justnzane Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Schoebel is fine if the Bills have 3 other above average lineman to play with him. Right now the other 3 spots look to be average or below. 802226[/snapback] ok a guy that gets double digit sacks with a questionable D-Line the past couple years and think he is only fine w/ 3 above average d-lineman? Come on, if he was getting double digit sacks with crappy talent around him, are you saying that he breaks the single-season sack record with 3 above average lineman around him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsguy Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Schobel is overrated. We will disappear for four games, go against a horrible tackle, and register three sacks. Take a look at the game breakdown. He disappears way too much. 801938[/snapback] Excellent summary which happens to be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Schobel is overrated. We will disappear for four games, go against a horrible tackle, and register three sacks. Take a look at the game breakdown. He disappears way too much. 801938[/snapback] Hmmmm..... 2005 Schobel 12 sacks spread over 8 games Taylor 12 sacks spread over 7 games Peppers 10.5 sacks spread over 6 games 2004 Schobel 8 sacks spread over 6 games Taylor 9.5 sacks spread over 8 games Peppers 11 sacks spread over 7 games 2003 Schobel 11.5 sacks spread over 9 games Taylor 13 sacks spread over 10 games Peppers 7 sacks spread over 7 games 2003-2005 Schobel 31.5 sacks spread over 23 games Taylor 34.5 sacks spread over 25 games Peppers 28.5 sacks spread over 20 games What was your point again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acantha Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Hmmmm..... 802474[/snapback] Seriously, there is no point in trying. It's one of those TBD things that you won't get around. It's been said many times, so it's true. It's that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 What is the opinion of Aaron Schobel around here? I know he has had some big games for the Bills where he has constantly been in the opposing QB's face. However, I have noticed that in many games (and the Chicago game in particular) Schobel tries his speed rush to the outside, and is bumped upfield by the tackle, leaving him out of the play when the QB steps up or hands off. After 5 games this year, he has 9 tackles (4 solo and 5 Zach Taylors), while his DE counterparts Denney and Kelsay both have twice as many. And two of Schobel's four solo tackles have been sacks. My question is this: When we look back at the end of the year, and Schobel has 13 sacks, many people are going to say he had a decent year. However, is he just selling himself out to get sacks with his outside speed rush, that more often than not leaves him completely out of the play? Or is he doing many things we casual fans do not notice, and earning his sacks along the way? Is he the pass-rush asset his stats suggest he is, or is he a run defense liability? 801934[/snapback] I think he is an adequate DE but nothing special. The tendency is to overestimate his value because of his sack numbers. Once in a great while, he has a dominating performance but for the most part, he is a little better than average. I am not sure I can recall more than maybe one or two occasions in his entire career where he beat a double team. He is not good enough to consistently draw double teams. The one caveat I would have is that he played very well against the Patriots on opening day but hasn't had a huge game since. I wonder if maybe, after seeing that film, our opponents aren't in fact double teaming him more resulting in his numbers dropping while the ends on the opposite side have more success. I just haven't had the time to watch the film that closely. Has anyone else looked at that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Hmmmm.....2005 Schobel 12 sacks spread over 8 games Taylor 12 sacks spread over 7 games Peppers 10.5 sacks spread over 6 games 2004 Schobel 8 sacks spread over 6 games Taylor 9.5 sacks spread over 8 games Peppers 11 sacks spread over 7 games 2003 Schobel 11.5 sacks spread over 9 games Taylor 13 sacks spread over 10 games Peppers 7 sacks spread over 7 games 2003-2005 Schobel 31.5 sacks spread over 23 games Taylor 34.5 sacks spread over 25 games Peppers 28.5 sacks spread over 20 games What was your point again? 802474[/snapback] Focusing on one stat like that can be misleading. If you just looked at interceptions you would rate Clements much higher than Winfield but if instead, you watched them play instead of counting their picks, it would be no contest, Winfield is much better. I would trade Clements for Winfield in a heartbeat. I am so tired of seeing naked WR screens turn in to 15 yard gains because Clements missed the tackle. Belichek loves to run that play to Nates side of the field because he knows, it is just a matter of time before he blows the tackle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 I don't think Schoebel is overrated, but I also don't think he is underrated...he is what he is, a solid DE, who will do better the more help that he has. He is a very good pass rusher, but is a mediocre run stopper. Schoebel is not the player that Hanson turned into late in his career, but neither was Hanson! I suspect, AS will round out his game more, when/if the Bills defense improves. He is 1.5 dimensional now, with room for improvement. 801965[/snapback] Maybe but you know, we had a very good defense for a few years there and he was basically the same player. Not so great, not so bad. A little better than average but nothing to write home about. That is my opinion based on watching him and this team for years now, not just counting his sacks. If you looked just at sacks, you would conclude that he had just as good a game against the Bears as he did against the Patriots, 1 sack each game. If you actually watched the games, you would reach far different conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Focusing on one stat like that can be misleading. If you just looked at interceptions you would rate Clements much higher than Winfield but if instead, you watched them play instead of counting their picks, it would be no contest, Winfield is much better. I would trade Clements for Winfield in a heartbeat. I am so tired of seeing naked WR screens turn in to 15 yard gains because Clements missed the tackle. Belichek loves to run that play to Nates side of the field because he knows, it is just a matter of time before he blows the tackle. 