Orton's Arm Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 He certainly wasn't ready for this game, thats for sure. This could've been a big win, and Losman, along with the team choked. 798897[/snapback] No you're wrong. It was JP's fault. He only passes it to one receiver or he dumps it off to McGahee. Signed Scott Law 798953[/snapback] Neither Scott Law nor anyone else on this thread is saying the Bills would have won had Losman played better. For you or other Losman supporters to pretend that this is what is being said is a classic case of a straw man argument. What Scott and others are saying is that Losman played poorly, even taking into account the mistakes of others on the team. Agree or disagree with that view as you like, but at least do us the favor of representing it fairly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 What is your ranking based on? What kind of stats do you use? Do you compare the career stats or this year's numbers? I hope you don't just choose few stats that favor your arguments or base everything on your observations like VABILLS. 800036[/snapback] Wow, I am famous. Seriously though it's better than that xyzabc, jump for joy rating system you use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syhuang Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Did you say something, VABills? Unfortunately, you're in my ignored user list and I don't want to waste my time to click the "View this opst" link or "Un-ignore VABills" link. ------------- You have chosen to ignore VABills. View this post · Un-ignore VABills ------------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 What's this "still" business? ;-) Top Tier QB's: P. Manning T. Brady C. Palmer D. McNabb M. Hasselbeck D. Carr Second Tier QB's E. Manning M. Bulger J. Delhomme M. Vick (an * if ever there was one) D. Brees R. Grossman P. Rivers Third Tier QB's: B. Leftwich C. Pennington B. Favre (I still put him up here) S. McNair A. Smith Fourth Tier QB's: J. Plummer B. Roethlisberger M. Brunell C. Frye B. Johnson Cover-Your-Eyes-Awful Tier: D. Bledsoe J. Kitna D. Culpepper A. Brooks/A. Walter/M. Tuiasasopo Unratabe: M. Leinart V. Young B. Gradkowski D. Huard I probably put Losman at the bottom of that 4th Tier, which I guess gets him into the Top 20 - but consider that four teams are playing without ratable QB's, and another four are in the cover-your-eyes-awful tier (which I do *not* put Losman in), being in the Top 20 isn't saying that much.... JDG 799660[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 JDG, Your list proves that you rate your QBs based on their Fantasy performance. When did David Carr, become an Elite QB ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDG Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Interesting analysis of QBs. One of the more controversial names on that list is Ben Roethlisberger. Yes, he played badly in the Super Bowl, and he hasn't exactly been dynamite this year. But last year, he was playing like a tier 1 QB in the regular season and in the playoffs. I disagree with your decision to rate him several tiers lower than, for example, David Carr. You've been a little generous to McNabb. McNabb didn't achieve a whole lot before he got Terrell Owens, he had that one good Owens year, then he got hurt/played badly last year. Yes, he's gotten off to a very good start this year, but it's just a few games in the eighth year of his career. While I'm not exactly in awe of Bledsoe, I feel that putting him in the "cover your eyes awful tier" is a little harsh. This year, Bledsoe is averaging 6.86 yards per attempt; a somewhat higher figure than his career average of 6.64 yards per attempt. I guess some of my disagreement with your analysis would go away if I knew it was based on what QBs are doing this year as opposed to what they've done throughout their careers. For example, Ben Roethisberger's career yards per attempt is 8.38, which is significantly better than McNabb's career average of 6.74. But Roethlisberger is off to a much worse start in 2006 than is McNabb. 800016[/snapback] I put that together rather quickly, as I was just amazed that we were having a discussion about Losman being a "Top 20" QB. He certainly isn't, at least not yet. In part, I relied upon general perceptions, as well as my own personal opinion. I personally like Michael Vick, and I think that I'd even consider him a Top Tier QB. Obviously, if I had it back, I'd put David Carr lower... he's playing well this year, but not that well. Ben Roethlisberger was a tough call as well. He's played terrible this year when I have seen him, but obviously he has produced in the past. I think we'd all agree, though, that any NFL Team would rather have Roethlisberger under center than Losman at this point. Actually, I think the things that impressed me the most about this exercise are: a) how tough it is to rank QB's 1-32 b) how good even the QB's in the 15-20 and 20-25 range are I just don't see how Losman's even in the conversation yet. JDG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 JDG, Your list proves that you rate your QBs based on their Fantasy performance. When did David Carr, become an Elite QB ? 