Kelly the Dog Posted September 24, 2006 Share Posted September 24, 2006 If he wasn't in the middle of throwing the ball I'd agree with you. Being blindsided on the second one, in the middle of throwing the ball, is going to result in a fumble everytime. There's simply no avoiding it. On the first one he should have never cocked the ball back to throw it in the first place. 784986[/snapback] That's kind of what I am saying. On either one, he was hit from behind, and you can make excuses for either of them. To me, however, you cannot make excuses for turning the ball over twice when hit from behind. It lost the game. He's got to not cough it up on one of them. One is excusable. two is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted September 24, 2006 Share Posted September 24, 2006 Fine, I can go along with that. Do you honestly think a non-negligable percentage of people on this board share this evaluation of him on this game though? I mostly see people berating our RB, coaches, the weather, and using Carson Palmer's poor 4 TD performance against the defending champs on the road to justify JP's poor play. 784995[/snapback] Not reasonable people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted September 24, 2006 Share Posted September 24, 2006 That's kind of what I am saying. On either one, he was hit from behind, and you can make excuses for either of them. To me, however, you cannot make excuses for turning the ball over twice when hit from behind. It lost the game. He's got to not cough it up on one of them. One is excusable. two is not. 784997[/snapback] Well, on the first one JP saw the blitz, moved to his right to avoid it and then cocked his arm back when he knew there was a guy behind him. That's why I'd blame that one on JP. It's not really an issue of, "he can have one, but not two" it's a decision making issue on the first one while the second one can't be placed on his shoulder's at all Imo. The angriest I was all game was on that first fumble. It was just a horrible decision and one that a QB, no matter how young, should make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted September 24, 2006 Share Posted September 24, 2006 Even when he's blindsided, he's got to protect the ball. The fumbles are squarely on Losman, either way, and he needs to be coached to protect the ball better. That is, of course, in addition to fixing the bigger issue of piss-poor blocking. Was Mike Williams out there again today? 784960[/snapback] See this is where i disagree. If JP had been stripped of the ball, then its his fault for not protecting the ball. But on both of those plays, JP fumbled after being wrecked. The first fumble, the onyl mistake was maybe cocking to throw. Perhaps when hes got more experience, and a better feel of the pocket, he'll feel the rush and not attempt to pass. But if someone has chipped the blitzer even the slightest, JP gets that throw off. On the second fumble, Willis did an excellent impersonation of a matador in letting the blitzer pass him. JP got destroyed and thus fumbled. On the INT, it was a dumbass decision, and a poor throw. That play was his fault and he should have been smacked for making it. All in all, JP played decent, threw the ball well, and looked good. The mistakes he made are mistakes i expect him to make throughout the course of the season. Some boneheaded plays, and trying to make plays when he shouldnt. But nothing i have seen tells me that these mistakes arent anything more that JP going through growing pains as a QB. I'm sorry for the logic in this post, and the lack of my absolute stance on one side or the other of an issue. I know those types of posts dont sit well here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted September 24, 2006 Share Posted September 24, 2006 Well, on the first one JP saw the blitz, moved to his right to avoid it and then cocked his arm back when he knew there was a guy behind him. That's why I'd blame that one on JP. It's not really an issue of, "he can have one, but not two" it's a decision making issue on the first one while the second one can't be placed on his shoulder's at all Imo. The angriest I was all game was on that first fumble. It was just a horrible decision and one that a QB, no matter how young, should make. 785004[/snapback] When you're a quarterback, in a tight game, you cannot fumble twice and throw an INT. You can't do it. It doesn't matter if you are hit from behind or not. Again, mistakes are excusable. Several mistakes are not. Surely the one fumble was worse than the other. My point is only that he has to find a way to NOT fumble one of those two plays. This team can survive one TO. It has a chance to survive two. It is almost impossible to survive three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie2times Posted September 24, 2006 Author Share Posted September 24, 2006 There is a clear possiblity that a player can have a crappy game, and even be responsible for the loss, and yet show clear signs that he is improving and "getting it". They are not mutually exclusive, nor do you have to be a JP apologist for saying that there were a lot of things to be happy about watching that game. 784979[/snapback] That’s all my original point was. To add to that most young QB's that make it seem to hit a point in there development when production is strong but turnovers remain high. JP hasn't even reached that point in his development yet. He's appeared to play up tight and over cautious football, which limits turnovers but hurts accuracy and production. So when he lets loose like he did today, and some turnovers result, I can feel good in saying at least his production went way up. Without that increase then we should really start to worry. If people want to simplify it to it means nothing we still lost then so be it. It's probably the same people that thought we had a chance at the playoffs after week 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted September 24, 2006 Share Posted September 24, 2006 That’s all my original point was. To add to that most young QB's that make it seem to hit a point in there development when production is strong but turnovers remain high. JP hasn't even reached that point in his development yet. He's appeared to play up tight and over cautious football, which limits turnovers but hurts accuracy and production. So when he lets loose like he did today, and some turnovers result, I can feel good in saying at least his production went way up. Without that increase then we should really start to worry. If people want to simplify it to it means nothing we still lost then so be it. It's probably the same people that thought we had a chance at the playoffs after week 2. 