Not sold on JP until...

[finknottle]

Would you grant him a learning curve?  He may be capable of doing that to lesser opposition today but you cannot 'know' it until the opportunity presents itself.  What you are requesting of him is tantamount to him being a top 10 QB and if he keeps progressing, he may get there.  JP seems to get better on an incremental basis, not by leaps and bounds.  This suggests that fans might have to exhibit some patience with him, admitedly a difficult task for some.

781023[/snapback]

 

The opportunity hasn't presented itself? I must have been watching a different franchise the past two years, because I remember a game or two where we were behind in the fourth quarter. What about the NE game - wouldn't it have been nice to see a long drive then?

 

All the poster is asking for is for that first decisive fourth quarter drive for JP, a "statement" drive. Doing it once does not require you be a top 10 qb.

[John from Riverside]

Thats cool....you are looking for a special moment before you are sold...

 

But it is important to keep in mind for that to happen:

 

OL must block

WR must catch

[MadBuffaloDisease]

Thats cool....you are looking for a special moment before you are sold...

 

But it is important to keep in mind for that to happen:

 

OL must block

WR must catch

Not to mention:

 

Other players must not commit fouls

Refs must not call bogus penalties

 

Again JP converted that 3rd down play to Peerless against the Pats, only to see it wiped-out by a penalty on Royal. That play got to the Pats' 38-yard line, there was 6:28 left on the game clock, and the Bills had a fresh set of downs to move at least 5 yards to get into Lindell's FG range. Sure they passed on the ensuing play and JP was sacked, but you only get so many chances against a defense like that, on the road.

 

And JP will air it out when he needs to do so. So far he hasn't.

[Mikie2times]

This place is about as bipolar as it gets. I remember a time not to long ago when you would get destroyed for saying anything bad about Willis. I know because I got destroyed for saying something bad about Willis. JP is coming off a HORRIBLE year, I say that because he has shown a great deal of improvement, but it's still a great deal of improvement off a horrible year. He's young, his future is looking much better then last season, but the original comments of this thread were far from unreasonable. A game winning drive would be a huge step toward his development.

[finknottle]

This place is about as bipolar as it gets. I remember a time not to long ago when you would get destroyed for saying anything bad about Willis. I know because I got destroyed for saying something bad about Willis. JP is coming off a HORRIBLE year, I say that because he has shown a great deal of improvement, but it's still a great deal of improvement off a horrible year. He's young, his future is looking much better then last season, but the original comments of this thread were far from unreasonable. A game winning drive would be a huge step toward his development.

781135[/snapback]

 

Not just his his development - I think a statement drive will go a long way in solidifying the teams confidence in both him and themselves. When this team believes it can come back in crunch time is when we have turned the corner. Until then, we have nothing more than an improved version of the TD era teams: 50-50 at hanging on when we jump out to a quick first quarter lead, and horrible when we start off in a hole.

[beerme1]

Too late, tornado. The blind homers have already smelled the blood  .

 

781021[/snapback]

 

All right then if you want to step in and fight for him I need to know one thing first.

Are you his big brother or his little sister?

[tornado681]

All right then if you want to step in and fight for him I need to know one thing first.

Are you his big brother or his little sister? 

781302[/snapback]

 

I think the responses thus far in the thread speak for themselves. In the first post I basically said that Im not sold on JP until he makes the big 4th quarter drives. In the responses that followed a few things were said:

 

1. lay off JP, hes got a learning curve ahead of him

 

To this, I say: Are you kidding me? Hes been in the league 3 years now. Do you seriously want us to hold him by the hand and give him a pass by saying "its ok hes still learning". That would hold up the first year, and maybe the second. Thats it.

 

2. some bills fans are ridiculous - all they do is find the negative things about the W's.

 

To this, I say: Sorry I have high expectations for my team. I want JP to win games for us at some point and not just manage them. This doesnt mean that I dont want JP to win. I do. He still needs to take that next step.

 

3. he's not a top 10 QB all he needs to do is not lose

 

There are a bunch of non-top 10 QBs that come to mind that have led a bunch of game winning drives, e.q. Pennington. He has won the Jets a few games over his career but def isnt top 10 material. I want JP to do the same.

