 

Watching this guy tap dance over why the Wigging call was upheld was disgusting. And not just because it was against NE. He basically said that the speed on the field didn't allow the ref to see the play the way the replay did. But that is why there is replay, right?

 

The Jets got screwed because in the opinion of Mike Pereerereeria, he doesn't want replay to run the game. What a fuggin toolbox.

 

Mike Pererereria is a joke....

[BuffaloWings]

Speaking of which, did anyone see that lame excuse Mike Perererereria gave on total Access last night for the Wiggins Catch and the Jets-Browns game?

 

Note to Mike, if you are going to have a segment where you explain calls, sometimes you bite the bullet and say your guy made a mistake, apologize, say you will get it right next time and move on.

 

Watching this guy tap dance over why the Wigging call was upheld was disgusting. And not just because it was against NE. He basically said that the speed on the field didn't allow the ref to see the play the way the replay did. But that is why there is replay, right?

 

The Jets got screwed because in the opinion of Mike Pereerereeria, he doesn't want replay to run the game. What a fuggin toolbox.

 

Mike Pererereria is a joke....

822843[/snapback]

What exactly was his explanation?

[Gordio]

Now I remember this game ... but I only remember it because of Wade Phillips sending the team to the locker room and I believe Belichick had the Pats go for 2.

 

SMOKINF N JOKIN really needs to read that review from lori and then tell me refs dont !@#$ up games royaly

822645[/snapback]

 

 

I dont know how any bills fan could forget this game. To be honest with you, besides Wide Right & Music City this is the one game that sticks in my craw most about being a bills fan. Absolute disgracefull display by the refs in this game. I still remmebr Pete Carrolls snide smile when Adam V ran it in for 2. Poetic justice came later that year as NE had to play without Bledsoe in the playoffs because I think of a broken finger & got hammered by Jacksonville in the first round. To this day, I despise P Carroll because of the tragedies in Foxboro that day.

[daquixers_is_back]

Speaking of which, did anyone see that lame excuse Mike Perererereria gave on total Access last night for the Wiggins Catch and the Jets-Browns game?

 

Note to Mike, if you are going to have a segment where you explain calls, sometimes you bite the bullet and say your guy made a mistake, apologize, say you will get it right next time and move on.

 

Watching this guy tap dance over why the Wigging call was upheld was disgusting. And not just because it was against NE. He basically said that the speed on the field didn't allow the ref to see the play the way the replay did. But that is why there is replay, right?

 

The Jets got screwed because in the opinion of Mike Pereerereeria, he doesn't want replay to run the game. What a fuggin toolbox.

 

Mike Pererereria is a joke....

822843[/snapback]

 

What exactly did he say? Also what was his explanation for the Jets call?