785013[/snapback] I'm ok with that. You're right - 3 turnovers with 90 yards would be a problem, but at least he made some plays. The last drive was just baffling to me - I thought he showed much more poise in the clutch vs. Carolina last year (his 4th down sideline throw was on target then) even though he ultimately was picked on that drive. Playoffs....playoffs? I just hope we can win another game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted September 24, 2006 Share Posted September 24, 2006 I know! JP should have been able to block those 2 blitzers that blindsided him causing him to fumble! The INT was his fault, it was a poor decision and poor throw. To blame the fumbles on him is assinine and myopic. 784730[/snapback] Jauron placed the blame for the 1st fumble on him, but the 2nd one was on Willis. JP needs to expect he has blindside protection, but it wasn't there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted September 24, 2006 Share Posted September 24, 2006 Again, mistakes are excusable. Several mistakes are not. 785010[/snapback] This is really my point. It's not a "mistake" if he fumbles the ball because he's in the middle of a throw and he's blindsided from the backside because his RB doesn't pick up the blitz. There's nothing he could do about it. It WAS a mistake with the first fumble (as was the INT) as it was a decision making issue that caused each of these turnovers. Perhaps it’s just me but I don’t consider something a “mistake” when a player has no control over what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in San Diego Posted September 24, 2006 Share Posted September 24, 2006 JP had a good game, far better than I would have thought. The biggest problem is he can't be perfect and with this team and these fans, apparently he has to be perfect. Bad pocket presense, as asserted by some fans, implies that he had a pocket to work in. Bottom line with this game. When the Jets wanted it, their lines got it. Whether pressure on JP or the first down run, they got it. And conversely our lines couldn't do anything when needed. 784741[/snapback] I thought the OL played a pretty good game. The DL is a different story. They couldn't get any pressure or sacks on Penny and could not stop the Jets on that crucial game breaking 7 minute drive late in the 4th. Of course the TO's killed us as well. If we can eliminate those costly TO mistakes we can win these games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted September 24, 2006 Share Posted September 24, 2006 This is really my point. It's not a "mistake" if he fumbles the ball because he's in the middle of a throw and he's blindsided from the backside because his RB doesn't pick up the blitz. There's nothing he could do about it. It WAS a mistake with the first fumble (as was the INT) as it was a decision making issue that caused each of these turnovers. Perhaps it’s just me but I don’t consider something a “mistake” when a player has no control over what happened. 785022[/snapback] I agree with that. But a fumble is a turnover and mistake. Whether or not it is excusable or a player's fault is very arguable. The one you refer to I don't blame on Losman. My point is that it didn't matter which of the plays he was able to hang onto the ball on, the tough one or the not as tough one, he needs to hang onto one of them. It doesn't matter which. we can endure or survive one, we cannot endure or survive two. Especially with an INT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxxer Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 See this is where i disagree. If JP had been stripped of the ball, then its his fault for not protecting the ball. But on both of those plays, JP fumbled after being wrecked. The first fumble, the onyl mistake was maybe cocking to throw. Perhaps when hes got more experience, and a better feel of the pocket, he'll feel the rush and not attempt to pass. But if someone has chipped the blitzer even the slightest, JP gets that throw off. On the second fumble, Willis did an excellent impersonation of a matador in letting the blitzer pass him. JP got destroyed and thus fumbled. On the INT, it was a dumbass decision, and a poor throw. That play was his fault and he should have been smacked for making it. All in all, JP played decent, threw the ball well, and looked good. The mistakes he made are mistakes i expect him to make throughout the course of the season. Some boneheaded plays, and trying to make plays when he shouldnt. But nothing i have seen tells me that these mistakes arent anything more that JP going through growing pains as a QB. I'm sorry for the logic in this post, and the lack of my absolute stance on one side or the other of an issue. I know those types of posts dont sit well here. 785009[/snapback] Great post Ramius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Poojer Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 of course you are exxagerating, my problem with losman is his bledsoe-like pocket presence, he has to feel the heat...maybe that is something that comes with experience....hopefully I know! JP should have been able to block those 2 blitzers that blindsided him causing him to fumble! The INT was his fault, it was a poor decision and poor throw. To blame the fumbles on him is assinine and myopic. 784730[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 of course you are exxagerating, my problem with losman is his bledsoe-like pocket presence, he has to feel the heat...maybe that is something that comes with experience....hopefully 785286[/snapback] see my second post in this thread, the one luisima quoted. its more thought out and descriptive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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