800094[/snapback] Yeah well I had issues with a few guys. Brad Johnson, Tier 4???? Has he actually watched him play. Philip Rivers doesn't belong in the top 10 yet. Also Leftwhich, even with his slow release is a pretty darn good QB, same goes for Pennington and his limited arm strength. Kitna, also isn't cover your eyes aweful. Again this is where stats get you into trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDG Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Yeah well I had issues with a few guys. Brad Johnson, Tier 4???? Has he actually watched him play. Philip Rivers doesn't belong in the top 10 yet. Also Leftwhich, even with his slow release is a pretty darn good QB, same goes for Pennington and his limited arm strength. Kitna, also isn't cover your eyes aweful. Again this is where stats get you into trouble. 800100[/snapback] I generally like Brad Johnson to - but who do you rate him as being better as? Plus, he didn't impress me that much against the Bills. Rivers is tough too, but after seeing him pick apart the Steelers yesterday, I'm willing to rate him as being pretty good. A reasonable person could put him in the "unratable" category - but I don't think anyone is arguing that Losman is better than Rivers at this point.... I dumped on Kitna because of his turnover-fest in Minnesota... which was a little unfair. But I didn't want to debate "is Kitna better than Losman?" If I was doing the rankings for a non-Losman-centric perspective, I probably rate him higher.... The other guy, besides Carr (if not others) that I think I got clearly wrong in doing that quickly is that Alex Smith is too high. In fairness, he's still in the Losman-caliber mix. JDG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 I put that together rather quickly, as I was just amazed that we were having a discussion about Losman being a "Top 20" QB. He certainly isn't, at least not yet. In part, I relied upon general perceptions, as well as my own personal opinion. I personally like Michael Vick, and I think that I'd even consider him a Top Tier QB. Obviously, if I had it back, I'd put David Carr lower... he's playing well this year, but not that well. Ben Roethlisberger was a tough call as well. He's played terrible this year when I have seen him, but obviously he has produced in the past. I think we'd all agree, though, that any NFL Team would rather have Roethlisberger under center than Losman at this point. Actually, I think the things that impressed me the most about this exercise are: a) how tough it is to rank QB's 1-32 b) how good even the QB's in the 15-20 and 20-25 range are I just don't see how Losman's even in the conversation yet. JDG 800097[/snapback] I had similar thoughts as your points a and b. Great minds, I suppose, think alike! Looking at your original list, I wondered to myself what on earth Brad Johnson was doing in tier 4. A guy like that seems like he should be higher. But there weren't very many QBs ahead of him whom I felt were clearly inferior. Granted there were a few; among them Michael Vick! Michael Vick is a very athletic QB, with a big-time arm, who can throw a beautiful deep ball, but has questionable accuracy and decision-making skills. I'm a little puzzled by why you like Vick more than most people do, yet seem to see Losman in a less positive light than most people on these boards. Not that I'm complaining about your Losman views, mind you, just wondering about how much weight you think should be placed on athleticism versus accuracy and decision making skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 I generally like Brad Johnson to - but who do you rate him as being better as? Plus, he didn't impress me that much against the Bills. Rivers is tough too, but after seeing him pick apart the Steelers yesterday, I'm willing to rate him as being pretty good. A reasonable person could put him in the "unratable" category - but I don't think anyone is arguing that Losman is better than Rivers at this point.... I dumped on Kitna because of his turnover-fest in Minnesota... which was a little unfair. But I didn't want to debate "is Kitna better than Losman?" If I was doing the rankings for a non-Losman-centric perspective, I probably rate him higher.... JDG 800109[/snapback] I don't know where these guysrate at this point. If I had my own team I know the guys I wouldn't think twice about being my starting QB would include both Payton and Eli Manning, Brady, Palmer, Mcnabb, Hasselbeck, Bulger, Delhomme, or Pennington pre-injury. I alo think Mcnair is a fine QB, but right now a little old, but otherwise yeah. Beyond that I don't know. Maybe Leftwich, Brees, Favre (again, a little old), Roeth, Johnson. After that I really don't how to rate, because of too inconsistant or young to really evaluate, or too athletic with limited ability (Vick). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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