Question for the J.P.Losman haters

[Kelly the Dog]

My problem with the JP haters versus the JP lovers or supporters is that I havent seen any supporter say he is great, or that is already very good. Everyone seems to think he needs to grow and be more consistent and win. But they see hope and improvement. They defend individual attacks against him. For specific things. But the JP haters are the ones that, to me, go to the extremes, as if it is set in stone. Or, worse, they make the jump from a post or poster supporting Losman about one thing to saying "Okay, yeah, we know, Losman is perfect. He's in the hall of fame already." When no one came remotely close to implying it.

[BuffOrange]

It's the "whoah, get ready for Brady Quinn" posts, and "Losman does not have the tools" posts, and "he is not an NFL quarterback" posts, and the "he sucked this week, so he will never get better" posts, the stuff that is about as far from "let's wait and see" as can be -- that's the sh-- that gets annoying.  As if we're a QB away from the Super Bowl and JP's play is all that's holding the team back.  It's the kind of mentality that has had this team out of the playoffs for years.  No patience for growth, all reactionary decisions that have hurt this team in the long run.

 

Losman supporters and those who want to believe probably play right into it (myself included) by trying to defend all the time.  I just think the jury is still out and it might just be best to leave it at that for awhile.  I feel like the team is being managed by capable hands.  I like the tack Jauron is taking -- one of patient yet stern guidance, with an emphasis on mistake-free football.  They'll know whether or not JP continues to deserve a chance, or has "made it" to the next level in their eyes.  That's all that matters.

788984[/snapback]

 

I see your point and I tottally agree with the 2nd paragraph. The bolded part, I really don't understand. What specifically are you talking about - the Bledsoe trade? I might agree with that, but it's not like we've cut loose a plethora of young talent because of impatience in recent years. I'd say the McGahee draft pick required a lot of patience. Holding the franchise back has been poor personnel rather than a particular philosophy IMO. I mean - look at the 2002 draft class - they're still here, they've been given time, and they suck. Maybe I'm one of those impatient/pessimistic guys, but I tend to think the Miami game this year was the anomaly rather than the previous 4 years.

[Orton's Arm]

Maybe JG&HA can correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't read and I don't think anyone doesn't want him to start this year. 

As Kelly pointed out, Losman's had both very good and very bad moments in his career. My view of Losman is this: TD felt Losman was worth a first round draft pick. Then again, TD has never made a major QB decision that turned out to be successful, so his endorsement of Losman means little or nothing. For this reason, Losman should be evaluated in the same light as any other young QB on our roster. The Bills should ignore the fact that Losman was a first round pick, and Nall a second-tier free agent.

 

The decision as to which QB to start should be based on which shows the most long-term potential today, not which one was drafted higher a few years ago. I feel being a good quarterback is 90% mental and 10% physical. If Nall has an edge in reading defenses or throwing the ball accurately, that means a lot more to me than Losman's greater mobility.

 

The Bills' coaching staff at least pretended to feel the same way I do, which is why they had an open quarterback competition. Unfortunately, by the time Nall really started to get the new offense, he got hurt. When he came back, he found that the starting position was JP's to lose. Losman played better than I expected in the preseason, and did nothing to lose his front runner status.

 

But is he really the better quarterback? I'm not so sure. The same people who ask that JP be given at least 16 games or 32 games are willing to write Nall off after what was actually a fairly reasonable preseason effort. Nall was clearly playing better toward the end of the preseason as he got a better feel for the offense and the players around him. That one play where he completed a pass while he was being hauled down was simply amazing. The announcers said he had absolutely no business whatsoever even attempting that pass.

 

The man's got guts, and I'd like to see him get significant playing time in the regular season. This isn't to say JP should be benched after that Jets game. Clearly now is not the right time. But at some point, I would like to see what Nall can or can't do.

[JDG]

My problem with the JP haters versus the JP lovers or supporters is that I havent seen any supporter say he is great, or that is already very good. Everyone seems to think he needs to grow and be more consistent and win. But they see hope and improvement. They defend individual attacks against him. For specific things. But the JP haters are the ones that, to me, go to the extremes, as if it is set in stone. Or, worse, they make the jump from a post or poster supporting Losman about one thing to saying "Okay, yeah, we know, Losman is perfect. He's in the hall of fame already." When no one came remotely close to implying it.