 

Finally, not one poster in this thread actually stood up against and said dont worry, JP is capable of doing this or stood up for him. They made excuses for him (e.g. learning curve, all he needs to do is manage games etc.) or made sarcastic comments but didnt say JP can and will do this. Until he does, I will remain a seller of JPs stock.

 

GO BUF and GO JP.

 

--tornado

[RuntheDamnBall]

C. Only looks at nfl.com stat tracker and not the games.

781050[/snapback]

Dude, don't knock it till you try it. I mean, it's really helped me see for myself that Losman sucks without wasting a minute watching a game.

[SACTOBILLSFAN]

I think the responses thus far in the thread speak for themselves.  In the first post I basically said that Im not sold on JP until he makes the big 4th quarter drives.  In the responses that followed a few things were said:

 

1.  lay off JP, hes got a learning curve ahead of him

 

To this, I say:  Are you kidding me?  Hes been in the league 3 years now.  Do you seriously want us to hold him by the hand and give him a pass by saying "its ok hes still learning".  That would hold up the first year, and maybe the second.  Thats it.

 

2.  some bills fans are ridiculous - all they do is find the negative things about the W's. 

 

To this, I say:  Sorry I have high expectations for my team.  I want JP to win games for us at some point and not just manage them.  This doesnt mean that I dont want JP to win.  I do.  He still needs to take that next step.

 

3.  he's not a top 10 QB all he needs to do is not lose

 

There are a bunch of non-top 10 QBs that come to mind that have led a bunch of game winning drives, e.q. Pennington.  He has won the Jets a few games over his career but def isnt top 10 material.  I want JP to do the same.

 

Finally, not one poster in this thread actually stood up against and said dont worry, JP is capable of doing this or stood up for him.  They made excuses for him (e.g. learning curve, all he needs to do is manage games etc.) or made sarcastic comments but didnt say JP can and will do this.  Until he does, I will remain a seller of JPs stock.

 

GO BUF and GO JP.

 

--tornado

781398[/snapback]

 

1. He had a coaching staff that retarded his development by playing then sitting then playing then sitting him. So last year doesn't count much against that learning curve, because he wasn't given the time to develop. Also, he broke his leg his rookie year and didn't get much in terms of practice time. You're an idiot if you think that every young QB is going to come in and go 15-0 their first year as a full time starter a la Roethlisberger, who if you remember, just managed games, and what did that get him last year? uh a super bowl i think?

 

2. High expectations or absolutely ridiculous ones? The Bills just went 1-1 to start a season on the road against divisional freaking rivals. Pretty much what I'm getting is that you'd be a seller of JPs stock even if they were 2-0 right now because he didn't lead them on a game winning drive and put up big numbers, which is exactly where we would be if we kick a FG and don't go for it on 4th and 1 in NE. Fantasy Football numbers look sexy but mean sh--, that's why its called FANTASY FOOTBALL, it doesn't take into account whether or not a team was victorious (SEE: DILFER, Trent in 2002 with Baltimore). So far we've got 2 quarterbacks that have won super bowls in the last 5 years who were not guys who put up big numbers, also Delhomme didn't put up big numbers and led his team to a SB berth and so did Brad Johnson with Tampa, by playing mistake free and letting the D dominate. But that Peyton Manning has led a lot of 4th quarter scoring drives so I'm buying his stock (for the record his stock consists of 0 rings with the most talented offense in the league).

 

3. Dilfer, B. Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Ben Roethlisberger - 4 SB berths and 2 rings. Whereas, Manning, McNabb, Trent Green, Vick who put up sexy stats have one SB berth and count em 0 rings. What I'm getting at is football is a team game. Right now JP is being put into a role where he needs to score some points without risking a ton because the defense is strangling opposing offenses. He's coming along nicely which will help when we do need him to march down the field to win a game.