802503[/snapback] My list was in response to the comments that he has the occasional monster games where he obtains all of his sack numbers. You yourself implied this in post #25 by saying "Once in a great while, he has a dominating performance but for the most part..." I compared him with Peppers & Taylor & you can clearly see that his sack numbers come in compareable game numbers to them. It may well be true that when he is off he is waaaay off....I don't know, but he is on just as much as his contemporaries are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Maybe but you know, we had a very good defense for a few years there and he was basically the same player. Not so great, not so bad. 802505[/snapback] Which years are you talking about in which our defense was "very good?" In 2001 AS was a rookie, and still managed 6 1/2 sacks. In those days he DID tend to get pushed around by the better OTs. Hopkins beat him senseless in a pre season game, but that stopped a while ago. He had had good games vs. Ogden and Pace. Also, he only has 2 sacks this season, but he has some blocked passes (I can't find stats for them), and is back in coverage quite a bit (too much for my liking). DEs are very hard to get, and imo he was a 2nd round steal. Extending him was a great move as well imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bozman949 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 I agree with the overrated camp. Ralph's $$$ would have been better spent on Pat Williams & Sam Adams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt in KC Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 I don't really know about overrated or underrated.... My opinion of others' opinions is convoluted enough, I'm not sure I could carry on long responding to others' opinions of my response about this.... But, in terms of value (production for the $$) I think Schobel is solid, and is one of the best value on the team. When the opposing QBs run out of time in the pocket, it's usually because Schobel is a half second away (yes this means our secondary is doing its job too). He does not get the stats for these plays, but we would be dead without him. Who do we get more per dollar from? Schobel has been a bit quiet for a few games, as has the whole D-Line (the notable exception being Denney's monster game against Miami).... But over the last several years he has been an anchor for us. Not infallible, not Bruce-Smith-good, but solid and dependable. He has started in every game for us since 10/28/2001 and has been asked to do everything from contain the edge (esp in the cover 2) to cover receivers downfield under Gray, and has done well on his assignments. You guys are tough to please. Okay, I'll play along: Based solely on what I'm reading here, I'd say Schobel is underrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokinandjokin Posted October 12, 2006 Author Share Posted October 12, 2006 I think the sack numbers speak for themselves, and you can look at that stat many ways. Some find it meaningless because it's not indicative of your complete impact on the game. Some say it's the best measurement of a guy who's paid to rush the QB. Bottom line, the numbers show he gets to the QB as often, or more often, than many DE's in the league. My real question is, does he completely sell himself out just to get the sack? Could he do more, play more containment on running downs, have more of an impact in other areas besides sacks? Obviously, probably nobody here knows what Schobel is coached to do, or what the defensive system asks of him. Perhaps the coaches are telling him to rush upfield every down. However, he seems to have very little impact on the game lately other than the occasional sack. Is that comparable to other DE's? I dunno. I NEVER question Schobel's desire, effort, or intensity. I do question his constant speed rush to the outside, where a tackle or RB can bump him upfield and he finds himself completely out of the play. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Which years are you talking about in which our defense was "very good?" In 2001 AS was a rookie, and still managed 6 1/2 sacks. In those days he DID tend to get pushed around by the better OTs. Hopkins beat him senseless in a pre season game, but that stopped a while ago. He had had good games vs. Ogden and Pace. Also, he only has 2 sacks this season, but he has some blocked passes (I can't find stats for them), and is back in coverage quite a bit (too much for my liking). DEs are very hard to get, and imo he was a 2nd round steal. Extending him was a great move as well imo. 802514[/snapback] In 2003 and in 2004 the defense finished the season ranked as the second best in the entire league. I would agree that the stats they use for the overall rankings are not exactly perfect measures of a defense's effectiveness but still, you don't get ranked that highly without being pretty darn good. Schobel had 11.5 sacks and 8 sacks in those two years. I think he is better than average if not by much but at the same time, I don't buy the notion that he would be dominating or something like that if he was on a better defense. He has been on better defenses. He blocked two passes and altered a couple more in the New England game. Since then, he hasn't been much of a factor on the field or in the stat book though, as I said earlier, he might be drawing some double teams based on what he did that game. I think he is a second round pick who plays like one. Others see him playing as well as a first rounder, others see him as probably worse. All I can say is that even when this defense was ranked highly, it had trouble at the end of the 1st half and late in the 4th. Opponents at those times would, because time was running out, be forced to throw every down. In response we often went with a dime package, rushing only three or four. All you need in that situation is just