788989[/snapback]

 

What's interesting, is that I don't seem to remember ever saying that.... Maybe there's someone else saying that around here (I only read a portion of the posts here), but that person isn't me.....

 

It's the "whoah, get ready for Brady Quinn" posts, and "Losman does not have the tools" posts, and "he is not an NFL quarterback" posts, and the "he sucked this week, so he will never get better" posts, the stuff that is about as far from "let's wait and see" as can be -- that's the sh-- that gets annoying. 

 

This gets closer to what I have been saying, but isn't quite right. The closest I have come to saying that "Losman does not have the tolls" has been when I have questioned his decision-making abilities - which IMHO, even Kelly the Dog has questioned. He certainly has plenty of physical tools.

 

As for saying that "he is not an NFL quarterback", I certainly have not said that this season. In fact, I've said repeatedly this season that he is the best QB on our roster, that he won the starting job fair and square, and that I can't imagine any single-game performance that should cause Losman to lose that job. I did say that about Losman early last season in defending the decision to bench him because, well, for at least a three game stretch last year he *wasn't* an NFL quarterback. I'm very happy that he has improved from that nearly off-the-charts bad level he was at early last season.

 

Losman supporters and those who want to believe probably play right into it (myself included) by trying to defend all the time. 

 

I think that's one of the fairest self-assessments I have seen. I know that I felt the most push-back last season when I would see some post of the general format "Yes, Losman has played badly, *but* QB X also played badly when he first started" and I would point out that no, while QB X did play badly when he first started, Losman was actually playing significantly worse than that bad level! - and that that makes it harder to force-feed Losman starting experience the way QB X was given starting experience.

 

Of course, almost all of those discussions happened last season - so it doesn't seem to explain the reactions I am getting this season.

 

JDG

[Mickey]

My problem with the JP haters versus the JP lovers or supporters is that I havent seen any supporter say he is great, or that is already very good. Everyone seems to think he needs to grow and be more consistent and win. But they see hope and improvement. They defend individual attacks against him. For specific things. But the JP haters are the ones that, to me, go to the extremes, as if it is set in stone. Or, worse, they make the jump from a post or poster supporting Losman about one thing to saying "Okay, yeah, we know, Losman is perfect. He's in the hall of fame already." When no one came remotely close to implying it.

788989[/snapback]

Some just aren't ever going to get over us not having taken Leinart.

[JDG]

Kelly,

I think the vast majority of fans would agree with that assessment; including those who aren't "JP guys" such as myself.  It's pretty incredible how many perceived differences really come down to semantics - the internet has a way of doing that.

 

There's some real truth to that.

 

I really don't understand these comparisons to other QB's.  Plenty of great QB's stunk early in their careers and even more bad QB's stunk early and never improved.  Whatever, it means about nothing as far as predicting what JP will become.  I find the Eli Manning optimistic comparison posts especially useless, since Eli is an average QB at this point IMO (I'd say he'd be below average without the clutch plays vs. Philly & Denver last year).  I guess if JP reaches Eli's level this year I'll take it, but ultimately I want him to be better than that.

 

Well, everyone's opinion of Eli Manning is a bit clouded because a) he's a Manning and b) he's a productive Fantasy QB.

 

Getting back to the semantics (because sadly that's what these threads are usually about)....I don't understand the vile intense hatred for "JP haters".  Maybe JG&HA can correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't read and I don't think anyone doesn't want him to start this year.  They're just not optimistic based on the available evidence - what's the big deal?  You may think they go overboard sometimes, and maybe they do in providing slanted views.  But for anyone who has an objective 'wait & see' approach to JP, is it really more annoying than the: "I'm going to be the tard this week haha look at me I'm funny" threads or the incredibly widespread "our 150yd rusher sucks because he missed a block" stuff?  I can't see how any rational avid reader of the boards can't clearly see that it's getting to the point where a lot of people want to throw the rest of the team under the bus to defend JP, which was annoying during the Midget years but really inexplicable now since there's no QB controversy and we all want JP to succeed.

788977[/snapback]

 

I certainly believe that Losman rightfully is and should continue to be our starter, and should hopefully get better.

 

Thanks for the post.

 

JDG

[JDG]

Like I said, I have typed ad nauseum what I think about Losman and his nine games, and his three this year. If you want a cliff notes version of the thousands of posts...

 

I think he has been at times horrible, bad, average, fair, good and once in awhile great. Much more bad than good but getting better and better, and he no longer seems to play horrible or bad.

