I dont care about his numbers.....my hat goes

[Bill from NYC]

Come on now,  I shouldn't have to tell you that boxing is a sport.

 

You tap gloves with your opponent before each round,  and hug him when everything is done.

 

I never had any ill will towards an opponent,  just tons of respect.

779240[/snapback]

 

Well, maybe a little ill will......

 

>>> Participating in that sport, has allowed me to deal with morons in a peaceful manner.<<<<

 

Hey, I am just having fun; ignore me.

[CosmicBills]

Problem is,  I can't stand people who know so little,  yet act like they know so much.

779227[/snapback]

 

I don't think it's an issue of HA or JDG knowing too little. They both might be very intelligent, probably are, in their personal lives and work.

 

The issue really is that they are more concerned with being "right" than objectively looking at the situation. They (more JDG than HA) bend every situation and fact to fit THEIR pre conceived belief that JP is terrible and a waste of a roster space rather than looking at the whole picture objectively.

 

It's not about the Bills or JP. It's about them. And THAT is the problem.

 

Narrow, unenlightened self-interest does not impress me. Never has, never will.

[BidsJr]

I'll grant your point that two of those Losman's throws helped with field goal position.  I don't think many of Losman's supporters would have let Holcomb use that same excuse last year though.  In fact, I feel the roles have been reversed, with Losman's supporters now arguing that it's better to get 5 yards on 3rd and 13 than it is to take the sack.

 

You argue that on the three 3rd down plays I talked about, completing a pass short of the first down marker represented good game management.  But let's look at Losman's overall record on 3rd down in that game:

 

There were ten separate times when Losman was asked to drop back to pass on third down.  Three of those times, he completed a pass short of the first down marker (the three passes I described earlier).  Another three times, his pass attempt was incomplete.  Then there were two times that he was sacked.  There were only two times that whole game where a Losman pass converted a third down--a five yard pass, and later an eight yard pass. 

779232[/snapback]

 

None of this changes the fact that all three of those passes were good sound decisions made by JP playing with the lead.

 

You make the comparison of

 

1. A QB playing with the lead, completing 3rd down passes getting the team into, or better field goal range.

 

2. A QB who's M-O was dumping the ball off regardless of down and distance and field position.

 

This is just faulty logic as you refuse to compare apples to apples. Yet insist on trying to tie together these situations which are completely different.

[Risin]

I don't think it's an issue of HA or JDG knowing too little. They both might be very intelligent, probably are, in their personal lives and work.

 

The issue really is that they are more concerned with being "right" than objectively looking at the situation. They (more JDG than HA) bend every situation and fact to fit THEIR pre conceived belief that JP is terrible and a waste of a roster space rather than looking at the whole picture objectively.

 

It's not about the Bills or JP. It's about them. And THAT is the problem.

 

Narrow, unenlightened self-interest does not impress me. Never has, never will.

779247[/snapback]

 

 

Problem is, I know they're intelligent, but coming off like they do gives me the perception of the opposite.

 

Either way, JP's play will do the talking for me from here on out.

[Risin]

Well, maybe a little ill will......

 

>>> Participating in that sport, has allowed me to deal with morons in a peaceful manner.<<<<

 

Hey, I am just having fun; ignore me. 

779242[/snapback]

 

 

I respect you too much to ignore you.

 

Even when you're having fun at my expense.

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Come on now,  I shouldn't have to tell you that boxing is a sport.

 

You tap gloves with your opponent before each round,  and hug him when everything is done.

 

I never had any ill will towards an opponent,  just tons of respect.

779240[/snapback]

 

Tell that to Mike Tyson.

