Kelly the Dog Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 i'm not advocating that we should have drafted leinart, but everything you say here -- and i mean everything -- could have been applied to tom brady in the years 2000-02. 807738[/snapback] I think Brady has a much stronger arm than Leinart. Brady can throw darts 30-40 yards, he just can't throw it 65-70 yards like some guys. I put Brady in the middle of the pack and maybe even higher when it comes to arm strength, and I think a lot of the criticisms of him were unfounded based on two things: 1] early on, he almost always threw short (so people wrongly accused him of not having the strength or ability to go deep) and 2] he wasn't very accurate throwing deep his first couple years. His last few he has become very accurate, but the arm strength is the same. Brady is also MUCH quicker and agile than Leinart, and that has nothing to do with foot speed. His body moves pretty quick avoiding rushers. Almost everything leinart does is slow, partly because of his big body.
Peter Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 He hasn't come close to showing he can "make all the throws". In fact, he's shown that he can't. What he can do, and what he can do great, is what he did last night. And thCards, and anyone can win a certain amount of games with him. He will definitely put up stats. With those receivers he will throw some touchdowns. He's extremely good at certain things that make or break NFL quarterbacks. But he can't make the throws when he needs to. He can't throw a deep ball except a rainbow. He cannot throw a deep out with tight coverage. His mechanics are sound but slow. He is going to get murderded by blitzing because he won't be able to avoid it. he's already good at stepping up into the pocket, but his body is going to take a beating. And he will get his receivers killed as he did several times last night. He shows zip on 10 yarders. That is not what critics mean when they say he has no arm. 807736[/snapback] Did you see him destory OU in the Orange Bowl a couple of years ago? Did you see him complete a fourth and long against the cover two defense against ND last year to keep the game winning drive alive? The guy can play the QB position.
Kelly the Dog Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 Did you see him destory OU in the Orange Bowl a couple of years ago? Did you see him complete a fourth and long against the cover two defense against ND last year to keep the game winning drive alive? The guy can play the QB position. 807749[/snapback] I watched him a ton. I live in LA and am a huge Pac 10 fan. He's a great quarterback. He does a couple things fabulous. This is exactly how I expected him to play because he's already ready to play in the NFL. But the things that he cannot do cannot be learned by experience.
Peter Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 I watched him a ton. I live in LA and am a huge Pac 10 fan. He's a great quarterback. he does a couple things fabulous. But the things that he cannot do cannot be learned by experience. 807753[/snapback] I am not asking this to be sarcastic. I am really interested in your opinion on this (because I respect it -- although we may disagree at times). What is it that he cannot do?
smokinandjokin Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 He hasn't come close to showing he can "make all the throws". In fact, he's shown that he can't. What he can do, and what he can do great, is what he did last night. And thCards, and anyone can win a certain amount of games with him. He will definitely put up stats. With those receivers he will throw some touchdowns. He's extremely good at certain things that make or break NFL quarterbacks. But he can't make the throws when he needs to. He can't throw a deep ball except a rainbow. He cannot throw a deep out with tight coverage. His mechanics are sound but slow. He is going to get murderded by blitzing because he won't be able to avoid it. he's already good at stepping up into the pocket, but his body is going to take a beating. And he will get his receivers killed as he did several times last night. He shows zip on 10 yarders. That is not what critics mean when they say he has no arm. 807736[/snapback] I have seen him many, many times in person and on television throw great deep balls. He didn't lob rainbows any more or any less than other QBs. I have seen him, with my own eyes, throwing 20-yard outs on the money. Obviously, his body of work is against college competition. Time will tell how he does in the pros, but my hunch is that he'll be fine. A few got away from him up high last night, where he could've done some damage to the receivers. It's hard to say if that will be a problem for him in the future or not. He did have the luxury of throwing up high to Mike Williams and Jarrett at USC. I assume Boldin and Fitzgerald will share their feelings about that if it becomes a habit in the NFL. He will never be mobile, but he can move OK. Brady has a piano on his back when he runs, but he's very slippery in the pocket. That's a feel that only a few guys have, and Leinart has at least shown that he understands the concept of sliding in the pocket. A point which helps your argument, which could be telling, is that Tennesee picked 3rd and chose Vince, even though Leinart's former USC coordinator Norm Chow is running the Titans' offense. I heard the Tennessee's owner really wanted Young, but that struck me as strange. You'd think Chow would really lobby for Leinart if he thought he was a 10-year franchise guy.
