We MUST have Speed at DT

[Mikie2times]

We heard Jauron say all off-season how we will stop the run with speed and penetration. Obviously we need some speed at DT for this system, but what’s more important, speed or stopping the run? By excluding DT's that aren't quick were really limiting ourselves to who we can go after. This is already a system known for being soft in the interior. We need to at least be open to signing a wide body that can sure up the middle. I'm not talking about Ryan Pickett, who we did target last season. I'm talking about a true run stopping DT. The Colts were willing to go after Simon despite being in the same system. It hasn't worked out great for them, but that could be just as much on Simon then Simon not fitting the system. DT's are hard enough to come buy and if we only target smaller penetrating DT's it will be a long time before we sure up the run defense.

[MDH]

Corey Simon weighs in at roughly 300lbs. which is what most of our DTs weigh in at as well. It's really not about size, it's about production. You can have smaller guys who can do the job and you can have bigger guys that can't.

[Pete]

Corey Simon has polyarthritis and will never play again in the NFL. The Colts are fighting not to pay him. So sad for an Corey- hes much too young to get arthritis

[MartyBall4Buffalo]

Corey Simon was never a "run stoppng" dt. He was known as a penetrating pass rushing dt. his 32 sacks in 5 years in philly will attest to that. That's the corey simon the colts thought they were getting. An Interior force. It turns out simon is the lazy choad eagles fans complained about him being in his final year in philly.

 

 

For any defensive system you have to have patience. Jauron seems like a pretty sharp mind I highly doubt hes happy being stuck with the dt's we currently have or the dline in general. Give it time and another draft or 2 and hopefully we'll be putting out a defense similar to the bears who went thru a lot of the issues we're currently going thru when first adjusting to the cover 2 scheme. Ian Scott/Tommie Harris/Tank Johnson aren't big run stoppers either they seem do just fine.

[Mikie2times]

The point wasn't to debate about Simon as a run stuffer. Regardless if he is or is not (I assumed perhaps wrongly that he is) Jauron has continued to say we like fast/quick DT's. That is the polar opposite of what most good run stuffing teams seems to have at least one of. I'm saying that only so many Tommie Harris or Sapp like DT's exist in this league. That our defense philosophy should not completely restrict us from certain players. Players like Ngata or Adams, or whoever is better then who we have.

 

From this post I imagine my biggest argument will be about Adams, so before that comes just imagine he did want to play for Buffalo. Regardless if it’s true or not, Jauron stated he wasn’t a good “Fit” for our system.

[Mikie2times]

Corey Simon weighs in at roughly 300lbs. which is what most of our DTs weigh in at as well.  It's really not about size, it's about production.  You can have smaller guys who can do the job and you can have bigger guys that can't.

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And you have some bigger guys that can. Should we not consider them because they don't fit in with the cover 2. I like systems, I just don't like being married to them. Dick proposed to the cover 2 a long time ago.

[Buftex]

Corey Simon was never a "run It turns out simon is the lazy choad eagles fans complained about him being in his final year in philly.  

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Some of that "lazyness" might be the result of his severe arthritis condition...guys career is over...

[syhuang]

The tampa 2 defense has lighter quicker DT's in the 300 lb range. Please refer to my old post which lists the DT size of teams using Tampa 2.

[Mikie2times]

The tampa 2 defense has lighter quicker DT's in the 300 lb range. Please refer to my old post which lists the DT size of teams using Tampa 2.

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Again my point. How can we be in any position to get this specific at DT right now? If a guy dominates the line of scrimmage, and is a little on the heavy side how can we say oh well he doesn't have a great first step. It's stupid to be so married to a system that it restricts yourself from getting good players in a scarce position, at a critical need.

[bluv]

Again my point. How can we be in any position to get this specific at DT right now? If a guy dominates the line of scrimmage, and is a little on the heavy side how can we say oh well he doesn't have a great first step. It's stupid to be so married to a system that it restricts yourself from getting good players in a scarce position, at a critical need.

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I'll agree to an extent as you can always use a run plugging 4-3 DT. It's not like having to find a 3-4 nosetackle or DE's or OLB that can only fit in a 3-4 or 4-3 but not both. I know I will get burnt for saying this; even though Big Sam had his issues, he had a quick first step for big man. For the money he was being paid I would have kept him and not release him just because he didn't fit into this particular quick penetrating scheme. To the very least he could be brought in as part of the DL rotation; especially on running situations and goal line as currently we don't have a DT that fits such roles. I know some will totally disagree but I know they would much rather see Big Sam lined up over the nose than Tim Anderson as he is bigger and has a quicker first step!