 

I think he has a great arm but hasn't been able to harness it all the way yet at all, which comes with game experience.

 

I have seen him make "all the throws" as they say, and show that he has a touch, too. But more often so far, or showing that touch, he has thrown balls with no touch at all. That too, is something than may come with experience but we don't know that for sure yet.

 

I have seen him already show terrific ball handling skills in hard to perfect things like play action and clean handoffs and fakes, and bootlegs, etc. Something Marino couldn't do in his entire career. And have also seen him just fall down or lose the ball backpedaling when no one hits him. I have seen him careless with the ball and fumble too much when hit. That also will likely go away with experience in games over time but it has severely harmed his overall play so far and it happens far too much.

 

I have seen him throw gorgeous bombs numerous times. I have seen him throw it practically out of the stadium. I have seen him throw darts on the run while rolling out without losing stride with tremendous accuracy. I have seen him throw the ball with great velocity and accuracy while rolling to his left which is extremely difficult, and there may be one or two QBs in the entire league that can do that. In fact, I don't know of one that can throw so hard without turning his body and slowing down. It's a downright amazing thing to see. On the other hand, I have seen him throw dozens of passes right into the dirt with no pressure and an open reciever. Those passes are getting much more infrequent the more he plays. I attributed them to being jittery and nervous rather than being inaccurate. QBs will always make some bad throws. The great QBs will make only 1-2-3 a game. He is nowhere close to being there yet at all but his accuracy is continually improving. It's not where it needs to be. It should be by the end of this year IMO.

 

I have seen him with terror in his eyes, totally in over his head, and unable to do even the simplest of things. That was last year, when things were falling apart in front of him and he wasn't able to handle it. Those days are gone for good, IMO, due to experience and another year in the league. He will still have bad games but he won't panic like he did in games 2-4 last year.

 

I have seen him show great wheels, good running ability, terrific scrambling ability, at times a great knack for escape, a willingness to lower his head, a nose for the goalline like last week. I have also seen him scramble at the worst times, be careless by and in his own endzone, try to make too much out of a play when the chances are slim. He should learn and I predict he will learn when to do it and when not to do it. I fear he will always make some bonehead decisions scrambling no matter how much experience he has.

 

I have seen him look like a star, look like he has total command of the offense, like his teammates are behind him and look like a potential stud. I have also seen him look totally stupid, lost, ill-equipped, unprepared and in too deep. That is still happening but less. It may or may not turn him from what he is to what he could be. The jury is still out on that.

 

I have yet to see him just win a game all by himself. I have yet to see him make the one play he needs to make that is a W in the books. I have yet to see him lead the perfect come from behind last second march down the field to victory. Some guys have a knack for that. I have yet to see him take the team on his back. He has yet to show it. It is my hope that he has it in him. I am not sure.

 

I have seen him do and say all the right things. I have seen him work extremely hard. I have seen him take responsibility for his mistakes. I have seen him get on his teammates when he felt he needed to. I have seen him gain respect of his coaches and fellow Bills. I have seen him try his damndest to get better. You cannot teach all of that. It's a good start. I have also seen him let his emotions get the best of him far too many times. He cannot continue to do that. I think that comes with experience, too.

 

He has a chance to be great. Really great. All it is is a chance, but there are very few quarterbacks in the entire league, even all time greats, that have the toolset this guy has. He has it all. Literally. There isn't a weakness in his physical game as far as I can tell. He has a rocket for an arm. He has great running ability. He can make touch passes. He can play in bad elements. He can throw with remarkable velocity and accuracy on the run. He can ball-handle. He has the fire in his belly. He has the work ethic. He has decent size. He understands the position and the game, and his responsibilities. he has shown he can read defenses. He is not dumb. He has the flair for the dramatic and spectacular. And he loves Buffalo. So I have hope. He doesn't do anything great yet though. He is not even a very good quarterback yet. He's rather average. But his kind of "5" is a 9-0-10-1, which, to me, is much better than most player's "5's" which are 3-5-7-5. If he eliminates some of the 1's, and turns them into 5's and 6's he could be special.

788935[/snapback]

 

Kelly,

 

Thanks for taking the time to make such a comprehensive post on what is admittedly a somewhat tired topic.

 

The two questions I have, are:

 

1) Why, when looking at Losman's first 9-12 games are you so positive and optimistic about what the future holds, but when looking at Brees' first 9-12 you only had negative things to say?

