Peter King update on Whitner pick

[OCinBuffalo]

Again, I point back to the fact that far more DBs are taken in the first round than OLinemen.  It's not just the BILLS who do it.  Reality says you don't need to spend early choices on OLine.

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I have been saying the same thing for months now. However, I really hope for a monster(good not fat) o lineman to be drafted first or second next year. Especially a right guard. Villarial is ok but we need depth.

 

One, it will help to anchor the line - who are all fairly young and transitioning away from CV will prolly need to happen sooner than later. Bringing in a guy who has a first round o line skills should help out greatly.

Two, it will allow us to transition from Villarial without too much strife - the thing that I believe causes most of our problems. If we only change 1 guy one the o line every 2 years or so I think we will finally put an end to this nonsense.

Three, BillNYC will get to have a great day.

 

Disclaimer: The reason we, and a lot of others in the league, draft DBs high is because of their FA value, and their ability to make an near instant impact(see KO and Donte). DB FA value is way overinflated, but, nonetheless after 5 years of solid play you have to pay the piper for DBs. While it is short-sighted, o lineman do take longer to develop. I am sure that Marv is not gonna tell Bills fans:"well, we drafted for next year" anytime soon. If we do better than expected this year and are drafting in the low to mid 20s those 3-4 monster o lineman in most draft classes may already be gone. So, we may be looking for best value available. I hope not. I would love to see a underrated Kyle Williams on the O Side so that Kiper and King can tell us we reached - again!

[Alaska Darin]

Darin,  that would appear to be a direct question, but it is vague.

Are you ready to declare Joseph a bust, or even a worse player than Whittner after 2 games? Would we have still given away a pick for McCargo?

I don't mind giving away picks - one only has to look at the percentage of picks after the first round to know you're pretty much shooting in the dark.

 

I have no idea if Joseph is good. I don't remember him from college and I haven't seen him play in the NFL. I have seen Whitner play and he's one of the best rookie players I've EVER seen. You don't teach what he did on that 2 point conversion - that's a HoF type play. Not only did he flatten out, avoid a pick, and easily get to the ball, he nearly picked the damn thing off! I won't even get into the fact that he has a nose for getting to the ball carrier in the run game, and not 15 yards down the field.

 

We will obviously not know for a few years whether or not this was a good draft (unless of course you wiish to do so now), but I would have went with the extra picks (in lieu of surrendering  them) and taken Joseph.

If McCargo becomes another Tripplett (which will take another season), I doubt you'll feel the same.

 

How about you? Were you all over selecting Whittner in round 1 before the draft?

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No. I stated before that I didn't watch much college ball (except ND) and knew virtually nothing about this draft. Virtually every great defense in NFL history has had a ProBowl/HoF caliber SS (Lott, Shell, Harrison/Milloy, Reed, Polamalu, Plank, Lynch, Harris, etc).

 

I'd much rather they pick a guy who is going to be great and can play right away, both of which Whitner seems to be.

[Pyrite Gal]

Marv has stated in the past that "you can't have too many cornerbacks."

 

LA, what scares me is that Clements will walk, and Marv will take yet another 1st round DB.

Before you write this off....T. Smith, Burress, and Winfield are first round corners who walked after their contract expired.

 

Check out the resources that the Bills have devoted to the secondary, and how few they have devoted to blocking. 

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Just a note to say I really appreciated the link you provided Sunday morning to an article which lays out an examination of the both OLs from last year's SB being built through the draft. I did take a little time to look at the two other conference final teams and that their OL also had generally the same result.

 

I did not expect that result upon analysis and was impresed with it. i did not have time to say thanks Sunday as I was off to join the whole fam damily for some Bills watching and sharing my nephews 12th birthday.

 

However, though I think the stats were very good, I'm still not sure the point has much relevance to Bills decision-making regardingthe 2006 draft or what this says about TD.

