Dawgg Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Let's not bring intelligence into the discussion, as it's pretty likely you were the one who changed my tires or filled my tank the other day... Insults aside, you agree with my point -- that the West Coast offense is about THE worst offense to employ with Vick as QB. Often times when i see "last post by 'dawgg'", i am almost compelled to read the thread to see what special brand of retard you have brought to the table on that given day. Today is no different. 811092[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartshan-83 Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 and right there is why vick will never succeed in the WC offense. He's the same as culpepper. they run around and fling the ball upfield and hope its caught. neither one can read a defense. 811139[/snapback] Absolutley. I liked his quote about what it would be like to have Randy Moss or Chad Johnson. Maybe he could have Tomlinson and Shaun Alexander too. We could also throw in TO, Steve Smith and Torry Holt. Also, he should call the Colts and see if they are interested in swapping him and Manning...you know "just for a week." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 You're exactly right -- and it also coincides with the new coaching staff installing a West Coast offense. I'm not saying he's a top 5 QB, he's not even close. But you can win with Vick at QB, you just have to have the right system in place that's tailored to HIM not one tailored to Joe Montana and Steve Young. All he ever accomplish was a playoff win in Green Bay. He has regeressesd as a passer every year since. 810938[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 No way around it. You have to be able to think quick at qb. Vick is dumb. Not good for a qb. All he wants to do is run. For him to say he wants to pass is dilusional on his part. If you watch a game he is not patient. His second option is always to run. Doesnt like or cannot check down. Like all running qb's he is a flash in the pan. Like Kordell Stewart. Decent second stringer for a change of pace but only short term. Never going to win anything substantial with them. Give me someone with a brain like Young(Steve) or Montana any day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluv Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 You're exactly right -- and it also coincides with the new coaching staff installing a West Coast offense. I'm not saying he's a top 5 QB, he's not even close. But you can win with Vick at QB, you just have to have the right system in place that's tailored to HIM not one tailored to Joe Montana and Steve Young. 811186[/snapback] But that is the point - when ATL wins he is treated like a top 5 QB when he really is not. I'll give him credit how he does have an impact on the D and how his running threat at QB is no match in the league. He may make a few plays here or there; mostly with his feet. He makes ATL running game go because the Defnse worries more about gap control and containment with Vick at QB. Fine if you actually produce on the field but if not then it is just hype. With the way the ends rush to contain him in the pocket and the spy used on him, he should and does have big windows to pass in but he can't get it done. If he had the same running statistic and was an average passer who passed for 3000 yards at a 55% to 58% pass percentage with about 20 TDs he'd get more deserved respect because he and ATL would be unstoppable and they would average 25 to 30 points a game. But if your passing game and points per game are bottom in the league then you can't be considered an upper echelon QB. That is what irk's me is that he is over hyped and under criticized enough. I mean Cunningham took a lot of grief back in the early 90's. He didn't have any WR's whatsoever and his best target was a TE, Keith Jackson, just like Vick and Crumpler. But Vick isn't half the passer he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justnzane Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Let's not bring intelligence into the discussion, as it's pretty likely you were the one who changed my tires or filled my tank the other day... Insults aside, you agree with my point -- that the West Coast offense is about THE worst offense to employ with Vick as QB. 811179[/snapback] Dawgg, weren't you monitoring the halls of South Park elementary wednesday nite? demanding that we "respect your authoritay"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Well, I think that's a general problem in the sense that when a team wins, QBs get a disproportionate about of the credit. When they lose, they get a disproportionate amount of the blame. Maybe it's moreso with Vick, but that's partially because he's a superstar and has been since he was at VA Tech. Lately, he has been playing like anything BUT a superstar... but I disagree with the notion that Vick can't throw the ball. As he himself pointed out, he passed for nearly 3000 yards when Reeves was head coach. Take a look at his deep balls when he gets to throw them -- they are surprisingly accurate... I think an offensive coordinator who knows what he is doing can turn Vick into a pretty good (not great) passer. But that is the point - when ATL wins he is treated like a top 5 QB when he really is not. I'll give him credit how he does have an impact on the D and how his running threat at QB is no match in the league. He may make a few plays here or there; mostly with his feet. He makes ATL running game go because the Defnse worries more about gap control and containment with Vick at QB. Fine if you actually produce on the field but if not then it is just hype. With the way the ends rush to contain him in the pocket and the spy used on him, he should and does have big windows to pass in but he can't get it done. If he had the same running statistic and was an average passer who passed for 3000 yards at a 55% to 58% pass percentage with about 20 TDs he'd get more deserved respect because he and ATL would be unstoppable and they would average 25 to 30 points a game. But if your passing game and points per game are bottom in the league then you can't be considered an upper echelon QB. That is what irk's me is that he is over hyped and under criticized enough. I mean Cunningham took a lot of grief back in the early 90's. He didn't have any WR's whatsoever and his best target was a TE, Keith Jackson, just like Vick and Crumpler. But Vick isn't half the passer he was. 811210[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Dawgg, weren't you monitoring the halls of South Park elementary wednesday nite? demanding that we "respect your authoritay"? 