 

*CHOMP*

[Ozymandius]

Anyone who wants to doubt Losman has every right to do so until he proves himself. I just find it interesting that there is so much focus on that position when ultimately I don't think it's that important that he succeeds. The regime currently in place did not draft Losman so they have no emotional investment to stick with him through failure. If JP sucks like many people think, then he'll be gone from the team very soon. This isn't a situation where we have to deal with him sucking year after year all in the name of developing him. There's a long season ahead, and there will be plenty of games in which the defense isn't dominant and JP will need to make plays for the team to win. If he screws up, I expect him to be released this offseason. We're in a day and age where you can sign a Pro Bowler like Drew Brees through free agency or trade for one like Matt Hasselbeck after another team has put in the work to groom him. It's up to the people in charge of player personnel to find the QB that will lead Buffalo to a championship. If that QB isn't JP Losman, no biggie.

[pkwwjd]

No.  I just think that as a third-year played in whom we invested a 1st and 2nd round pick, we shouldn't have to manage the game around him like we have Damon Huard at QB.  Time will tell if this was just a situational thing this week on the road in Miami, or a longer-term lack of confidence in Losman by the coaches. 

 

JDG

778840[/snapback]

 

 

Hmmmm, Damon Huard, huh? His D only gave up 9 points this week. How'd his offense do?

 

Oh, yeah, ... rational post, dude. Even without Big Willie, KC's line is still better than ours, and LJ is (at this point in his career) a better game day runner than WM.

 

Welcome to Ignore

[Orton's Arm]

The issue really is that they are more concerned with being "right" than objectively looking at the situation. They (more JDG than HA) bend every situation and fact to fit THEIR pre conceived belief that JP is terrible and a waste of a roster space rather than looking at the whole picture objectively.

Let me ask you this question: do you feel the lack of objectivity only works one way? Do you feel that Losman's strongest doubters lack objectivity, while his strongest supporters are unbiased?

 

Let's face it: Losman had 83 passing yards in Miami. Moorman was asked to punt six times. Losman's yards per attempt was a mere 4.6; and he only converted 20% of the third downs on which he was asked to throw. Yes Losman avoided mistakes, which is part of being a good game manager. But he didn't move the chains, which is also part of being a good game manager. I'm not trying to argue that this one game proves anything one way or the other about the direction his overall career will take. It's just one game. But it's a game where many Bills fans got excited because they thought they saw Roethlisberger, or at very least Trent Dilfer. The only point I'm trying to argue here is that Losman's play in Miami didn't come close to either standard.

 

If Losman has a Roethlisberger-like day, I'll be the first to say so. Okay, well maybe not quite the first. But I will say so at some point.

[Kelly the Dog]

Let me ask you this question: do you feel the lack of objectivity only works one way?  Do you feel that Losman's strongest doubters lack objectivity, while his strongest supporters are unbiased?

 

Let's face it: Losman had 83 passing yards in Miami.  Moorman was asked to punt six times.  Losman's yards per attempt was a mere 4.6; and he only converted 20% of the third downs on which he was asked to throw.  Yes Losman avoided mistakes, which is part of being a good game manager.  But he didn't move the chains, which is also part of being a good game manager.  I'm not trying to argue that this one game proves anything one way or the other about the direction his overall career will take.  It's just one game.  But it's a game where many Bills fans got excited because they thought they saw Roethlisberger, or at very least Trent Dilfer.  The only point I'm trying to argue here is that Losman's play in Miami didn't come close to either standard. 

 

If Losman has a Roethlisberger-like day, I'll be the first to say so.  Okay, well maybe not quite the first.  But I will say so at some point.

779313[/snapback]

But his passer rating was over 90! That's damn good! Hell, his completion percentage, which we know is by far the most important statistic, was like 61%! That's damn good, too! And he managed the game like a nine year vet! he was awesome by those standards!

[BidsJr]

But his passer rating was over 90! That's damn good! Hell, his completion percentage, which we know is by far the most important statistic, was like 61%! That's damn good, too! And he managed the game like a nine year vet! he was awesome by those standards!

779322[/snapback]

 

Bills 16

Fins 6

 

That is the most important statistic.

[Orton's Arm]

But his passer rating was over 90! That's damn good! Hell, his completion percentage, which we know is by far the most important statistic, was like 61%! That's damn good, too! And he managed the game like a nine year vet! he was awesome by those standards!

