Question for the J.P.Losman haters

[justnzane]

So, how would you describe Losman's first season, then?

 

JDG

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injured

[JDG]

This is better, we're now on something.

 

For your question, I mentioned earlier, counting a game when a quarterback comes in for one or two series  to give the starting qb a breath is not a good measurement.

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I agree. Hence why I don't consider Losman's rookie-season stats - they don't represent a full game's performance. I don't see how that's an issue here...

 

JDG

[JDG]

injured 

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touche!

 

JDG

[syhuang]

Good. Do you have other questions on the comparison method (assume QB rating is acceptable)?

 

I agree.  Hence why I don't consider Losman's rookie-season stats - they don't represent a full game's performance.  I don't see how that's an issue here...

 

JDG

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[Kelly the Dog]

So, you're saying that while you could write several sentences describing Drew Brees' first season, you feel that you cannot say anything meaningful about JP Losman's first season because he got benched?  Is that accurate?

 

JDG

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No, I am saying it's ridiculous to ask how your freshman year went after the first semester and before the second. Losman IMO hasn't finished his first year of playing yet.

 

It's basically what everyone is saying but you and HA. It's dumb to come to any conclusions about him because he hasn't been given sufficient time to know whether he is going to suck, be average, be good or be great. So his grade is incomplete, which is what I said. His first year, too, was on one of the biggest clusterfukks in NFL history, with terrible coaching, terrible play-calling, lousy receivers, an average run game, terrible line play, veteran dissention, a WR that quit, a coach that quit, a GM in trouble, and a defense that couldn't stop anyone.

 

It's apples and oranges to compare Losman's season to anyone's season because of the ridiculous circumstances surrounding his, a lot of which wasn't and some of which was his fault. It's even more stupid to take some random number like nine and decide who is a better player after "random number" games in two different seasons on two different teams looking only at some stats in retrospect. That's perhaps more stupid than the total tonnage of stupidity that has come out of Terrel Owens in his entire career. It tells you next to nothing.

 

The only thing even more stupid may be me, for actually taking the time to argue with you.

 

Anyone have any rope?

[justnzane]

No, I am saying it's ridiculous to ask how your freshmen year went after the first semester and before the second. Losman IMO hasn't finished his first year of playing yet.

 

Anyone have any rope?

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I have the rope. But you are right in saying that at this point only JDG and HA here are crusading against JP like many of us have for RJ and DB to get $hitcanned.

[JDG]

No, I am saying it's ridiculous to ask how your freshman year went after the first semester and before the second. Losman IMO hasn't finished his first year of playing yet. 

 

But why one year and not two - or as the case of Drew Brees may indicate, three?

 

JDG

[Kelly the Dog]

But why one year and not two - or as the case of Drew Brees may indicate, three?

 

JDG

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BECAUSE, MORON, YOU ONLY ASKED ME ABOUT HIS FIRST SEASON IN THE POST OF YOURS THAT I REPLIED TO.

 

You asked me what I thought about Losman's first season, and I responded that I don't think he's finished it yet. He hasn't played a whole season yet, not sixteen games, not sixteen starts, in three years let alone one year. And if he doesn't have one full year, I don't think he has two or three.

[ieatcrayonz]

BECAUSE, MORON, YOU ONLY ASKED ME ABOUT HIS FIRST SEASON IN THE POST OF YOURS THAT I REPLIED TO.

 

You asked me what I thought about Losman's first season, and I responded that I don't think he's finished it yet. He hasn't played a whole season yet, not sixteen games, not sixteen starts, in three years let alone one year. And if he doesn't have one full year, I don't think he has two or three.

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How do you think he'll do in his fourth year? Can you compare it to Dave Krieg's 11th year and prove that Losman was a bad draft choice?

 

If not, are you aware that in late games his completion percentage is less than the % of Cicada's born every 7th year after a lunar eclipse?

 

Have you taken that into account?

[Kelly the Dog]

How do you think he'll do in his fourth year?  Can you compare it to Dave Krieg's 11th year and prove that Losman was a bad draft choice?

 

If not, are you aware that in late games his completion percentage is less than the % of Cicada's born every 7th year after a lunar eclipse?

 

Have you taken that into account?

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Well from what I have seen so far, in his fourth year he will play somewhere in between the first nine games of his seventh year and the last nine games of his ninth year.

