Alaska Darin Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 This is annoying. More than once, I explained that the only thing I'm trying to prove here is that Losman's performance against Miami wasn't as good as an average performance from Roethlisberger or Dilfer. That's it. I don't see why this is so hard for people to understand. Let me know when our supporting cast is as good, or our coaching staff as stable as Ben's has been. Jesus H. Christ, do you honestly believe your crap is realistic? Most of Losman's supporters feel his stats from last year should be thrown out the window. You, I see, feel the opposite way. Mostly because you're emotional like a woman because you want someone else to play QB. Get over it - it's not going to happen without an injury. This coaching staff understands what they have to do and they're going to do exactly that. Last year, Losman averaged 5.9 yards per attempt. This year, he's at 6.0. Pretty consistent, no? Trent Dilfer's career yards per attempt is 6.6; while Roethlisberger's is at 8.7. All I'm getting at is that Losman has yet to earn Dilfer or Roethlisberger comparisons, and that some Bills fans are getting a little overeager. 779815[/snapback] Yeah, because we shouldn't let this guy develop. Time to toss in another unaccomplished/limited veteran, so we can be mediocre forever. I swear to God, we are the luckiest fans in the world that Jim Kelly went to the USFL instead of signing with us right out of college.
JDG Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 Hey Holcombs_Arm...what were you say about Big Ben in 2004 (his rookie year, almost the same amount of time JP has had as a starter: Steelers 16, Skins 7 B.Roethlisberger 9-20-0-131 Steelers 17, Jets 6 B.Roethlisberger 9-19-2-144 Steelers 19, Bengals 14 PIT: B.Roethlisberger 15-21-0-138 Steelers 24, Browns 10 PIT: B.Roethlisberger 10-16-1-134 Are these great performances? Remember ALL the praise Big Ben got??? Why is JP getting criticized for similar performances???? Why? 779458[/snapback] Because on Roethlisberger's worst day above, he passed for 57% more yards than Losman did yesterday. Fifty-Seven Percent! O.k., that is just one day - a day on which the Bills had the lead the whole day, and the Bills were playing conservative. But the criticism also comes in because the measely 83 yards passing brings back memories of one of the most disastrous three-game QB performances in Buffalo Bills history, turned in by JP Losman in Weeks 2 through 4 last year. Once you've produced in the NFL, or at the very least, demonstrated yourself to be an effective game manager in the NFL, you earn a little extra benefit of the doubt for your performances. On the other hand, when you have a track record of being an absolute disaster at QB, you get a little more skepticism and scrutiny focused on your performances. JDG
JDG Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 This is annoying. More than once, I explained that the only thing I'm trying to prove here is that Losman's performance against Miami wasn't as good as an average performance from Roethlisberger or Dilfer. That's it. I don't see why this is so hard for people to understand. 779815[/snapback] Because if you say one negative word about JP Losman around here, whatever other nuance you might say is tossed out the window and you are immediately branded a Losman-hater and an ignoramus. JDG
JDG Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 You're comparing what Losman has done with Dilfer but forgetting one key element to this. Losman has 10 career starts and Dilfer was a 10 year vet at the time. The Bills are bringing Losman along much like the Steelers brought Big Ben along, slowly. That's the right way to do it. I really can't fathom anybody that doesn't understand this. 779127[/snapback] One of the fundamental differences between the Losman-optimists and the Losman-pessimists is that the Losman optimists cite Losman's experience in terms of games started. The Losman-pessimists cite Losman's experience in terms of his years of experience, and the three training camps (one and a half as a starter) under his belt. We're going to just keep yelling at each other if we don't bridge that fundamental difference - or at least a compromise interpretion at some place in between the two positions. Any analysis of NFL QB history would show that there is a huge difference between starting a 10th game as a rookie QB and starting a 10th game as a more-experienced QB. Thus, I do not find it convincing when I hear arguments from Losman-optimists that begin with "Losman has only 10 career starts" as if it was the 10th game of his rookie season. I think there is a higher standard for QB's that start their 10th game as NFL vets (ala Carson Palmer, Chad Pennington, etc.) vs. those that start their 10th game as a rookie. JDG
VABills Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 I swear to God, we are the luckiest fans in the world that Jim Kelly went to the NFL instead of signing with us right out of college. 779824[/snapback] Really? What team? I thought he went to the USFL. Stupid me.