 

1. Despite this draft generally being regarded as a deep one. It really suked in terms of OL talent. D'Brick looked like the best of them and no one is mistaking the best OL player in this draft for Tony Boselli or Orlando Pace. he simply is not a good enough talent to merit trading up to a point where he could be taken. The fact no other tackle penetrated the 1st round speaks to their quality.

 

When one takes into account the hole we had at SS and the hole we created at DT with our cut of Adams, the other OL players taken in he first Mangold and that G who missed the 1st game last I saw) did not offer enough talent that they made a strategy of go for Whitner and rech for McCargo (thank gosh Williams is filling this role a 1st usually fills immediately) and look to FA to build your OL, rather than take pedestruan talent with your 1st round picks and use FA for holes at SS and DT.

 

For the Bills, even if you buy the idea of drafting the best OL talent you can get, the OL talent available in this draft was not worth bottom-feeding to get other players to meer immediate needs.

 

2. The lack of OL talent in this draft does not let TD off the hook for failing to use his draft to get OL talent. However, one should not though that the reality here is not a concept problem on TD's part, but an execution one. He actually followed the BINYC line by looking to his firsts drat for OL talent. he drafted Jennings on the first day in 2001 and then MW with the #4 in 2002.

 

While he did not draft OL players in the first round every year as some might wish he did, I do not think you can call TD an OL slacker in commitng draft resources as the OL was one of only two positions where he selected a player every years that he led the draft. Sure, many were later selections (as were many of the members of the the last two SBs teams you cited), but he also spent second day but significant draft resources on Preston and the pick of Sullivan was not a add-on in where he was picked or how he was used.

 

The problem was that he even with Modrak's assessment help and with the non teaching skills of Vinky they pursued the BINYC strstegy but did a bad job of it. I do not think anyone argues that MW should be kept and the ongoing litany of JJ injuries simply gives more proof that Gangy was a far better choice than JJ at LT in real life regardless of what one's theory is.

 

3. The NC leaving fear you express is a legit one as Marv does have a history of drafting CBs. Yet, do you regret not paying what the market gave to Smith, Buriss or even Winfield for their play with their new teams? One might offer that they could have been had for less if we signed them early, but even among these three probably the best performance case for this idea is Winfield and IIRC the Bills seemed pretty set to do a deal with Winfield a year prior to his hitting FA, bu the sudden availability of Lawyer Milloy on the market and our even more legit fear that we would be going with Coy Wire as our SS made it a necessary thing to let AW play the market. Once he was in the market the Bills would have actually met the Jets price he accepted, but who knows exactly what that was for because he walked out on the non-binding verbal agreement to sign an immense singular deal with theVikes I do not think we could have matched even if we wanted to.

 

I think the great hope to alleviate this fear is that actually Marv already has a ton of CBs under contract even by his CB loving standards. Kiwaukee Thomas has now surpassed Jabari Greer on the depth charts at nickel and many Bills watchers were legitimately impressed with Greer (well at least in pre-season but he has not been able to translate that performance to regular season yet.

 

On top of these three (NcGee whom many of us see as the best CB on the roster now), Thomas and Greer, we also have the untried Youbouty (due o the death of his Mom). If we lose NC I hink we can use yet another CB, but given the4 we have if NC goes I think a second day pick or an FA will be fine.

[Bill from NYC]

1.  Despite this draft generally being regarded as a deep one. It really suked in terms of OL talent.  D'Brick looked like the best of them and no one is mistaking the best OL player in this draft for Tony Boselli or Orlando Pace.  he simply is not a good enough talent to merit trading up to a point where he could be taken. The fact no other tackle penetrated the 1st round speaks to their quality.

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D'Brick need not be Orlando Pace to warrant his early selection. How about Richmond Webb?

 

As for TD, he botched the draft in terms of the OL. It is "NOT" the BfNYC method to select a fat RT with a bad ankle with the #4. If you recall, my signature in those was "Draft McKinnie."

Jennings was a great pick. He was clearly superior to Gandy when healthy. Unfortunately, this was rarely the case.

All the rest were stiffs, castoffs, and late round vagabonds.