[ieatcrayonz]

Well from what I have seen so far, in his fourth year he will play somewhere in between the first nine games of his seventh year and the last nine games of his ninth year.

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Just as I figured.

 

You completely ignored the Cicada factor. This proves JP sucks.

[Kelly the Dog]

Just as I figured.

 

You completely ignored the Cicada factor.  This proves JP sucks.

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He completely sucks, excluding all those times when he doesn't suck. But he will never be a totally different quarterback at a different age on a different team in a different city with different teammates and coaches playing different styles and gameplans against different teams in different seasons. That's my point.

[JDG]

BECAUSE, MORON, YOU ONLY ASKED ME ABOUT HIS FIRST SEASON IN THE POST OF YOURS THAT I REPLIED TO.

 

You asked me what I thought about Losman's first season, and I responded that I don't think he's finished it yet. He hasn't played a whole season yet, not sixteen games, not sixteen starts, in three years let alone one year. And if he doesn't have one full year, I don't think he has two or three.

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I'm just curious as to why you believe that 16 games is a magic number, and why you have opinions of QB's after 16 games, but not before 16 games?

 

Are there any circumstances under which you would have any opinions at all of a QB with less than 16 starts?

 

JDG

[ieatcrayonz]

I'm just curious as to why you believe that 16 games is a magic number, and why you have opinions of QB's after 16 games, but not before 16 games?

 

Are there any circumstances under which you would have any opinions at all of a QB with less than 16 starts?

 

JDG

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If you were on a ridiculous and irrational vendetta you could use 9 or 6. Otherwise I'd stick with 16.

[Kelly the Dog]

I'm just curious as to why you believe that 16 games is a magic number, and why you have opinions of QB's after 16 games, but not before 16 games?

 

Are there any circumstances under which you would have any opinions at all of a QB with less than 16 starts?

 

JDG

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1. Ummm, because it's "a season"? Like you asked?

 

2. Yes, and I have expressed them right here, in public, repeatedly, in great detail, after watching in person, watching on TV, reading insiders and outsiders, examining stats, forming fluid opinions, considering extentuating circumstances, and then thinking and typing out my conclusions on a daily and sometimes hourly basis, several thousand times in the three years since Losman was drafted.

 

I'm surprised you missed them.

[JDG]

1. Ummm, because it's "a season"? Like you asked?

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O.k., if this is all about word games, then, let's go back to start.

 

Given the following opinion:

 

Precisely. He wasn't good. He was completely and utterly average. He reeked of mediocrity. On the field. On the scoreboard. On the stat sheet. In the eyes of the critics and fans. Except, perhaps you.

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What's your opinion of JP Losman's 9 games in the 2005 season, then?

 

JDG

[Wraith]

You actually believe that Betts performed the best of any running back in the league over the first 3 weeks?     

 

That has got to be the most ignorant thing I have ever heard. 

 

Did you actually watch the skins play.  I did, beling the local market I watch them pretty much every week, as long as it doesn't interfere with the Bills game.  Sorry but Portis outplayed Betts in the 2 games he played by far, Betts was only playing the Davis role to Thurman.  That's like saying Davis was a better back than Thurman.         

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You're just proving my point. You don't understand statistics so you are easily misled.

 

I said nothing about what I believe. I said that system ranks Betts' performance as the best after three games. We may have to add reading comprehension to your list of improvement areas.

 

Now, if you knew anything about statistics, you would know that basing any kind of decision on a small sample size such as this is foolish. A small sample size can be heavily influenced by outliers. In this case, Betts had one hell of a performance in week three, while having limited carries in the other two weeks. Over the course of a season, these outliers have less of an effect (if they really are outliers). Look at the top three running backs in 2005 using their system: Larry Johnson, Shaun Alexander, and Edgerin James. That doesn't seem to be too far fetched.

 

I could not care any less that you watched some of those games or not. It's pretty apparent from this thread alone that two people can watch the same game and come away with totally opposing viewpoints. That's because human observations are SUBJECTIVE. Statistics, done properly, are OBJECTIVE. They take human's inherent bias out of the equation.

 

The NFL has chosen to use overly simplistic statistics that do not properly describe reality. People who use those statistics without understanding the limitations of the data are just as ignorant as those that see the statistics, disagree with the supposed conclusions, and proclaim that "Statistics are for losers."