Wraith Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 Most of Losman's supporters feel his stats from last year should be thrown out the window. You, I see, feel the opposite way. 779815[/snapback] No, not really. The changes from the end of last season to the beginning of this season represent a large "process change," thus what is considered normal this year will probably be different from what we considered normal last year. My point, which you still seemed to have missed, is that it is entirely too early to make judgements of any kind (good OR bad). Noticed I used the word "probably" in the paragraph above. Two data points is still not nearly enough. If it were, I would be shouting from the nearest mountain that Losman's completion percentage has jumped nearly 15 points this year. But I'm not. Yet. If you react to limited data, you are "chasing" the process, adding variation and inconsistency, and destroying any possiblity of gaging what the process is actually capable of. Mike Mularkey was incredibly guilty of this, managers and process operators world wide are guilty of this, and so are you. And why on earth would I want to compare one performance by Losman to the average performance of Roethlisberger or Dilfer? There is no basis for comparison (mean to mean would be better, but still misleading). That would be like comparing Roethlisberger's ~100 yard performance last night to Losmans ~140 yard average and saying Big Ben is no J.P. Losman. What's the point?
Orton's Arm Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 Let me know when our supporting cast is as good, or our coaching staff as stable as Ben's has been. Jesus H. Christ, do you honestly believe your crap is realistic?Mostly because you're emotional like a woman because you want someone else to play QB. Get over it - it's not going to happen without an injury. This coaching staff understands what they have to do and they're going to do exactly that. Yeah, because we shouldn't let this guy develop. Time to toss in another unaccomplished/limited veteran, so we can be mediocre forever. I swear to God, we are the luckiest fans in the world that Jim Kelly went to the NFL instead of signing with us right out of college. 779824[/snapback] You accuse me of being like an emotional woman, yet your post showed a little emotion itself. In answer to some of the other stuff you threw at me, I would actually prefer to see Nall start than Holcomb. With Losman, my biggest concern is whether he's talented at reading defenses or making complex decisions quickly. As JDG has pointed out, things were simplified for Losman to such a degree he really didn't have the opportunity to show much ability to make complex decisions quickly. Maybe he'll develop that eventually, but maybe some other quarterback would have more long-term potential in that area.
VABills Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 Why am I reading this thread? 779852[/snapback] because you're a losman hater?
cåblelady Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 because you're a losman hater? 779859[/snapback] No. P.S. I love you, Bill.
VABills Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 No. P.S. I love you, Bill. 779860[/snapback] Don't start. You see what happens when you do that to people?
cåblelady Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 Don't start. You see what happens when you do that to people? 779862[/snapback]
Orton's Arm Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 No, not really. The changes from the end of last season to the beginning of this season represent a large "process change," thus what is considered normal this year will probably be different from what we considered normal last year. My point, which you still seemed to have missed, is that it is entirely too early to make judgements of any kind (good OR bad). Now that I understand your view better, I find it a lot more reasonable. My point has been that it's too early to start saying Losman is as good as Dilfer or Roethlisberger. You seem to agree with this, while adding that it's too early to say that he isn't. I can live with this.
cåblelady Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 Now that I understand your view better, I find it a lot more reasonable. My point has been that it's too early to start saying Losman is as good as Dilfer or Roethlisberger. You seem to agree with this, while adding that it's too early to say that he isn't. I can live with this. 779868[/snapback] Ya mean we can close the thread now?
Alaska Darin Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 You accuse me of being like an emotional woman, yet your post showed a little emotion itself. In answer to some of the other stuff you threw at me, I would actually prefer to see Nall start than Holcomb. With Losman, my biggest concern is whether he's talented at reading defenses or making complex decisions quickly. As JDG has pointed out, things were simplified for Losman to such a degree he really didn't have the opportunity to show much ability to make complex decisions quickly. Maybe he'll develop that eventually, but maybe some other quarterback would have more long-term potential in that area. 779858[/snapback] Ah, so Craig Nall, dude of no NFL starts, is the man for you. I guess you're basing that upon his stellar camp, huh? Thanks for securing the #2 on my ignore list. It's been awhile since I've gotten to add someone. Steven in MD was probably getting lonely. Craig Nall? I'd call you an idiot but you'd probably print the post and eat it.