 

What I ask you (and especially AD) to consider is that our method of drafting didn't work. We have spent the bulk of the last 10 years in or near the cellar. We have spent our earliest picks on DBs, an injured RB, QBs (which completely goes against your much stated theory) and small wideouts.

This is great if it works, but we lost football games because of this idiocy.

 

I am always hoping for this to change. Perhaps it will, but I would love to see the Bills re-sign Nate, and forego a safety in round 1 next season due to the loss of TV.

With Levy, I am keeping my fingers crossed.

[Alaska Darin]

D'Brick need not be Orlando Pace to warrant his early selection. How about Richmond Webb?

 

As for TD, he botched the draft in terms of the OL. It is "NOT" the BfNYC method to select a fat RT with a bad ankle with the #4. If you recall, my signature in those was "Draft McKinnie."

Jennings was a great pick. He was clearly superior to Gandy when healthy. Unfortunately, this was rarely the case.   

All the rest were stiffs, castoffs, and late round vagabonds.

 

What I ask you (and especially AD) to consider is that our method of drafting didn't work. We have spent the bulk of the last 10 years in or near the cellar. We have spent our earliest picks on DBs, an injured RB, QBs (which completely goes against your much stated theory) and small wideouts.

This is great if it works, but we lost football games because of this idiocy.

 

I am always hoping for this to change. Perhaps it will, but I would love to see the Bills re-sign Nate, and forego a safety in round 1 next season due to the loss of TV.

With Levy, I am keeping my fingers crossed.

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There's alot more to it than that - but don't let it stop your crusade.

 

Like I said, there have been 25 OLineman (the vast majority are tackles) total picked in the first round in the last 5 years. That's not a large number. It's also not a "who's who" list of Pro Bowlers.

 

The fact of the matter is we've suffered from incoherent schemes and poor playcalling, which has made the OLine look far worse than it is. Right now they look decent, which is pretty cool considering we have 2 new starters, essentially a rookie QB, and a new scheme. What they need is time together.

 

Why the hell would we pick a safety in Round one next season when the two that started last week are both rookies?

[Lori]

I am always hoping for this to change. Perhaps it will, but I would love to see the Bills re-sign Nate, and forego a safety in round 1 next season due to the loss of TV.

With Levy, I am keeping my fingers crossed.

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The Clements decision has yet to be made, but the Bills already have their starting safeties for (hopefully) a long, long time -- Whitner signed a five-year deal, Simpson for four.

[In space no one can hear]

LSU's Andrew Whitworth. 

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Snap!!

[eball]

I am always hoping for this to change. Perhaps it will, but I would love to see the Bills re-sign Nate, and forego a safety in round 1 next season due to the loss of TV.

With Levy, I am keeping my fingers crossed.

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The Bills have already accounted for the loss of TV. Accounting for the loss of Clements is another matter. Hopefully Youboty learns fast.

[Typical TBD Guy]

No need for that. The mediocre O-Linemen we already have are the stars of this group.   

 

C'mon R-man, are you seriously ready (after 2 games) to deem every blocker selected after Whittner a mediocre player?

Not that you should care, but I consider your posts to be well thought, well informed, and rational. This is a stretch to say the least.

 

I didn't like this draft, but my view is certainly subject to change. Whittner looks good, and we might just have a steal in #95. This is not to overlook the players in between, but again, it is early.

 

I think that we both know that to get to the next level, the Bills will have to devote huge resources to the OL. The Vikes did, and they are looking pretty good (so far).

If this organization decides to do so at some point, I have a feeling that we will have a beer together at a home playoff game. 

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Bill, I'm with you 100% on your OL crusade. I'm convinced that this team will never make the playoffs until management starts getting serious about the OL.

 

Reyes, Fowler, Gandy - all nice guys, great backups, subpar starters. Villarial is done. Peters is good but needs more experience, and should be a LT as well. Preston, Merz, Pennington, Butler - to be determined, but given the OL drafting success of Buffalo's scouts the past 20 years...I'm not holding my breath.