 

2) How are the basic conclusions of what you have to say so different from my own basic conclusions?

 

For example, here:

http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showtopic=52318

 

As another example, I could agree with this quote:

"I think he has been at times horrible, bad, average, fair, good and once in awhile great. Much more bad than good but getting better and better, and he no longer seems to play horrible...."

 

(You add "or bad" at the end of it - but I'm not quite ready to go there yet, especially after just three games this season where he was 1-2, and made some serious negative plays in both the losses, and played just barely well enough to win in the one win. But still, that's pretty glose agreement.)

 

 

As another example:

"I have seen him with terror in his eyes, totally in over his head, and unable to do even the simplest of things. That was last year, when things were falling apart in front of him and he wasn't able to handle it. "

 

I would totally agree with this as well. Indeed, that's one reason why have regularly defended the decision to bench Losman after four games last season - in my mind it was the only thing *to* do, because, as you note, he couldn't handle it.

 

 

As another example:

"On the other hand, I have seen him throw dozens of passes right into the dirt with no pressure and an open reciever. Those passes are getting much more infrequent the more he plays."

 

Not only would I agree with that, but it is very similar to one of my most recent posts on Losman - where I noted that while there were a few passes in the dirt against the Jets, his accuracy had improved, and I was hopeful that it would continue to improve.

 

 

As another example:

"I have yet to see him just win a game all by himself. I have yet to see him make the one play he needs to make that is a W in the books. I have yet to see him lead the perfect come from behind last second march down the field to victory. Some guys have a knack for that. I have yet to see him take the team on his back. He has yet to show it. It is my hope that he has it in him. I am not sure."

 

This is very similar to my take after the Miami game - it was great that we managed the game around him ala Ravens-era Trent Dilfer, I expressed the hope that our investment in him would produce a QB who would make the rest of his team better and that would win games for us, rather than having wins managed around him. This is also very similar to my take after the Jets game, that while he does good things, he isn't quite good enough for us to win with yet - and he has not yet shown the knack for the 4th Quarter comeback.

 

About the biggest difference I can see is that if you are looking at potential in a QB, the first thing you look at are physical tools and the first thing that I look at is decision-making. You seem to have a more optimistic view of Losman's exhibited decision-making so far than I do, but I think that's a fair difference of opinion - and I have also noted that he has certainly improved in this area.

 

Anyhow, thanks again for your post, and I guess I don't see where all the vitriol from you (and others, like AK Darin, etc.) comes from......

 

JDG

[JDG]

As Kelly pointed out, Losman's had both very good and very bad moments in his career.  My view of Losman is this: TD felt Losman was worth a first round draft pick.  Then again, TD has never made a major QB decision that turned out to be successful, so his endorsement of Losman means little or nothing.  For this reason, Losman should be evaluated in the same light as any other young QB on our roster.  The Bills should ignore the fact that Losman was a first round pick, and Nall a second-tier free agent.

789009[/snapback]

 

That hardly seems fair. There seems to be ample evidence that Losman was a first-round QB talent, and would have been taken in the first round by some other GM, if not by Donahoe.

 

JDG

[Orton's Arm]

That hardly seems fair.  There seems to be ample evidence that Losman was a first-round QB talent, and would have been taken in the first round by some other GM, if not by Donahoe.

I know that Mike Sherman (since relieved of GM duties) was also interested in taking Losman with a first round pick. Another GM (I don't remember his name) said he wouldn't take Losman with the last pick of the seventh round. But the real question is what the rest of the GMs in the NFL felt about Losman, and I just don't know the answer to that.

 

In any case, Bill Parcells believes (and I agree) that you shouldn't worry about where a player was drafted. If your sixth round pick plays better than your second round pick, you start the sixth rounder. At least on the surface, the Bills took this approach to their quarterback situation. Losman didn't win the job as convincingly as you describe, because Nall's injury prevented him from getting the same chance Losman had. Given the circumstances, I can see why the Bills acted as they did. But the events of the preseason aren't conclusive as to which of the two quarterbacks will have the better career.

[Orton's Arm]

About the biggest difference I can see is that if you are looking at potential in a QB, the first thing you look at are physical tools and the first thing that I look at is decision-making.