Peter Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 A point which helps your argument, which could be telling, is that Tennesee picked 3rd and chose Vince, even though Leinart's former USC coordinator Norm Chow is running the Titans' offense. I heard the Tennessee's owner really wanted Young, but that struck me as strange. You'd think Chow would really lobby for Leinart if he thought he was a 10-year franchise guy. 807756[/snapback] For what it is worth, the rumor is that Chow and Fischer wanted to pick Leinart. The Titans owner and GM wanted Young.
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 i'm not advocating that we should have drafted leinart, but everything you say here -- and i mean everything -- could have been applied to tom brady in the years 2000-02. 807738[/snapback] If the Bills could have drafted Leinart in the 6th round, I would have no problem taking him. However, drafting a QB in the first round after giving up another 1st round QB after 3 years and less than a fullseason worth of starts is foolish, IMO. Honestly (and the last thing I wanna say about this), Leinart is a much more polished QB than JP at this point. Leinart had more starts against top flight competition than JP entering the league. People say JP has had 3 years to prove himself. He also has had 2 offensive coordinators with entirely different systems, a year interrupted by a broken leg, average to below average o-line (to be kind), and a year of flip flopping. You can say these are excuses but it is the truth. Any QB's progress would have been stunted by this. Personally, I think Leinart will be a good QB. He has the swagger and poise of a veteran. However, he was at Tulane instead of USC, I have doubts if he could have made himself a first round QB. He needs talent around him and found a good situation in Arizona. Bottomline, if Losman has shown nothing we should get rid of him. But the guy has and shown the desire to be great. He's no ho-hum like RJ and loves this town. Let's give him a real shot. Unfortunately (and as Bills fans we have had to deal with this for the last decade), we need patience. It will be a rollercoaster. Simply we have no idea what the ceiling is for Losman. Unfortunately, we don't no what the basement is either. Ask yourself as Bills fan how it would feel to see Losman playing for the Packers and becoming an elite QB because the decision makers had the attention span as fans?
Kelly the Dog Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 I am not asking this to be sarcastic. I am really interested in your opinion on this (because I respect it -- although we may disagree at times). What is it that he cannot do? 807754[/snapback] He cannot get the ball deep unless guys are wide open. He throws the deep ball with too much loft because he cannot bull it through the air and wind, and he will end up with a lot of passes like the one Ko Simpson intercepted on Sunday. He cannot throw a deep out. He could throw that pass in college because the college CBs aren't fast enough to close on it. In the pros they can. he should have had a couple passes picked off by guys jumping the ball like the one Vasher slipped on. That was an INT. He cannot move quickly enough with guys right on him, and his body is going to take a beating. He's tough, there's no doubt, but I really see him getting killed. He is going to get his receivers killed by lofting the ball. It happened about 5 times yesterday. When a CB is right on a reciever more than 15 yards downfield he is going to have a very tough time getting it to him because it gets there a split second slower than most quarterbacks with decent arm strength. he can get away with that 0-15 or so yards but any further than that the DBs again close too fast. That happened a few times last night, too. People cannot seem to think of two things at the same time here, or in a lot of other places. I am not saying he sucks. He's actually great, already. And he will win some games and he will put up pretty good and sometimes very good numbers. But he's a tease. He's Chad Pennington. Leinart has many of the same problems, but he's a little slower IMO. And that doesn't mean he cannot move at all because he throws very well on the run, and again, he's very smart and very polished and an excellent player. Some smart as well as stupid fans think you can win it all in this league with Chad Pennington. I frankly don't, except in the one in a 100 fluke years like the Ravens.
ACor58 Posted October 17, 2006 Author Posted October 17, 2006 If the Bills could have drafted Leinart in the 6th round, I would have no problem taking him. However, drafting a QB in the first round after giving up another 1st round QB after 3 years and less than a fullseason worth of starts is foolish, IMO. 807767[/snapback] I agree that we had more glaring needs other than QB and that the staff had not had a chance to fully evaluate Losman yet, and that weighed heavily in their decision. But you have to remember what we gave up in draft picks to acquire JP are a sunk cost and shouldn't considered when passing on a QB like Leinart or Cutler. (It's like having the chance to buy a Ferrari for the price of a Mustang, but saying no because you already spent your money 2 years ago on a Honda Fit.)