 

The fact is, if you base an entire argument upon your gut feeling, proclaiming Losman has no "football insticts" or just doesn't have "IT" without being able to quantify what the hell those terms mean, you deserve all the crap you get.

 

Just like in the real world, if you can't back up your claims with data, I have no use for you.

[Kelly the Dog]

O.k., if this is all about word games, then, let's go back to start.

 

Given the following opinion:

What's your opinion of JP Losman's 9 games in the 2005 season, then?

 

JDG

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Like I said, I have typed ad nauseum what I think about Losman and his nine games, and his three this year. If you want a cliff notes version of the thousands of posts...

 

I think he has been at times horrible, bad, average, fair, good and once in awhile great. Much more bad than good but getting better and better, and he no longer seems to play horrible or bad.

 

I think he has a great arm but hasn't been able to harness it all the way yet at all, which comes with game experience.

 

I have seen him make "all the throws" as they say, and show that he has a touch, too. But more often so far, or showing that touch, he has thrown balls with no touch at all. That too, is something than may come with experience but we don't know that for sure yet.

 

I have seen him already show terrific ball handling skills in hard to perfect things like play action and clean handoffs and fakes, and bootlegs, etc. Something Marino couldn't do in his entire career. And have also seen him just fall down or lose the ball backpedaling when no one hits him. I have seen him careless with the ball and fumble too much when hit. That also will likely go away with experience in games over time but it has severely harmed his overall play so far and it happens far too much.

 

I have seen him throw gorgeous bombs numerous times. I have seen him throw it practically out of the stadium. I have seen him throw darts on the run while rolling out without losing stride with tremendous accuracy. I have seen him throw the ball with great velocity and accuracy while rolling to his left which is extremely difficult, and there may be one or two QBs in the entire league that can do that. In fact, I don't know of one that can throw so hard without turning his body and slowing down. It's a downright amazing thing to see. On the other hand, I have seen him throw dozens of passes right into the dirt with no pressure and an open reciever. Those passes are getting much more infrequent the more he plays. I attributed them to being jittery and nervous rather than being inaccurate. QBs will always make some bad throws. The great QBs will make only 1-2-3 a game. He is nowhere close to being there yet at all but his accuracy is continually improving. It's not where it needs to be. It should be by the end of this year IMO.

 

I have seen him with terror in his eyes, totally in over his head, and unable to do even the simplest of things. That was last year, when things were falling apart in front of him and he wasn't able to handle it. Those days are gone for good, IMO, due to experience and another year in the league. He will still have bad games but he won't panic like he did in games 2-4 last year.

 

I have seen him show great wheels, good running ability, terrific scrambling ability, at times a great knack for escape, a willingness to lower his head, a nose for the goalline like last week. I have also seen him scramble at the worst times, be careless by and in his own endzone, try to make too much out of a play when the chances are slim. He should learn and I predict he will learn when to do it and when not to do it. I fear he will always make some bonehead decisions scrambling no matter how much experience he has.

 

I have seen him look like a star, look like he has total command of the offense, like his teammates are behind him and look like a potential stud. I have also seen him look totally stupid, lost, ill-equipped, unprepared and in too deep. That is still happening but less. It may or may not turn him from what he is to what he could be. The jury is still out on that.

 

I have yet to see him just win a game all by himself. I have yet to see him make the one play he needs to make that is a W in the books. I have yet to see him lead the perfect come from behind last second march down the field to victory. Some guys have a knack for that. I have yet to see him take the team on his back. He has yet to show it. It is my hope that he has it in him. I am not sure.

 

I have seen him do and say all the right things. I have seen him work extremely hard. I have seen him take responsibility for his mistakes. I have seen him get on his teammates when he felt he needed to. I have seen him gain respect of his coaches and fellow Bills. I have seen him try his damndest to get better. You cannot teach all of that. It's a good start. I have also seen him let his emotions get the best of him far too many times. He cannot continue to do that. I think that comes with experience, too.

 

He has a chance to be great. Really great. All it is is a chance, but there are very few quarterbacks in the entire league, even all time greats, that have the toolset this guy has. He has it all. Literally. There isn't a weakness in his physical game as far as I can tell. He has a rocket for an arm. He has great running ability. He can make touch passes. He can play in bad elements. He can throw with remarkable velocity and accuracy on the run. He can ball-handle. He has the fire in his belly. He has the work ethic. He has decent size. He understands the position and the game, and his responsibilities. he has shown he can read defenses. He is not dumb. He has the flair for the dramatic and spectacular. And he loves Buffalo. So I have hope. He doesn't do anything great yet though. He is not even a very good quarterback yet. He's rather average. But his kind of "5" is a 9-0-10-1, which, to me, is much better than most player's "5's" which are 3-5-7-5. If he eliminates some of the 1's, and turns them into 5's and 6's he could be special.