811216[/snapback] And to Raimus on the whole Schaub thing, theres some financial reasons for keeping Matt on the bench - he's a UFA after this season. I wouldn't be surprised to see them sign Shaub to a lower contract then he would have had if he started this year, then ending the Vick experience. I also somewhat partially agree with Dawgg - QBs like Vick, Culpepper, and Young are best in one-read offenses that stretch the field and let them run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluv Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Well, I think that's a general problem in the sense that when a team wins, QBs get a disproportionate about of the credit. When they lose, they get a disproportionate amount of the blame. Maybe it's moreso with Vick, but that's partially because he's a superstar and has been since he was at VA Tech. Lately, he has been playing like anything BUT a superstar... but I disagree with the notion that Vick can't throw the ball. As he himself pointed out, he passed for nearly 3000 yards when Reeves was head coach. Take a look at his deep balls when he gets to throw them -- they are surprisingly accurate... I think an offensive coordinator who knows what he is doing can turn Vick into a pretty good (not great) passer. 811218[/snapback] Like I said earlier: "I'm not saying that he won't or he can't; I'm saying that he don't and he a'int!" Maybe he is in the wrong system. Maybe he will turn it around. Nobody has question the strength of his arm. I mean Kordell could throw the rock! But when given time to thorw or put in a situation when he has to pass to win a game he hasn't came through. Until he consistently put together good passing games against good teams, he is what he is. Now I don't want to see him have a 300 yard game against the Texans and then watch everbody go see what he can do. Like his passes so go his games: he has to hit at least 3 out of 5 to be considered consistent. 3 out of 16 is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trolls_r_us Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Dan Reeves was always a fantastic coach but he suffered from Marty-itis: the stigma that an old-school "non sexy" coach gets when his teams don't win superbowls I always liked Reeves.... I also found it interesting at the time that Vick was so mad that the Falcons got rid of him... Vick has a point.. They got rid of a real head coach and replaced him with a kid who has a bad temper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills4bowl21 Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 hey vick is the one who accepted the 110 million dollar contract a year or 2 ago--who could blame him.??....but he could have held out and got traded to a team...is he implying that it all comes down to that he wants a stud receiver ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 A player is only as good as the system he is in, ESPECIALLY a quarterback. And Vick is in the wrong system. Atlanta needs to fire Greg Knapp and fire him FAST. They are trying to employ the West Coast offense with one of the most athletically gifted quarterbacks in the league. Vick has a point. They rarely allow him to throw the ball 811080[/snapback] They never let him throw the ball? Thirty-five attempt per game....and doesn't include the times he's gone back and his normal first decision and ran with it. Yeah, it's the coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 A player is only as good as the system he is in, ESPECIALLY a quarterback. 811080[/snapback] I beg to differ. You have it backwards A system is only as good as the players in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Check your stats, my friend. Vick is 29th in the NFL in pass attempts among active QBs. Works out to 21 per game. Atlanta, AS A TEAM is at the bottom of the NFL in total pass attempts. They never let him throw the ball? Thirty-five attempt per game....811528[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 We can argue on that until the cows come home but the bottom line is that systems need to be tailored to maximize the strength of the roster. The West Coast offense is NOT the offense to be installing with Mike Vick as QB. I beg to differ. You have it backwards A system is only as good as the players in it. 811532[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risin Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Actually no. PP had 28 his first 6 games with Atlanta. 810993[/snapback] Wrong. Vick got hurt in preseason Price's first year. Broke his leg against the Ravens. Doug Johnson was his QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie2times Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 I can't believe anybody would rather have Losman over Vick right now. I support JP, but he's still an unknown. What evidence does anybody have that he is capable of doing what Vick can do/has done? He's single handedly won games with Atlanta including the one in Buffalo last year. He's gone to the NFC Championship game. No matter how bad he is at reading defenses he's still a very difficult player to defend. As Dawgg pointed out he's in a bad system, if you opened it up it would be to his benefit. Who cares if he can only thrive in the way Daunte could in Minnesota. Daunte had huge numbers a few of those years, they just couldn’t run the ball or play defense. To say you would rather have Vick over JP is not an insult to JP at this point in his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie2times Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Some additional stats to consider with Vick. Yards per attempt is one of the most important statistics a QB has. Excluding rushing yards Vick ranks near the bottom of the league. When you include the rushing stats of all the QB's he ranked 7th his Rookie year with Reeves, 9th in Moras first year, 25th in 05, and 17th in 06. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 We can argue on that until the cows come home but the bottom line is that systems need to be tailored to maximize the strength of the roster 811557[/snapback] argue what? you just reinforced my point. A system is only as good as the players in it. Doesn't matter how fiendishly clever your coordinator is. If you don't have players suited to that system (or players that just plain suck), the system won't work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Of course, which is why you employ a system that fits your roster. Make no mistake Vick was there before the West Coast offense was installed. If they were hell bent on using the WCO, then they should have traded him (a pretty stupid idea, btw). If they were hell bent on having a "successful" offense, then you would NOT employ the WCO with Vick as your QB. argue what? you just reinforced my point. A system is only as good as the players in it. Doesn't matter how fiendishly clever your coordinator is. If you don't have players suited to that system (or players that just plain suck), the system won't work 811602[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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