MDH Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 You accuse me of being like an emotional woman, yet your post showed a little emotion itself. In answer to some of the other stuff you threw at me, I would actually prefer to see Nall start than Holcomb. With Losman, my biggest concern is whether he's talented at reading defenses or making complex decisions quickly. As JDG has pointed out, things were simplified for Losman to such a degree he really didn't have the opportunity to show much ability to make complex decisions quickly. Maybe he'll develop that eventually, but maybe some other quarterback would have more long-term potential in that area. 779858[/snapback] You do realize that in Ben's first year as a starter he had, essentially, ONE read to make. If that guy wasn't open he threw it to his check down guy. If this is your concern about Losman why are you comparing him to BR who wasn't making real reads until his second full season as a starter? Also, tell me this. Which QBs, in their first 10 starts, "showed the ability to make complex decisions quickly?" You've written the guy off before you've ever given him a chance. Not many here are "Losman lovers", all I see are a bunch of fans who are willing to give the guy a chance to prove himself before they throw him under the bus. If the coaching staff doesn't have much faith in him after his 30th start and call the same type of game they did on Sunday you may have a point. But until then they're doing the right thing in brining him along slowly.
Alaska Darin Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 You do realize that in Ben's first year as a starter he had, essentially, ONE read to make. If that guy wasn't open he threw it to his check down guy. If this is your concern about Losman why are you comparing him to BR who wasn't making real reads until his second full season as a starter? You did read he wants Craig Nall, right? There's no way he's going to be interested in anything factual. Craig Nall.
JDG Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 You do realize that in Ben's first year as a starter he had, essentially, ONE read to make. If that guy wasn't open he threw it to his check down guy. If this is your concern about Losman why are you comparing him to BR who wasn't making real reads until his second full season as a starter? Of course, BR was a rookie. JP Losman is a third-year player Also, tell me this. Which QBs, in their first 10 starts, "showed the ability to make complex decisions quickly?" 779881[/snapback] "Who is Chad Pennington?" I'll take NFL QB's in the first 10 starts for $400, Alex.... ;-) JDG
Wraith Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 You do realize that in Ben's first year as a starter he had, essentially, ONE read to make. If that guy wasn't open he threw it to his check down guy. If this is your concern about Losman why are you comparing him to BR who wasn't making real reads until his second full season as a starter? Also, tell me this. Which QBs, in their first 10 starts, "showed the ability to make complex decisions quickly?" You've written the guy off before you've ever given him a chance. Not many here are "Losman lovers", all I see are a bunch of fans who are willing to give the guy a chance to prove himself before they throw him under the bus. If the coaching staff doesn't have much faith in him after his 30th start and call the same type of game they did on Sunday you may have a point. But until then they're doing the right thing in brining him along slowly. 779881[/snapback] Not to mention I have yet to hear him offer any way to MEASURE whether Losman is making quick decisions or not. Because without a good measure, how do the hell do we really know what he's capable of? Anecdotal evidence is useless clearly, or else I could make the argument that Losman's short third down passing attempts against Miami were the result of reading the biltz and hitting the hot receiver who would attempt to break a tackle for the first down. Those sure SEEM to be quick, intelligent decisions. But how can I really know? If I could rewatch every one of Losman's games again and break them down AND I knew what the play was that was called and what the reads were supposed to be, I might attempt that analysis. But I don't have the Bills playbook so I'm just going to have to rely on the Bills coaching staff for that.
Rockinon Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 Yes, it was a win. But that win had more to do with Culpepper's implosion and Buffalo's overall performance on defense, special teams, and the running game than it did with the passing game. Losman averaged 4.6 yards per attempt yesterday, which isn't exactly what you want from your quarterback. Trent Dilfer's career average is 6.6 yards per attempt. As for Losman's pretty rating . . . last year people complained that Holcomb would inflate his rating by throwing five yard passes on 3rd and 13. Well guess what? Losman had 11 completions yesterday. Of those 11, three were 3rd down completions that were short of the first down marker. On 3rd and 12, Losman completed an 8 yard pass to Josh Reed. Later he faced 3rd and 8, and completed a 6 yard pass to McGahee. At another point he faced 3rd and 14, and completed a ten yard pass to Peerless Price. Those three plays represent 27% of his completions, and 28% of his passing yardage. Did Losman embarrass himself? No. He didn't turn the ball over or do anything to lose the game. On the other hand, he didn't do much to help win the game either. Against an imploding Culpepper, an overmatched Mularkey, and the Dolphins' horse manure offensive line, the Bills didn't really need much of a passing game to win. Not all our opponents will be this easy. 777893[/snapback] I'm afraid I have to disagree with this mishmash. Losman took every snap in this game. Sometimes, the best way to win is to simply do your job without trying to force a spectaular play. He is doing a fine job and you can't take that away from him.
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