JDG Posted September 27, 2006 Posted September 27, 2006 Talking to the furniture again, huh? 788761[/snapback] Maybe someday you'll graduate from being dumber than a doorknob to maybe being the whole door....
JDG Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 Again, it's actually funny. You still manipulate the numbers by only using pass yards and complete percentage to compare quarterbacks while neglecting other stats. As I mentioned before, QB rating includes more stats than pass yards and complete percentage. And reduces everything to a single number. Maybe you find that the be-all and end-all, but I prefer to look at a bigger picture. As for other factors, there isn't too much difference in this time period in terms of TD to INT ratio or really in Yards per Attempt (although Brees is a bit better there as well if you want to push it), so I'm not bringing up stats that don't highlight much of a difference. Speaking of QB rating, do you realize it is used commonly to summon quarterback performance over certain number of games? Just go to ESPN or NFL.COM, you'll find QB ratings of 3 games this year or QB rating of each quarterback last season. I agree that it is a tool, just not the be all and end all you make it out to be. And what weight factors are you talking about? Not including the QBs who started in their season? I believe I have mentioned that including these QBs who mostly had bad games as a rookies will only make Losman look good. Or are you talking about "quality game" definition? I don't think you want to include the games when a young QB comes in to play a series or two when the starters need a breath. 788753[/snapback] I am speaking of the fact that the NFL QB rating combines Completion Percentage, Yards Per Attempt, TD Pass Percentage, and INT Pass Percentage. Who decided that TD Pass Percentage counts the same as Yards Per Attempt, and not half as much or twice as much? That factor is completely arbitrary, and IMHO, needlessly biases in favor of QB's that are asked to pass in the red zone more frequently vs. QB's on teams that prefer to pound the ball in the red zone. JDG
syhuang Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 Since your problem is not agreeing on QB rating formula, I can not help you on this. As I already mentioned in my original post, QB rating is not perfect. However, it is widely used in NFL, media, and every sports website to compare quarterbacks. And reduces everything to a single number. Maybe you find that the be-all and end-all, but I prefer to look at a bigger picture. As for other factors, there isn't too much difference in this time period in terms of TD to INT ratio or really in Yards per Attempt (although Brees is a bit better there as well if you want to push it), so I'm not bringing up stats that don't highlight much of a difference.I agree that it is a tool, just not the be all and end all you make it out to be. I am speaking of the fact that the NFL QB rating combines Completion Percentage, Yards Per Attempt, TD Pass Percentage, and INT Pass Percentage. Who decided that TD Pass Percentage counts the same as Yards Per Attempt, and not half as much or twice as much? That factor is completely arbitrary, and IMHO, needlessly biases in favor of QB's that are asked to pass in the red zone more frequently vs. QB's on teams that prefer to pound the ball in the red zone. JDG 788806[/snapback]
Kelly the Dog Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 All you need to know about Brees is that it took him until his fourth year until he was any good. And his own team didn't even want him. In the middle of his third year, he was benched for 41 year old Doug Flutie, he of the nine game losing streak coming in.
JDG Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 All you need to know about Brees is that it took him until his fourth year until he was any good. And his own team didn't even want him. In the middle of his third year, he was benched for 41 year old Doug Flutie, he of the nine game losing streak coming in. 788812[/snapback] So you are saying that Brees was "not any good" in his second year? JDG
JDG Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 Since your problem is not agreeing on QB rating formula, I can not help you on this. As I already mentioned in my original post, QB rating is not perfect. However, it is widely used in NFL, media, and every sports website to compare quarterbacks. 788808[/snapback] And I can't help you if you won't respond substantively to any other method of comparing QB's than aggregate QB rating. But if QB rating is all you will listen to, then maybe you will listen to this: First Twelve Games: Games with 100+ QB Ratings: Losman - 2 (124 and 102) Brees - 2 (137 and 110). Games with sub-40 QB Ratings: Losman - 3 (33.8, 34.0, 33.6) Brees - 0 (lowest were 41.5 and 58.7, with a 40.6 game in his 13th game) JDG
Kelly the Dog Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 So you are saying that Brees was "not any good" in his second year? JDG 788819[/snapback] Precisely. He wasn't good. He was completely and utterly average. He reeked of mediocrity. On the field. On the scoreboard. On the stat sheet. In the eyes of the critics and fans. Except, perhaps you. The team was 8-8, tied for last in the division. The least points in the division. He threw for 17 TDs and 16 INTs. A full third of his completions were to his backs, of which he had the best in the league. He had a four game win streak to start and a four game losing streak to end. And he celebrated the end of the season by kissing his sister. Then the next year he progressed so well that he was benched by the most conservative coach in the league for a washed up 41 year-old mulleted midget in a slump.