Not only is that the biggest difference between Kelly the Dog and yourself, it's also the biggest difference between most Losman optimists and most Losman pessimists. The former seem to view good decision making as something that can be coached into almost any young quarterback, while the latter tend to see this as an innate talent Losman may not have.

[VABills]

Not only is that the biggest difference between Kelly the Dog and yourself, it's also the biggest difference between most Losman optimists and most Losman pessimists.  The former seem to view good decision making as something that can be coached into almost any young quarterback, while the latter tend to see this as an innate talent Losman may not have.

789225[/snapback]

No my problem i the fact that he is a Fit driver, and commented on Brett Farves ass.

[Kelly the Dog]

Not only is that the biggest difference between Kelly the Dog and yourself, it's also the biggest difference between most Losman optimists and most Losman pessimists.  The former seem to view good decision making as something that can be coached into almost any young quarterback, while the latter tend to see this as an innate talent Losman may not have.

789225[/snapback]

No, that is totally wrong, IMO. Consistent good decision-making for a quarterback comes with experience. Some have it and some don't. But it is very, very rare that a QB shows consistent good decision-making in their first year as a starter. JP is also young, and raw, and only started two years of college ball. So he needs a little more time than, say, Phillip Rivers, who started four full years of college ball. Decision-making comes when the game slows down for you, when you don't have to think about 100 things you have been told but it's been totally assimilated in your head. When you do not usually see things on the field for the first time but it is now the third or fourth time. When you realize the complexities and the shenanigans of the defense and able to process them instantly. That all comes from experience. No Losman supporter has said that this has already happened. They say that he needs at least a full season as the starter to see if it will happen because they see serious signs of improvement.

[MDH]

No, that is totally wrong, IMO. Consistent good decision-making for a quarterback comes with experience. Some have it and some don't. But it is very, very rare that a QB shows consistent good decision-making in their first year as a starter. JP is also young, and raw, and only started two years of college ball. So he needs a little more time than, say, Phillip Rivers, who started four full years of college ball. Decision-making comes when the game slows down for you, when you don't have to think about 100 things you have been told but it's been totally assimilated in your head. When you do not usually see things on the field for the first time but it is now the third or fourth time. When you realize the complexities and the shenanigans of the defense and able to process them instantly. That all comes from experience. No Losman supporter has said that this has already happened. They say that he needs at least a full season as the starter to see if it will happen because they see serious signs of improvement.

789231[/snapback]

 

I admire your patience Kelly. I can't believe you continue to ram your head into the brick wall that is Holcombs Arm's stance on JP. Perhaps one day you'll knock a brick out.

[Ramius]

In any case, Bill Parcells believes (and I agree) that you shouldn't worry about where a player was drafted.  If your sixth round pick plays better than your second round pick, you start the sixth rounder. 

 

Funny of YOU to bring this up, when you have trashed TD for his lack of quality starters in rounds 1 and 2. Now, accoring toyou, it doesnt matter when a player is drafted. Typical mindless flip-flopping to continue your crusade.

 

At least on the surface, the Bills took this approach to their quarterback situation.  Losman didn't win the job as convincingly as you describe, because Nall's injury prevented him from getting the same chance Losman had.  Given the circumstances, I can see why the Bills acted as they did.  But the events of the preseason aren't conclusive as to which of the two quarterbacks will have the better career.

789224[/snapback]

 

Losman whooped Nall's and Holcomb's asses during preseason in case you didnt notice. The one ok game Nall had was against some backups and 3rd stringers. Sure Nall got hurt in camp, but you roll with the punches. If the coaches really thought that Nall could be the starter, they would have made one hell of an effort to have him pass JP. The competition was set up for JP to win. They knew he coudl beat holcomb, and they bring in another scrub (Nall) to make it look like an open competition. The most hopes the coaching staff had for Nall was possibly that he was a 1:10,000 QB like brady/delhomme. He showed early on that he wasnt, so he's around now to eventually beat out holcomb as the backup.

 

I also find it interesting that you think Nall needs a fair shot to show what he can do, while not affording JP that same opportunity. Just another reason your opinion carries zero credibility.

[Kelly the Dog]

I admire your patience Kelly.  I can't believe you continue to ram your head into the brick wall that is Holcombs Arm's stance on JP.  Perhaps one day you'll knock a brick out.

789250[/snapback]

Perhaps it is because I have rammed my head into the brick wall so many times that I am still doing this. I keep thinking of him as a serial thread killer, and he must be stopped.