779322[/snapback]

Holcomb's been in the league 11 years, not nine. But yes, Losman did manage the game like a poor man's Holcomb.

 

Edit: I tend not to rely on passer rating nearly as much as I used to. I changed my mind about passer rating when I learned that John Elway's career passer rating was very similar to Holcomb's. I consider myself a Holcomb fan, but there's no way Holcomb's level of play is anywhere close to John Elway's. If, however, you look at yards per attempt, you'll see that John Elway's career average is substantially higher than Holcomb's.

 

The reason for all this is their different styles of play. Holcomb would go for the short, high percentage passes, and thereby inflate his completion percentage. Operating out of the shotgun, John Elway would attempt more high risk, high reward passes. This would cause his completion percentage (and therefore his quarterback rating) to be artificially low.

 

In the end, I realized there's no reason to take completion percentage into account. Say that quarterback A is 1/3 for 20 yards. Quarterback B is 2/3 for 20 yards. In my mind, each quarterback has been equally productive.

[Orton's Arm]

Bills 16

Fins  6

 

That is the most important statistic.

779328[/snapback]

When evaluating teams yes. When evaluating individual players . . . not so much so.

[John from Riverside]

John:

 

I'm totally excited about beating Miami (one of the two most important games of the season.)  I predicted 9-7 for the Bills this year, with a possible shot at the playoffs if we could "steal" one of our two opening road division games.  Well, we've now done that (and should have stolen both!)

 

Here's the thing with your Losman conundrum.    If Losman is playing the gunslinger, and not playing well, and we lose - he's naturally going to be criticized.  What concerned me about the Miami game is that by my observations of the game, the coaches made a mid-game adjustment to take the game out of Losman's hands as much as possible.  After the first couple series, they tried to call as many pass plays as possible did not require Losman to make decisions - swings, screens, quick slants, and the occasional bomb.  Great coaching move (it won us the game), and kudos to Losman for not messing that up (but you'd have to be really bad to mess that up, eh?)    You'll just have to forgive me for not getting *excited* about it.

 

Let me put it this way - Losman's performance thus far  in 2006 has been compared to Trent Dilfer's for the 2000 Ravens.  Its an interesting point.  But really, did we invest a 1st, a 2nd, and a 5th round pick into JP Losman to get Trent Dilfer circa 2000?    My thinking is that we invested those picks in Losman in order to put the game into the hands of the guy, not to be taking the game out of his hands.    If we wanted to do that, we could have signed Damon Huard (18 of 23 for 133 yards - albeit with 2 fumbles, one lost, in a tough road game in Denver against a very good defense) and saved some serious draft picks.

 

Maybe I'm crazy, but I'd like to believe that it is possible to be:

a) excited as heck about beating Miami on the road, and

b) concerned that Losman doesn't appear to be where we would want him to be at this stage of his development, given his contract, his draft status, and our other options at QB

 

all at the same time.

 

JDG

778729[/snapback]

 

Your points make a lot of sense to me.....you have valid points. I think that Losman will eventually be the player that we gave up so much for.....all we can ask for is that he continues to improve and I think we can both agree that he is doing that.....last year he had big plays and then periods of time where you would pull your hear out.....this year he looks calmer...more seasoned....more accurate...and is making better decisions. He held up very well under Miami's all out blitzes that give most young QBs a lot of trouble....he threw the ball away...he threw the short pass (by the way there were several of those short passes had the WR been able to just make one more guy miss they would have gone for HUGE plays...and eventually they will)

 

Baby steps.....if we can take baby steps with Losman and continue to pull out wins we are going to be happy campers by December.

[Alaska Darin]

If 83 yards is "solid", I'd hate to see what you think a "mediocre" day looks like....

 

JDG

777291[/snapback]

Easy, we just read your drivel.

[CircleTheWagons]

In the end, I realized there's no reason to take completion percentage into account.  Say that quarterback A is 1/3 for 20 yards.  Quarterback B is 2/3 for 20 yards.  In my mind, each quarterback has been equally productive.