 

Having said that, I'm still very happy with Marv's 1st draft and you should too. A few years from now, it may not be unreasonable to say that we scored a perfect 6 of 6 in terms of finding starters on D. Better than getting nothing, right (a la 2005 draft)?

 

Next year, I fully expect Marv to address the OL and any other roster holes. This year, we just had too many problem areas - so management decided that the defense was to be fixed first. A reasonable decision.

 

Also, it has been said many times over that the cover 2 is a defense that doesn't rely heavily on superstar CB's, and it places a greater emphasis on safeties with the athleticism and coverage skills of a CB. We kind of saw that in the 2006 draft. Moreover, we have PLENTY of cap room to sign Clements for market worth and still address other free agent needs next offseason. The only people convinced Clements is a goner are the armchair GM's of Two Bills Drive. My point being that a 1st round CB in the 2007 draft is not at all a foregone conclusion.

 

I truly believe by this December that we'll only be 4 OL and 1 DT away from a team that can go deep into the playoffs year in and year out. And those 5 positions should and could be taken care of with our day 1 picks and free agency.

[Bill from NYC]

There's alot more to it than that - but don't let it stop your crusade.

 

Like I said, there have been 25 OLineman (the vast majority are tackles) total picked in the first round in the last 5 years.  That's not a large number.  It's also not a "who's who" list of Pro Bowlers.

 

The fact of the matter is we've suffered from incoherent schemes and poor playcalling, which has made the OLine look far worse than it is.  Right now they look decent, which is pretty cool considering we have 2 new starters, essentially a rookie QB, and a new scheme.  What they need is time together.

 

Why the hell would we pick a safety in Round one next season when the two that started last week are both rookies?

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5 years AD? Are you counting this season? It takes most players a few years at any position to make the Pro Bowl, wouldn't you say? Or, should Ferguson be in the Pro Bowl right now?

 

Teams with strong lines tend to win. I think that is a safe assumption. For every team that you can name who won primarily to little wideouts and defensive backs (who walked after their initial contract), I guess that I can name a few who won because they had dominant lines.

 

But, don't let this stand in the way of your baseless agenda.

[Alaska Darin]

5 years AD? Are you counting this season? It takes most players a few years at any position to make the Pro Bowl, wouldn't you say? Or, should Ferguson be in the Pro Bowl right now? 

Doesn't change the facts, Bill. Cohesive scheme, stability, and good play at the QB position (none of which we've had) are far more important.

Teams with strong lines tend to win. I think that is a safe assumption. For every team that you can name who won primarily to little wideouts and defensive backs (who walked after their initial contract), I guess that I can name a few who won because they had dominant lines.

I'm not sure WTF you're putting on me here. I'm not against selecting offensive linemen in the draft, nor was I a fan of the Roscoe Parrish selection (I didn't have a huge problem with Lee Evans because I KNEW Moulds was in his death throws).

 

But, don't let this stand in the way of your baseless agenda.

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I'm really sorry facts bother you. At the end of the day, strong lines generally contain a mixture of Free Agents and draft choices. The Vikings, who you're enamored with, have one veteran they drafted in the sixth round about 10 years ago, one they drafted in the first the same year the BILLS picked MW, and one they drafted in the second last year. They have 2 free agents, one of whom was a first rounder (and one of only 5 guards in the last SIX drafts who can make that claim), and the other wasn't drafted at all.

 

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.

[Tcali]

On what block of granite was it chiseled in that no other team was going to draft Whittner?

 

PTR

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Exactly.

[Pirate Angel]

I believe I read an interview with marv after the draft and he said they would have liked to have traded down but there where no takers, so they took there guy anyhow

[Rockinon]

peter king should know better than to think that teams are going to tell him the truth about who they would have taken. It makes them look bad, and it makes their draft pick look like a consolation prize. Nobody tells the truth on draft day.