VABills Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 And I can't help you if you won't respond substantively to any other method of comparing QB's than aggregate QB rating. But if QB rating is all you will listen to, then maybe you will listen to this: First Twelve Games: Games with 100+ QB Ratings: Losman - 2 (124 and 102) Brees - 2 (137 and 110). Games with sub-40 QB Ratings: Losman - 3 (33.8, 34.0, 33.6) Brees - 0 (lowest were 41.5 and 58.7, with a 40.6 game in his 13th game) JDG 788825[/snapback] But what were the DVAP, BSPAM, and ETGR ratings in those games. You know those are much better stats because they consider the number of hangnails, time he picked his nose and actually fart decibel level during the game.
syhuang Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 If you want to use QB rating, you need to understand that it's use to summon performance over certain number of games. You need to summon all game in a period together instead of looking at individual games separately. Of course, you don't believe QB rating. BTW, I study more stats than QB rating, and you must have seen I used DVOA and DPAR in this thread. I want to bring up these stas, but I still can not help you to accept these advanced methods. And I can't help you if you won't respond substantively to any other method of comparing QB's than aggregate QB rating. But if QB rating is all you will listen to, then maybe you will listen to this: First Twelve Games: Games with 100+ QB Ratings: Losman - 2 (124 and 102) Brees - 2 (137 and 110). Games with sub-40 QB Ratings: Losman - 3 (33.8, 34.0, 33.6) Brees - 0 (lowest were 41.5 and 58.7, with a 40.6 game in his 13th game) JDG 788825[/snapback]
syhuang Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 It's not a surprise that this statement comes from a person who only uses observation and his observation is wrong. But what were the DVAP, BSPAM, and ETGR ratings in those games. You know those are much better stats because they consider the number of hangnails, time he picked his nose and actually fart decibel level during the game. 788829[/snapback]
VABills Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 If you want to use QB rating, you need to understand that it's use to summon performance over certain number of games. You need to summon all game in a period together instead of looking at individual games separately. Of course, you don't believe QB rating. BTW, I study more stats than QB rating, and you must have seen I used DVOA and DPAR in this thread. I want to bring up these stas, but I still can not help you to accept these advanced methods. 788834[/snapback] Yup, the same "stats" that say Lidell Betts is the best running back in the league.
syhuang Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 Do you study sabermetrics today? Yup, the same "stats" that say Lidell Betts is the best running back in the league. 788837[/snapback]
JDG Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 If you want to use QB rating, you need to understand that it's use to summon performance over certain number of games. You need to summon all game in a period together instead of looking at individual games separately. Shirley, you can't be serious.... Of course, you don't believe QB rating. 788834[/snapback] No, I just don't believe in you... JDG
syhuang Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 Making personal attacks doesn't make you right. The only tool I used is QB rating. If you want to discuss QB rating rationally, you're welcome. Please then explain where my comparison is wrong if QB rating is acceptable. No, I just don't believe in you... JDG 788845[/snapback]
JDG Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 Precisely. He wasn't good. He was completely and utterly average. He reeked of mediocrity. On the field. On the scoreboard. On the stat sheet. In the eyes of the critics and fans. Except, perhaps you. 788828[/snapback] So, how would you describe Losman's first season, then? JDG
Kelly the Dog Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 So, how would you describe Losman's first season, then? JDG 788851[/snapback] 51.4% incomplete.
JDG Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 Making personal attacks doesn't make you right. The only tool I used is QB rating. If you want to discuss QB rating rationally, you're welcome. Please then explain where my comparison is wrong if QB rating is acceptable. 788847[/snapback] First, I don't think you are right that the QB rating tool should not be used for single-game performances. It seems to me that it is used for single-game performances all the time. At the very least, perhaps you could explain why you only consider aggregate QB rating, and not comparing single-game performances? Secondly, perhaps you can explain why you won't consider any other measures of QB performance, but view *aggregate* QB rating as trumping all of them? JDG
JDG Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 51.4% incomplete. 788856[/snapback] So, you're saying that while you could write several sentences describing Drew Brees' first season, you feel that you cannot say anything meaningful about JP Losman's first season because he got benched? Is that accurate? JDG
syhuang Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 This is better, we're now on something. For your question, I mentioned earlier, counting a game when a quarterback comes in for one or two series to give the starting qb a breath is not a good measurement. So, how would you describe Losman's first season, then? JDG 788851[/snapback]
syhuang Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 First, I don't think you are right that the QB rating tool should not be used for single-game performances. It seems to me that it is used for single-game performances all the time. At the very least, perhaps you could explain why you only consider aggregate QB rating, and not comparing single-game performances? The main reason not to look individual game is that there's no standard way to do it. Some may only look at certain stats and the other use others. This is when the aggregate QB rating comes in. It's like using VORP to compare baseball players. Secondly, perhaps you can explain why you won't consider any other measures of QB performance, but view *aggregate* QB rating as trumping all of them?JDG 788859[/snapback] I never say I won't accept other measures. I even bring up DOVA and DPAR.
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