779337[/snapback]

 

Although I don't always agree with you, I usually respect your opinion, but the idea that completing a third of your passes is as good as completing two-thirds is nuts .

 

I'll take a QB who gives his receivers 2 chances to make plays for every 3 pass attempts over the QB who gives them one chance - even if they end up with the same total yards. As a bonus, the QB completing more passes probably kept the offense on the field longer.

 

Evaluating QBs is tough - all of the stats on their own are extremely limited. YPC depends on the scheme, the blocking downfield, and the WRs YAC (just a few of problems with it). Of course that's what makes these discussions interesting.

[BidsJr]

When evaluating teams yes.  When evaluating individual players . . . not so much so.

779340[/snapback]

 

 

 

If a QB goes 0/0 0 yards and 0 TD's and wins, he did what he had 2.

 

If a QB goes 22/37 306 2 TD's and 1 pick and loses, is that a good game?

 

Those are Pennington's numbers btw, from the loss to the Patriots.

 

What you don't seem to get is that you MUST evaluate individual players within the context of the team, and the individual game they are playing in.

 

Example:

 

Cadillac Williams ran 15 times for 37 yards against the Falcons.

 

Had 7 carries in the first 2 drives.

 

Is he a bust? No, his team was playing behind the entire game so he was a non factor.

 

Vick on the other hand was 10/15 91 1td 1pick

 

No need for the big game throwing when they ran for 300 yards on the ground. While running down the clock up 14-0.

 

I'm not saying that JP is even close to being there yet, but you have to take his game in context and in that case he played extremely well. (For what he was asked to do)

[Dan]

I think the point on Losman that several here are trying to make and that several are trying to denegrate; is that Losman played a safe, conservative game. Now some see that as good, when some see that as the same thing as Holcomb. Therefore, why's Losman's safe play good and Holcomb's safe play bad. Here's how I see it:

 

Last year Losman seemed erratic and uncomfortable which led to poor decisions and turnovers, which cost us games. So far this year (for the purposes of this thread the Miami game), he seems more comfortable and in control which is leading to fewer mistakes and putting us in a position to win games.

 

Now how is that different from Holcomb? Because Losman, being younger and more athletically talented, has much more upside provided he can learn the necessary skills of also being a game manager.

 

For the game in question, Losman's short underneath throws came while we had the lead and didn't need to make mistakes. If he continues to make short throws when we're down by 10 points, then I'd be the first to say he needs to throw more. All we needed was a game manager on Sunday, we didn't need the gun slinger. Last season, Losman seemed incapable of managing the game. Hence, the optimism from his play on Sunday.

 

All in all, we saw progress from JP on Sunday. Did he play the perfect game? No. But, did he progress? Absolutely. The questions or discussion, IMO, should be concerend with whether or not he'll continue to progress. Because I think its irrefutable that he's progressed. Now can he continue it and become the good QB that wins games by throwing 300 yards when needed while also managing the game with short passes when needed.

[BidsJr]

In the end, I realized there's no reason to take completion percentage into account.  Say that quarterback A is 1/3 for 20 yards.  Quarterback B is 2/3 for 20 yards.  In my mind, each quarterback has been equally productive.

779337[/snapback]

 

If you want to look at it black and white like that then you also must consider.

 

10-30 200 yards = 10 first downs. (potentially)

 

20-30 200 yards = 20 first downs. (potentially)

 

10 first downs = 30 potential plays

20 first downs = 60 potential plays

 

20-30 for 200 would be, potentially, much more productive.

 

In my mind, we are talking apples and oranges.

[BidsJr]

For the game in question, Losman's short underneath throws came while we had the lead and didn't need to make mistakes.  If he continues to make short throws when we're down by 10 points, then I'd be the first to say he needs to throw more.  All we needed was a game manager on Sunday, we didn't need the gun slinger.  Last season, Losman seemed incapable of managing the game.  Hence, the optimism from his play on Sunday. 

 

779453[/snapback]

 

Bingo.