one lousy coverage sack to get that clock running but we rarely were able to do that without sending extra people. For me, to really think of Schobel as something quite a bit better than average, he would have to end a few drives for us with that crucial coverage sack late in the half or in the game. He rarely did and that is why we the defense couldn't close out a game. Remember that Jacksonville opener we lost at home? That is the kind of thing I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Maybe but you know, we had a very good defense for a few years there and he was basically the same player. Not so great, not so bad. A little better than average but nothing to write home about. That is my opinion based on watching him and this team for years now, not just counting his sacks. If you looked just at sacks, you would conclude that he had just as good a game against the Bears as he did against the Patriots, 1 sack each game. If you actually watched the games, you would reach far different conclusions. 802505[/snapback] I know what you are saying, and I don't completely disagree. I know you can't just look at stats. However, if he is as poor as people here keep insisting he is, how does he manage to lead the team in sacks every year? He must be doing part of his job right...believe me, I don't think of Schoebel as an elit DE, but adequate. His biggest problem, IMO, is his play against the run. But, that is a problem for most on the Bills defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 My point was, Hansen, early on, benefitted from playing with some great defensive teammates, and became one himself over time. Schoebel has done pretty well for himself, considering the Bills really have no other significant, reliable pass rusher. It can't all be dumb luck. The more talent on the defense, the better they will all play. To me, Bryce Paup was the ultimate "opportunist". He was great in Green Bay (benefitting from Reggie White) and in Buffalo, playing with Bruce Smith. On his own merits, he was a pretty average athlete, but took advantage of his sorroundings, and had a pretty stellar career. You can't fault Paup for that, just like I think you can't say Schoebel is overrated as a pass rusher. I'll grant your point about Paup benefiting from the good play of those around him. But Paup wasn't the only Buffalo Bill to play on the same team as Bruce Smith. He was, however, the only Bill to get 17 1/2 sacks in a single season. He was named defensive MVP for the NFL in the process. If being on the same team as Bruce Smith made those accomplishments easy, why didn't the other outside linebackers who've played with Bruce Smith achieve the same things? The bottom line is that Paup had an absolutely monster season for the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 I know what you are saying, and I don't completely disagree. I know you can't just look at stats. However, if he is as poor as people here keep insisting he is, how does he manage to lead the team in sacks every year? He must be doing part of his job right...believe me, I don't think of Schoebel as an elit DE, but adequate. His biggest problem, IMO, is his play against the run. But, that is a problem for most on the Bills defense. 802763[/snapback] I don't agree with people who really run him down, I just think he is a fair defensive end and that is about it. We have plenty of other concerns on this defense before we can afford to upgrade his position. I don't think we have the LB's for this defense. In this defense they have to fend off blocks, the tackles aren't responsible for keeping the OL from getting to them. So far, they have had pretty mixed results. I'm hoping that as they get more snaps in this defense, they will get better. Getting Spikes back, if he can play like his old self, would really help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oneonta Buffalo Fan Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBilliever Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 Being a good Defensive End is far beyond stats. There are numerous plays where he will make a magnificent pass rush and rush the quarterback in to making a bad or hurried throw. I find him to be a great asset to the defense in both a mental aspect and a physical disruption. Kudos to him and those who realize it's far more than stats alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffal0 Bill5 Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 Okay, I'll play along: Based solely on what I'm reading here, I'd say Schobel is underrated. 802616[/snapback] I hope you don't base alot of your decisions on what you read here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Angel Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 What is the opinion of Aaron Schobel around here? I know he has had some big games for the Bills where he has constantly been in the opposing QB's face. However, I have noticed that in many games (and the Chicago game in particular) Schobel tries his speed rush to the outside, and is bumped upfield by the tackle, leaving him out of the play when the QB steps up or hands off. After 5 games this year, he has 9 tackles (4 solo and 5 Zach Taylors), while his DE counterparts Denney and Kelsay both have twice as many. And two of Schobel's four solo tackles have been sacks. My question is this: When we look back at the end of the year, and Schobel has 13 sacks, many people are going to say he had a decent year. However, is he just selling himself out to get sacks with his outside speed rush, that more often than not leaves him completely out of the play? Or is he doing many things we casual fans do not notice, and earning his sacks along the way? Is he the pass-rush asset his stats suggest he is, or is he a run defense liability? 801934[/snapback] Schobel is a quality defensive end he gets more attention than Kelsay and Denney he also plays across from left tackles who are generally better than right tackles that his counterparts oppose. Schobel is not an elite player by any means and its has been pretty much understood that most of his sacks come in garbage time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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