 

take the dolphins for example. word around the draft was that saban was in love with whitner. the fact that saban ended up taking an injured safety who scored poorly on the wonderlic and who might have a chronically bad hip suggests that he was really thinking safety there. If whitner was there, there's no doubt that the dolphins would have taken him. And because the Lions run a version of the Tampa 2, and because Whitner was the consensus #1 DB for that particular defensive approach, it stands to reason that Ernie Sims was #2 on their draft board.

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Not everybody is inclined to not tell the truth. Marv Levy said he targeted Whitner. He picked Whitner when his turn was up and now the Bills have a football player. Sounds like the truth to me

[SACTOBILLSFAN]

Not told the Bills, told King.  And I don't think it's olny what they told him after the draft.  They also talked to him beforehand.

 

This point has been beaten to death, but it all comes down to whether or not there was a risk.

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Assinine. There is ALWAYS a risk in the draft. Jim Kelly could have been Todd Blackledge. Or what about Ki-Jana Carter? Guy had a lot of talent and couldn't stay healthy to say the least. You take the player you think will best help your team win, and Marv did that. How's that Mario Williams pick looking after 2 games? I'll give you and all the other prognosticating morons a hint. It doesn't look as good as Whitner.

[Rockinon]

5 years AD? Are you counting this season? It takes most players a few years at any position to make the Pro Bowl, wouldn't you say? Or, should Ferguson be in the Pro Bowl right now? 

 

Teams with strong lines tend to win. I think that is a safe assumption. For every team that you can name who won primarily to little wideouts and defensive backs (who walked after their initial contract), I guess that I can name a few who won because they had dominant lines.

 

But, don't let this stand in the way of your baseless agenda.

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Miami has been lauded for having strong lines. What happened there?

[SilverNRed]

I believe I read an interview with marv after the draft and he said they would have liked to have traded down but there where no takers, so they took there guy anyhow

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Bottom line is you have to draft when it's your turn. I don't see how Whitner is somehow a dumb pick at 8th overall but a brilliant pick at 15th overall. If the Bills had selected all the same players either two picks earlier or two picks later, the quality of the draft doesn't change.

 

The got the player they wanted and he's playing great so far! Draft day should be all about getting the players you want, not hoarding draft picks. If the Bills draft nine players in seven rounds and none of them turns out that great, then it's a crappy draft.

 

Yes, it would be nice to trade down, pick up another draft pick, and still get all the players on your shopping list (and an extra one) but it's not easy to find another team willing to trade or knowing which teams like the same players you do and will grab your player while you're waiting for your trade-down pick to arrive.

[dave mcbride]

Miami has been lauded for having strong lines. What happened there?

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?

Miami was criticized before the season and is being criticized even more now for having a woefully untalented offensive line.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

?

Miami was criticized before the season and is being criticized even more now for having a woefully untalented offensive line.

Not true. Everyone was talking about how Hudson Houck turned the Dols' O-line into one of the NFL's best in just an off-season, when in fact it was mostly because of Gus Frerotte. Over the off-season they jettisoned JAG Damion McIntosh and replaced him with big-money and former 1st round FA LJ Shelton, which many considered an upgrade, and replaced McKinney with Bennie Anderson, who most felt would be no worse in pass protection and much better in run-blocking. Oh well.

[dave mcbride]

Darin,  that would appear to be a direct question, but it is vague.

Are you ready to declare Joseph a bust, or even a worse player than Whittner after 2 games? Would we have still given away a pick for McCargo?

 

We will obviously not know for a few years whether or not this was a good draft (unless of course you wiish to do so now), but I would have went with the extra picks (in lieu of surrendering  them) and taken Joseph.

 

How about you? Were you all over selecting Whittner in round 1 before the draft?

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bill, i think it might be a good idea to separate players - both offense and defense - into "edge" players and "gut" players. offensive linemen, tight ends, d-linemen, LBs, RBs, FBs, and safeties are gut players - guys who mix it up in the middle and both deliver and sustain multiple hits every series. WRs and CBs are edge players -- away from the action on running plays for the most part.