Kelly the Dog Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 I have seen him many, many times in person and on television throw great deep balls. He didn't lob rainbows any more or any less than other QBs. I have seen him, with my own eyes, throwing 20-yard outs on the money. Obviously, his body of work is against college competition. Time will tell how he does in the pros, but my hunch is that he'll be fine. A few got away from him up high last night, where he could've done some damage to the receivers. It's hard to say if that will be a problem for him in the future or not. He did have the luxury of throwing up high to Mike Williams and Jarrett at USC. I assume Boldin and Fitzgerald will share their feelings about that if it becomes a habit in the NFL. He will never be mobile, but he can move OK. Brady has a piano on his back when he runs, but he's very slippery in the pocket. That's a feel that only a few guys have, and Leinart has at least shown that he understands the concept of sliding in the pocket. A point which helps your argument, which could be telling, is that Tennesee picked 3rd and chose Vince, even though Leinart's former USC coordinator Norm Chow is running the Titans' offense. I heard the Tennessee's owner really wanted Young, but that struck me as strange. You'd think Chow would really lobby for Leinart if he thought he was a 10-year franchise guy. 807756[/snapback] That's a good post. And even though I feel strongly about this, it's all just opinion. I could easily be wrong. He MAY be able to get away with more than I expect him to be able to get away with because he's really a terrific quarterback, and there are ways guys who are great in all sports can mask their deficiencies. I am predicting that his shortcomings will be his demise but it's surely not written in stone. There are guys that play ten years and they're hurt and their arm isn't what it used to be and they can rely enough on their wiles to succeed. It's possible that Leinart's smarts and his natural quarterback abilities, of which he has many, can overcome his physical limitations. This is exactly what I predicted would happen though, although I guess I didnt expect it game one series one. But he's the most polished QB to enter the NFL in a long, long time. But at halftime, I told the guy I was watching the game with that this is a typical leinart game and the Bears will probably win 21-20. He can do what he did last night great. He can lead drives great. I just don't think he can get it done consistently.
JDG Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 Stats for the week: J. Losman 21/34 207 2 1 OK, let's see you say he had a bad game. He had an average game at worst, in a game in which his defense gave up 500 yards to a PUTRID offense. 807556[/snapback] I don't think that stats can prove that you are a good QB. Just look at Damon Huard's stats before this week for an example of that. There are some certainly minimum statistical benchmarks, like completing 50% of your passes, that can prove that a QB is *not good* - but I don't think that stats prove a good QB all on their own. In this case, consider the following stat: 17 Offensive Points. Three of which came on a scintillating -12 yard drive. I know that Matt Leinart benefited from some turnovers yesterday - but at least he punched the ball in the endzone, and he was also a rookie playing the best defense in football! You could just see that Leinart's decision-making was at least one level above Losman's. Leinart simply did a better job of executing the offense and sustaining drives against a better defense. JDG
JDG Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 That's mighty big of you considering that you're never willing to admit he has had good games. 807729[/snapback] Which game was that? I've said that he had a B+ game against Minnesota, and against Houston last year. I've also said that he played good in relief against KC, and was just barely good enough to win against Miami this year. Where are all these "good games" that I am missing??????? JDG
JDG Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 Some smart as well as stupid fans think you can win it all in this league with Chad Pennington. I frankly don't, except in the one in a 100 fluke years like the Ravens. 807770[/snapback] Yep, some QB who has made the playoffs in both of his healthy years so far - despite being in the same division as a dynasty, beat Peyton Manning in the playoffs 41-0, and basically won road playoff games in San Diego and Pittsburgh clearly doesn't have what it takes. I'm sure that Arizona fans are terrified that Leinart is going to be just such a "tease." JDG
dave mcbride Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 He cannot get the ball deep unless guys are wide open. He throws the deep ball with too much loft because he cannot bull it through the air and wind, and he will end up with a lot of passes like the one Ko Simpson intercepted on Sunday. He cannot throw a deep out. He could throw that pass in college because the college CBs aren't fast enough to close on it. In the pros they can. he should have had a couple passes picked off by guys jumping the ball like the one Vasher slipped on. That was an INT. He cannot move quickly enough with guys right on him, and his body is going to take a beating. He's tough, there's no doubt, but I really see him getting killed. He is going to get his receivers killed by lofting the ball. It happened about 5 times yesterday. When a CB is right on a reciever more than 15 yards downfield he is going to have a very tough time getting it to him because it gets there a split second slower than most quarterbacks with decent arm strength. he can get away with that 0-15 or so yards but any further than that the DBs again close too fast. That happened a few times last night, too. People cannot seem to think of two things at the same time here, or in a lot of other places. I am not saying he sucks. He's actually great, already. And he will win some games and he will put up pretty good and sometimes very good numbers. But he's a tease. He's Chad Pennington. Leinart has many of the same problems, but he's a little slower IMO. And that doesn't mean he cannot move at all because he throws very well on the run, and again, he's very smart and very polished and an excellent player. Some smart as well as stupid fans think you can win it all in this league with Chad Pennington. I frankly don't, except in the one in a 100 fluke years like the Ravens. 807770[/snapback] re pennington, recall that the jets would have made it to the championship game in 04 if doug brien doesn't miss a couple of relative chip shots. that championship game would have matched the jets up against the pats, and the pats struggled against the jets that year, beating them by 13-7 late in the season in a close game. so i wouldn't necessarily call him a tease ...