[JDG]

In any case, Bill Parcells believes (and I agree) that you shouldn't worry about where a player was drafted.  If your sixth round pick plays better than your second round pick, you start the sixth rounder. 

 

The classic example of this would be benching Bledsoe in favor of Brady, especially had Bledsoe's injury not intervened.

 

At least on the surface, the Bills took this approach to their quarterback situation.  Losman didn't win the job as convincingly as you describe, because Nall's injury prevented him from getting the same chance Losman had.  Given the circumstances, I can see why the Bills acted as they did.  But the events of the preseason aren't conclusive as to which of the two quarterbacks will have the better career.

789224[/snapback]

 

I disagree. While the fans have only limited looks at a player, mostly in preseason games, the coaches have hours upon hours of looks at a player in practices, meetings, the film room, and in minicamp and training camp. I haven't gotten any sense that anybody who has watched these things has seen anything other than Losman cleary beating Nall. This is especially significant given that Losman is an "old regime" guy, and Nall is a "new regime" guy.

 

Losman then went on to play well in the preseason games to cement his hold on the job. While Losman hasn't been particularly good in our three regular season games so far, he is significantly ahead of where he was last year. At an objective level, his level of performance has not been at a level where I would consider benching him simply to have change for the sake of change - particularly not for the sake of change to someone whom I think he has beaten.

 

JDG

[reddogblitz]

No, that is totally wrong, IMO. Consistent good decision-making for a quarterback comes with experience. Some have it and some don't. But it is very, very rare that a QB shows consistent good decision-making in their first year as a starter.

789231[/snapback]

 

When Tom Brady tood over for Blue Dredsloe for the Pats he had played very little. Yet, his decision making was very good. As a rookie, Dan Marino's deison making was good as he took his team to the Super Bowl.

 

I supose this could be the rare case(s) you are talking about.

 

I tend to agree with your adversary though. A winner is a winner and it can't be taught. Either you have it or you don't. Team mates react to it too. Remember when Rob Johnson would be not doing so well and they'd put in Doug Flutie and it immediately looked like a different team. I saw it first hand several times. Once at the Ralph, the lady in front of he said, "they play different when Flutie's in there than when RJ's in there That's not fair." I saw the same thing when Roger Staubach took over for Craig Morton in the 1972 NFC Championship. I saw it last year and into this year when Brad Johnson took over for Duante Culpepper.

[Kelly the Dog]

When Tom Brady tood over for Blue Dredsloe for the Pats he had played very little.  Yet, his decision making was very good.  As a rookie, Dan Marino's deison making was good as he took his team to the Super Bowl.

 

I supose this could be the rare case(s) you are talking about. 

 

I tend to agree with your adversary though.  A winner is a winner and it can't be taught.  Either you have it or you don't.  Team mates react to it too.  Remember when Rob Johnson would be not doing so well and they'd put in Doug Flutie and it immediately looked like a different team.  I saw it first hand several times.  Once at the Ralph, the lady in front of he said, "they play different when Flutie's in there than when RJ's in there  That's not fair."  I saw the same thing when Roger Staubach took over for Craig Morton in the 1972 NFC Championship.  I saw it last year and into this year when Brad Johnson took over for Duante Culpepper.

789600[/snapback]

Good post. Except that Flutie was 36 when he took over for Rob and didn't have it at all in his first few years, he was cut by two teams. Staubach was 30 in 1972, in his third year. Johnson was 37 last year in his 12th season.

[reddogblitz]

Good post. Except that Flutie was 36 when he took over for Rob and didn't have it at all in his first few years, he was cut by two teams. Staubach was 30 in 1972, in his third year. Johnson was 37 last year in his 12th season.

789611[/snapback]

 

Good points. In the old days (like 1972) a rookie QB would come in and study under a vet for 4 or 5 years sometimes. Then when they did come in, they were ready. This is another of the many downsides of free agency from fans point of view. If you draft a rookie now days you better play him or in few years as a Free Agent, he's gone and you've paid him all that $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for nothing.

[Orton's Arm]

I can't believe you continue to ram your head into the brick wall that is Holcombs Arm's stance on JP.

 

Typical mindless flip-flopping to continue your crusade.

Usually you get accused of being a brick wall or of engaging in flip-flopping. In fact, it's often a choose your poison type situation. Looks like my, uh, "fans" are trying to ram both types of poison down my throat!