[syhuang]

Again my point. How can we be in any position to get this specific at DT right now? If a guy dominates the line of scrimmage, and is a little on the heavy side how can we say oh well he doesn't have a great first step. It's stupid to be so married to a system that it restricts yourself from getting good players in a scarce position, at a critical need.

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The point is to get the right players for your system.

 

What I was trying to say is that a light-weight DT is not a problem for Tampa 2. I don't think Marv, Jauron and other coaches use a restrict rule on DT's weight and neglect any DT weights more than certain pounds. The DTs fit Tampa 2 require speed and penetration. As long as a DT has speed and can penetrate, he fits Tampa 2 no matter how heavy he is.

[Pyrite Gal]

Again my point. How can we be in any position to get this specific at DT right now? If a guy dominates the line of scrimmage, and is a little on the heavy side how can we say oh well he doesn't have a great first step. It's stupid to be so married to a system that it restricts yourself from getting good players in a scarce position, at a critical need.

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My understanding was that the Bills were seriously considering keeping Adams despite his size not being demographicallt the prototype for a Cover or Tampa 2, but they decided not to do this not because of some doctrinaire commitment to a particular type of player, but because Adams had proven hard to get him to play cooperatively in any style which required him not to play the game he wanted to play.

 

If anything the rap on Adams which seems legit from what I saw of his time as a Nill was that he actually refused to stay at home and use his large bulk to stop the run because he much prefered to use his incredibly fast dfirst step to penetrate the OL.

 

This apparently was shown in him refusing to alter his contract in any way to lower his csp hit and the Bills cut him. Actually given his age, i think this was a good decision.

 

I see no real objective evidence that the Bills braintrust is so doctrinaire that they would reject a player who can play the game for them merely cause he is a big boy..

[Mikie2times]

The point is to get the right players for your system.

 

What I was trying to say is that a light-weight DT is not a problem for Tampa 2. I don't think Marv, Jauron and other coaches use a restrict rule on DT's weight and neglect any DT weights more than certain pounds.  The DTs fit Tampa 2 require speed and penetration. As long as a DT has speed and can penetrate, he fits Tampa 2 no matter how heavy he is.

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I know that’s the point. I also know they won't restrict just based on a players weight. But by your own definition, which is in line with Cover 2 coaches, a player like Pat Williams wouldn't be a good fit. That's just crap, especially in running situations. Perhaps our biggest need this past draft was DT, that is before we switched to this defense. Ngata was on the board but clearly didn't fit this system. Regardless of how he turns out I hate the fact that we wouldn't even consider him at such a critical need.

[Mikie2times]

My understanding was that the Bills were seriously considering keeping Adams despite his size not being demographicallt the prototype for a Cover or Tampa 2, but they decided not to do this not because of some doctrinaire commitment to a particular type of player, but because Adams had proven hard to get him to play cooperatively in any style which required him not to play the game he wanted to play.

 

If anything the rap on Adams which seems legit from what I saw of his time as a Nill was that he actually refused to stay at home and use his large bulk to stop the run because he much prefered to use his incredibly fast dfirst step to penetrate the OL.

 

This apparently was shown in him refusing to alter his contract in any way to lower his csp hit and the Bills cut him.  Actually given his age, i think this was a good decision.

 

I see no real objective evidence that the Bills braintrust is so doctrinaire that they would reject a player who can play the game for them merely cause he is a big boy..

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Adams would have fit just fine in this system. He was lightning off the snap when he wanted to be. I also think he was let go more for attitude, age, and contract. It's just not about being big though, it's the type of DT. The type that isn't going to jump off the line, or have a high motor, but he will demand two defenders and make it hell running inside. Since just about everybody else is looking for this guy, and since Buffalo isn't. He's not just going to fall into our lap. Those are the guys that shut down running games, ala P. Williams.

[Dibs]

Again my point. How can we be in any position to get this specific at DT right now? If a guy dominates the line of scrimmage, and is a little on the heavy side how can we say oh well he doesn't have a great first step. It's stupid to be so married to a system that it restricts yourself from getting good players in a scarce position, at a critical need.

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Um....who is out there in FA at the moment who can dominate the line of scrimmage?

I'm not seeing a problem here. Had we gotten N'gata & he broke his foot, we'd be in the same situation.....we'd be a man down at DT.

[Mikie2times]

Um....who is out there in FA at the moment who can dominate the line of scrimmage? 

I'm not seeing a problem here.  Had we gotten N'gata & he broke his foot, we'd be in the same situation.....we'd be a man down at DT.