smokinandjokin Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 even though I feel strongly about this, it's all just opinion. I could easily be wrong. 807783[/snapback] You and me both! It's true, only time will tell. Leinart is an interesting paradox because like you mentioned, he comes in with polish and the mental ability after having played three years in a pro offense at USC, but also has a more limited athletic arsenal than many other less-polished QB's. It's almost a case study of brain vs. braun. It will be interesting to watch and compare Leinart and Cutler down the road. They will be linked together for their careers because of their draft placement. Will Leinart's savvy and big-game experience help him excel, or will a QB who played on a college loser but has all the tools end up as the better pick? It will be fun to watch. A HUGE difference for Leinart will be getting used to playing without Reggie Bush. You can see it this year if you watch USC's offense. For the past three years, they had a guy on their team who could line up anywhere, and he averaged 8 yards PER TOUCH! Hand it to him, it's 2nd and 2. No problem. Leinart, like USC's offensive coordinator, will find himself in many situations that have been non-existent for the last three years.
Kelly the Dog Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 Yep, some QB who has made the playoffs in both of his healthy years so far - despite being in the same division as a dynasty, beat Peyton Manning in the playoffs 41-0, and basically won road playoff games in San Diego and Pittsburgh clearly doesn't have what it takes. I'm sure that Arizona fans are terrified that Leinart is going to be just such a "tease." JDG 807813[/snapback] Hence the word "tease". One of the reasons Pennington is a tease is because he gets clobbered. He gets clobbered because he is slow. As opposed to a guy like Brady who knows how to avoid being hit and doesn't get hurt a lot. There are a lot of players that have limitations to their game, which makes them a tease. One of the greatest teases in the game is Drew. You think you can win with him but you cannot. That's why we got rid of him. There are different ways you can be a tease, and just because you are a tease doesn't mean you lack talent or cannot win games or look great at times.
dave mcbride Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 Hence the word "tease". One of the reasons Pennington is a tease is because he gets clobbered. He gets clobbered because he is slow. As opposed to a guy like Brady who knows how to avoid being hit and doesn't get hurt a lot. There are a lot of players that have limitations to their game, which makes them a tease. One of the greatest teases in the game is Drew. You think you can win with him but you cannot. That's why we got rid of him. There are different ways you can be a tease, and just because you are a tease doesn't mean you lack talent or cannot win games or look great at times. 807830[/snapback] i repeat - how is he a tease when judging his last full season (2004)? the jets should have beat a 15-1 team on the road and made it to the championship game.
Kelly the Dog Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 re pennington, recall that the jets would have made it to the championship game in 04 if doug brien doesn't miss a couple of relative chip shots. that championship game would have matched the jets up against the pats, and the pats struggled against the jets that year, beating them by 13-7 late in the season in a close game. so i wouldn't necessarily call him a tease ... 807815[/snapback] Hence the word, "tease".
Kelly the Dog Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 i repeat - how is he a tease when judging his last full season (2004)? the jets should have beat a 15-1 team on the road and made it to the championship game. 807833[/snapback] Because they lost?
MRW Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 I know that Matt Leinart benefited from some turnovers yesterday - but at least he punched the ball in the endzone, and he was also a rookie playing the best defense in football! You could just see that Leinart's decision-making was at least one level above Losman's. Leinart simply did a better job of executing the offense and sustaining drives against a better defense. JDG 807789[/snapback] We could not ask for a better example of your double standard. Leinart led touchdown drives of 77 and 25 yards, while Losman took the team 54 and 74 yards. Leinart also had a performance from his defense (or the Bears' offense, take your pick) that got 6 turnovers. He got the ball starting inside the Chicago 35 4 times - results: 1 TD, 2 FGs, 1 missed FG. Still want to say "at least he punched the ball in the endzone"? Losman did have a horrific first half, but he bounced back and played decently in the second half. Unfortunately that was not enough to overcome the hole the team was in due to his initial poor play and the overall terrible play of the defense. Particularly late in the game, the offense was starting to move the ball pretty well. The usual miscues, missed blocks, and yes, some mistakes by Losman, cost them at the end. If they'd been able to adapt to the Lions' D earlier they might have been able to avoid it. I know you claim you're taking an objective look at the QB, but if you really believe that then I think you're fooling yourself.
Recommended Posts