[BuffOrange]

Kelly,

I think the vast majority of fans would agree with that assessment; including those who aren't "JP guys" such as myself. It's pretty incredible how many perceived differences really come down to semantics - the internet has a way of doing that.

 

I really don't understand these comparisons to other QB's. Plenty of great QB's stunk early in their careers and even more bad QB's stunk early and never improved. Whatever, it means about nothing as far as predicting what JP will become. I find the Eli Manning optimistic comparison posts especially useless, since Eli is an average QB at this point IMO (I'd say he'd be below average without the clutch plays vs. Philly & Denver last year). I guess if JP reaches Eli's level this year I'll take it, but ultimately I want him to be better than that.

 

Getting back to the semantics (because sadly that's what these threads are usually about)....I don't understand the vile intense hatred for "JP haters". Maybe JG&HA can correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't read and I don't think anyone doesn't want him to start this year. They're just not optimistic based on the available evidence - what's the big deal? You may think they go overboard sometimes, and maybe they do in providing slanted views. But for anyone who has an objective 'wait & see' approach to JP, is it really more annoying than the: "I'm going to be the tard this week haha look at me I'm funny" threads or the incredibly widespread "our 150yd rusher sucks because he missed a block" stuff? I can't see how any rational avid reader of the boards can't clearly see that it's getting to the point where a lot of people want to throw the rest of the team under the bus to defend JP, which was annoying during the Midget years but really inexplicable now since there's no QB controversy and we all want JP to succeed.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Kelly,

I think the vast majority of fans would agree with that assessment; including those who aren't "JP guys" such as myself.  It's pretty incredible how many perceived differences really come down to semantics - the internet has a way of doing that.

 

I really don't understand these comparisons to other QB's.  Plenty of great QB's stunk early in their careers and even more bad QB's stunk early and never improved.  Whatever, it means about nothing as far as predicting what JP will become.  I find the Eli Manning optimistic comparison posts especially useless, since Eli is an average QB at this point IMO (I'd say he'd be below average without the clutch plays vs. Philly & Denver last year).  I guess if JP reaches Eli's level this year I'll take it, but ultimately I want him to be better than that.

 

Getting back to the semantics (because sadly that's what these threads are usually about)....I don't understand the vile intense hatred for "JP haters".  Maybe JG&HA can correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't read and I don't think anyone doesn't want him to start this year.  They're just not optimistic based on the available evidence - what's the big deal?  You may think they go overboard sometimes, and maybe they do in providing slanted views.  But for anyone who has an objective 'wait & see' approach to JP, is it really more annoying than the: "I'm going to be the tard this week haha look at me I'm funny" threads or the incredibly widespread "our 150yd rusher sucks because he missed a block" stuff?  I can't see how any rational avid reader of the boards can't clearly see that it's getting to the point where a lot of people want to throw the rest of the team under the bus to defend JP, which was annoying during the Midget years but really inexplicable now since there's no QB controversy and we all want JP to succeed.

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It's the "whoah, get ready for Brady Quinn" posts, and "Losman does not have the tools" posts, and "he is not an NFL quarterback" posts, and the "he sucked this week, so he will never get better" posts, the stuff that is about as far from "let's wait and see" as can be -- that's the sh-- that gets annoying. As if we're a QB away from the Super Bowl and JP's play is all that's holding the team back. It's the kind of mentality that has had this team out of the playoffs for years. No patience for growth, all reactionary decisions that have hurt this team in the long run.

 

Losman supporters and those who want to believe probably play right into it (myself included) by trying to defend all the time. I just think the jury is still out and it might just be best to leave it at that for awhile. I feel like the team is being managed by capable hands. I like the tack Jauron is taking -- one of patient yet stern guidance, with an emphasis on mistake-free football. They'll know whether or not JP continues to deserve a chance, or has "made it" to the next level in their eyes. That's all that matters.

 

BTW to KTFABD: great post as usual.