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Well the past influences now in terms of drafting and Free Agency. That said I’m more worried about the future. I didn’t expect a ton from the Bills this year, but I do expect them to compete next year. Jauron has said several times what his philosophy is. We also let Adams go, signed Tripplett and didn’t give a thought to Ngata. My opinion is based off Jauron saying he's going to do something and doing it.

[Dibs]

Well the past influences now in terms of drafting and Free Agency.  That said I’m more worried about the future. I didn’t expect a ton from the Bills this year, but I do expect them to compete next year. Jauron has said several times what his philosophy is. We also let Adams go, signed Tripplett and didn’t give a thought to Ngata. My opinion is based off Jauron saying he's going to do something and doing it.

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Maybe I'm dumb but I'm really not following your point....perhaps you can spell it out for me.

Adams is irratic, old & probably past it.....Cincy is 27th in yards/game(144) & 26th in yards/carry(4.6).

Tripplett was widely considered one of the best DTs in the FA pool....the best was Rocky Bernard who tips the scales at 293lbs.

Ngata was far less of a sure thing than Whitner(plus we needed a good SS) & McCargo(who fits better) was obtained.

What is the problem?

[Lori]

Adams would have fit just fine in this system. He was lightning off the snap when he wanted to be. I also think he was let go more for attitude, age, and contract.  It's just not about being big though, it's the type of DT. The type that isn't going to jump off the line, or have a high motor, but he will demand two defenders and make it hell running inside. Since just about everybody else is looking for this guy, and since Buffalo isn't. He's not just going to fall into our lap. Those are the guys that shut down running games, ala P. Williams.

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I liked Adams, but he was never a run-stuffer. Never wanted to be. WITH Adams, the Bills ranked #31 in total rushing yardage allowed last year, #29 in yards-per-carry.

 

Two years ago, one of the local beat reporters gave me an interesting remark about Adams' attitude. According to an assistant coach for one of Adams' previous teams, Big Sam was THE most disruptive locker-room influence he'd ever seen. I miss watching him jump the snap every now and then to flatten a shocked QB, but he's probably not a guy you'd want around for the type of rebuilding project the Bills are implementing. And as was previously mentioned, he doesn't seem to be having much of an impact in Bengal-land, where their run-D stats are actually worse than last season.

 

P. Williams, on the other hand... yeah, we could use Pat right now. Did you see him blow up Saipaia to cause Kitna's fumble last week?

[Mikie2times]

Maybe I'm dumb but I'm really not following your point....perhaps you can spell it out for me.

Adams is irratic, old & probably past it.....Cincy is 27th in yards/game(144) & 26th in yards/carry(4.6).

Tripplett was widely considered one of the best DTs in the FA pool....the best was Rocky Bernard who tips the scales at 293lbs.

Ngata was far less of a sure thing than Whitner(plus we needed a good SS) & McCargo(who fits better) was obtained.

What is the problem?

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Here's the recap.

 

1. Buffalo is not good at run defense.

2. Buffalo likes penetrating DT's.

3. The best run defenses usually have a P. Williams type anchor

4. That type of player is not a penetrating DT

5. Buffalo should not restrict themselves with who they go after at DT because of the system.

[Mikie2times]

I liked Adams, but he was never a run-stuffer. Never wanted to be. WITH Adams, the Bills ranked #31 in total rushing yardage allowed last year, #29 in yards-per-carry.

 

Two years ago, one of the local beat reporters gave me an interesting remark about Adams' attitude. According to an assistant coach for one of Adams' previous teams, Big Sam was THE most disruptive locker-room influence he'd ever seen. I miss watching him jump the snap every now and then to flatten a shocked QB, but he's probably not a guy you'd want around for the type of rebuilding project the Bills are implementing. And as was previously mentioned, he doesn't seem to be having much of an impact in Bengal-land, where their run-D stats are actually worse than last season.

 

P. Williams, on the other hand... yeah, we could use Pat right now. Did you see him blow up Saipaia to cause Kitna's fumble last week?

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Well clearly Williams was the reason for our run defense in 03 and 04. That played out pretty decisively last year. I figured Adams release did have something to do with attitude, contract, or some outside variable. I use him as an example only because he's a body that's probably better then some of the other body's we have. It was a poor example to use.

 

What I was trying to say was I believe Jauron really loves the Cover 2, and will stick to the principles of the system. I also think he's made it clear in his own words that he likes a certain type of DT. My concern is that type of DT is not the type I see turning our run defense around. Generally speaking, you need big bucks, or a high draft pick to get an elite penetrating tackle that will shut down the run. Not exactly a common player. What if a P.Williams run stuffer is available, but he doesn't fit the type of DT for our system. I like a coach that has direction because players can follow. But with our run defense we really shouldn't be limiting ourselves.