 

Finally, when has JP been in a position to lead a game winning drive? Last year he was jerked around and we were getting our asses handed to us most of the time, with a coaching staff that could barely tie their shoes let alone put together a winning game plan that would allow JP to show what hes made of in the 4th qtr. And this season we've played 2 games. Selling JPs stock right now with very little feedback on the product is like selling microsoft stock because they PC didn't catch on immediately. So lets see JP get put into a situation where he needs to lead a game winning drive before we say he can't do it. Also, that first opportunity he gets, he may fail, but I don't remember even the greatest comeback kids like Elway and Montana succeeding every time, and if i wasn't dog tired i'd go and show you stats that illustrate that when they were young they weren't leading game winning drives every week. Right now I'm holding my JP stock while accumulating capital to buy a huge share as soon as I get a little more product feedback this season, because from what i see as an "investor" the kid has all the tools to be a very very good investment.

[Orton's Arm]

Not to mention:

 

Other players must not commit fouls

Refs must not call bogus penalties

 

Again JP converted that 3rd down play to Peerless against the Pats, only to see it wiped-out by a penalty on Royal.  That play got to the Pats' 38-yard line, there was 6:28 left on the game clock, and the Bills had a fresh set of downs to move at least 5 yards to get into Lindell's FG range.  Sure they passed on the ensuing play and JP was sacked, but you only get so many chances against a defense like that, on the road.

 

And JP will air it out when he needs to do so.  So far he hasn't.

781131[/snapback]

You know, the same thing happened last year when the Bills went to New England. It was late in the game, the Bills were behind, and Holcomb had just completed a pass to Moulds for a first down deep in New England territory. But that pass was wiped out by a bogus penalty on Moulds, thereby turning 1st and 10 into 4th and 11. We all know what happened on that 4th and 11 play. But did Losman's supporters say, "you only get so many chances against a defense like that, on the road"? No!

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

1.  lay off JP, hes got a learning curve ahead of him

 

To this, I say:  Are you kidding me?  Hes been in the league 3 years now.  Do you seriously want us to hold him by the hand and give him a pass by saying "its ok hes still learning".  That would hold up the first year, and maybe the second.  Thats it.

781398[/snapback]

People should stop saying this. Quarterbacks improve by LIVE GAME ACTION, not by sitting around on the bench. Yes, a year or two as a backup can sometimes better prepare a guy to come in and start than starting as a rookie, but not to the point where you can expect to be able to lean on him to win games for you. The truth is that you SHOULD still expect to have to hold his hand. Hopefully by the end of the year that won't be the case, but for about the first 6-8 games of the year there's no shame in JP still needing to be pampered. He just doesn't have the live experience to be comfortable back there yet.

 

This is especially true because of the new coaching staff. Here's a guy who, with limited experience, was fighting to get used to the game the way Mularkey & Co. did it. Then you go and bring in a completely new staff and a completely new system, and you expect the kid to not be overwhelmed! He needs more exposure to this system, and more exposure to live game action before we can ask whether or not we should still be holding his hand...because right now the answer to that question is a resounding "yes."

[MadBuffaloDisease]

Finally, not one poster in this thread actually stood up against and said dont worry, JP is capable of doing this or stood up for him.

Actually, I did.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

You know, the same thing happened last year when the Bills went to New England.  It was late in the game, the Bills were behind, and Holcomb had just completed a pass to Moulds for a first down deep in New England territory.  But that pass was wiped out by a bogus penalty on Moulds, thereby turning 1st and 10 into 4th and 11.  We all know what happened on that 4th and 11 play.  But did Losman's supporters say, "you only get so many chances against a defense like that, on the road"?  No!

I remember everyone complaining about the calls in that game. What everyone took issue with was Holcomb throwing a 3-yard pass on 4th and 11 instead of taking a deep shot.

 

But again, with Holcomb, what you see is what you get. He's a finished book at this point.

[ganesh]

Finally, not one poster in this thread actually stood up against and said dont worry, JP is capable of doing this or stood up for him.  They made excuses for him (e.g. learning curve, all he needs to do is manage games etc.) or made sarcastic comments but didnt say JP can and will do this.  Until he does, I will remain a seller of JPs stock.

781398[/snapback]

 

Fair enough. I don't think anyone is pumping their chest and saying that JP is going to be the QB of the future. I agree JP should be able to lead this team

back while trailing etc. All most of the JP-Bandwagoners are clamoring is that

the guy be given a fair shot at the job and to prove himself. Until both happens

(JP gets his chances and JP proves that he belongs in the NFL), we fans have to

hope for the best for our team. Go Bills.

[zow2]

Right, I agree that he has the season to show it.  What I want for him is to take his game above just "managing the game" to leading a comeback drive.  I think its OK as a fan to set a somewhat lofty, yet realistic for our QB.  Go JP.

780931[/snapback]

 

I pretty much agree with you. JP has done well so far. He has not lost a game for us. He's getting more accurate and has a better feel in the pocket than last year. Soon he will have to contribute to some victories in a big way. There will be games where our D gives up 24 - 28 points. The Bills will need offense and a passing game. I expect us to beat the Jets at home and if the running game can't get going, we should be able to pass. Even the crummy Titans were able to throw against the Jets.

 

I know some people are going to think I'm dissing JP but I'm not. I like what he's done so far. The fact is though, we need to score more TD's, not settle for FG's. Occassionally we need to throw for 200+ yards. The NFL is a cruel league sometimes. They already want Cutler in and Plummer out. In Miami they want Joey in and Duante out. They were ready to pull the plug on Bledsoe after one week. Brunnell is getting bashed all over DC, the fans want Campbell in. It's a cruel position. You have to perform.

[hootie1]

You know, this is not just an issue with JP, but the whole team. I for one am fed up with the 4th quarter fades we saw too often last year and in NE this year. It had gotten to the point that you almost expected them to find a way to lose, whether through defensive collapse or offensive futility. Flash back to the old teams of the nineties. When they were behind in the 4th quarter, you honestly knew they were going to win. That's the way I want to feel about this year's team- I want to see the killer instinct and it goes way beyond JP.

[smokinandjokin]

It was mentioned earlier in this thread about Plummer, the man in tornado's avatar. He's lead plenty of 4th quarter game winning drives. And that makes him good? That means you're 'sold' on him?

 

I've said it before, Plummer is this decade's Dave Krieg- he keeps both teams in the game. I'm sure that in many of the games he drove for 4th quarter comebacks, poor decision making by Plummer in the first 58 minutes forced him into that situation, and had them sweating out what could have been easy victories.

 

I'm not disagreeing with the general consensus of the thread. I'd like to see JP do it also. Eli Manning, in his 2nd year last year, lead several last minute drives. Eventually a team is going to have to jump on their QB's back. But I disagree in the aspect that I won't be 'sold' on him until he does it. There are 359 other functions of quarterbacking that I'm more concerned with, and if JP continues to show that he can perform well at those functions in the first 3 quarters, I see no reason why he wouldn't be able to do so in the last minutes of the game.

 

Plummer has proven that he can bounce back from a bad pick or poor decision to win the game. I'm more interested in seeing JP do that right now. We would've loved to see him drive for the FG after taking the safety, and if not for a few penalties, he may have. Last year he slumped his shoulders and hung his head after a mistake. I'd like to see a bit more of Plummer in his attitude when things do go badly.

[bills_fan]

Finally, not one poster in this thread actually stood up against and said dont worry, JP is capable of doing this or stood up for him.  They made excuses for him (e.g. learning curve, all he needs to do is manage games etc.) or made sarcastic comments but didnt say JP can and will do this.  Until he does, I will remain a seller of JPs stock.

 

Fine, can you sell some to me? I'll gladly buy. Then, when he really develops into the QB I think he's gonna be, I'll sell it back to you and happily buy the boat I've been wanting.

[tornado681]

Fine, can you sell some to me?  I'll gladly buy.  Then, when he really develops into the QB I think he's gonna be, I'll sell it back to you and happily buy the boat I've been wanting.

781703[/snapback]

 

He had his chance today. Nice pass on 4th down JP. Why didnt he scramble for the first. Im selling. I think I made my point.

[Wraith]

He had his chance today.  Nice pass on 4th down JP.  Why didnt he scramble for the first.  Im selling.  I think I made my point.

784479[/snapback]

 

Except you ignore the drive right before it in which he went 70 through the air and rain in the crucial touchdown on 4th and long to give the Bills a chance.