BoondckCL Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Huh? The holy lands were taken over by the muslims. The Crusades were launched to take them back. Unless all the Christians and Jews decided over night to become Muslims. Don't think it happened that way. 778321[/snapback] Well, i have to admit that it has been a while since 6th grade social studies and i have done a considerable amount of drinking including Malt Liquor and Milwaukees Best, so i think i may be wrong by the way you took it. But did i say that they had occupied it for a long time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 I am trying to recall the last time someone put a gun to person's head and said "Covert and become a christian, or die!!" IF you bring up something from 300 plus years ago, get ready for great big pimp slap 778318[/snapback] No, but much of the US and this thread it seems is ready to say "Convert from Islam, or die!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 WHAT? They taxed non-believers and kept them separate from their own. They most certainly were not TOLERANT. They begrudgingly accepted SOME Christians and Jews, and wantonly slaughtered those who tried to resist. 778325[/snapback] "Wantonly slaughtered"? Most Islamic cities had thriving Christian and Jewish communities well into the 20th century. Outside of the greater Palestinian area (which, not conicidentally, was where the Crusades - the Christian invasion against Islam - was fought), tolerance of other religions was the rule rather than the exception. In fact, tolerance of people who hold other beliefs is written into the Koran: We believe in God' date=' and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them[/quote'] Emphasis mine; primarily stressing the Judeo-Christian, since I doubt you're arguing about Islam's tolerance of Hindu or Buddhist. Let there be no compulsion in religion "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law' date=' the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. [/quote'] And actually, most of the second chapter of the Koran is very clear on the matter: Jews and Christians are, at worst, "misguided Muslims". The whole chapter is replete with statements to the akin to And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful." Whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good, he will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. That right there is a pretty unambiguous statement of equality before Allah. And, in fact, the Koran advocates - rather strongly, actually - forgiveness of Christians and Jews for not being Muslim. ut forgive them [Jews]' date=' and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind. From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. [/quote'] And regardless of what the Koran actually says...the historical record has a more than fair number of examples of not just tolreance of but protection of Jews and Christians. The protection of Orthodox and Nestorian Christians in the Low Middle Ages springs most immediately to mind, as does the acceptance of Jewish refugees from the Inquisition (as of WWI, there were still Spanish-speaking Jewish communities scattered across the Ottoman Empire). The Jewish and Christian communities in most major Islamic cities I can think of (Kabul and Herat in Afghanistan being great examples) were thriving and important communities up to WWII and beyond. Fact is, Islam from its inception to about 1950 has been no more and in many ways substantially less intolerant and violent than Western culture. That that changed around 1950 with the advent of Arab nationalism (the Arab League and Muslim Brotherhood - which is, in fact, NOT a "Muslim" brotherhood but an Arab one) is not the fault of Islam, nor does it represent Islam circa 1200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdh1 Posted September 18, 2006 Author Share Posted September 18, 2006 No, but much of the US and this thread it seems is ready to say "Convert from Islam, or die!!" 778444[/snapback] Um. okay. So why no problem with Hindus or Buddhists The Amish are as about as different as you could be from the mainstraim, but no one has problems with them. Because they don't have cells around the world plotting to blow people up. And you make it seem like a "US vs. Islam" problem. So how do explain away stuff like this? http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/05/2...ombs/index.html Christian market-blown up, people killed- In Indonesia-No US troops there-no oil-what say you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yall Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 "Wantonly slaughtered"? Most Islamic cities had thriving Christian and Jewish communities well into the 20th century. Outside of the greater Palestinian area (which, not conicidentally, was where the Crusades - the Christian invasion against Islam - was fought), tolerance of other religions was the rule rather than the exception. In fact, tolerance of people who hold other beliefs is written into the Koran: Emphasis mine; primarily stressing the Judeo-Christian, since I doubt you're arguing about Islam's tolerance of Hindu or Buddhist. That right there is a pretty unambiguous statement of equality before Allah. And, in fact, the Koran advocates - rather strongly, actually - forgiveness of Christians and Jews for not being Muslim. ut forgive them [Jews], and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind. From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And regardless of what the Koran actually says...the historical record has a more than fair number of examples of not just tolreance of but protection of Jews and Christians. The protection of Orthodox and Nestorian Christians in the Low Middle Ages springs most immediately to mind, as does the acceptance of Jewish refugees from the Inquisition (as of WWI, there were still Spanish-speaking Jewish communities scattered across the Ottoman Empire). The Jewish and Christian communities in most major Islamic cities I can think of (Kabul and Herat in Afghanistan being great examples) were thriving and important communities up to WWII and beyond. Fact is, Islam from its inception to about 1950 has been no more and in many ways substantially less intolerant and violent than Western culture. That that changed around 1950 with the advent of Arab nationalism (the Arab League and Muslim Brotherhood - which is, in fact, NOT a "Muslim" brotherhood but an Arab one) is not the fault of Islam, nor does it represent Islam circa 1200. 778470[/snapback] Bravo. They were sort of okay to Jews and Christians, but Hindus? Zaoastrans? Nope sorry. They deserved death. Hardly the model of tolerance. It's like me hating blacks, but being ok with hispanics, since they have some european lineage. I'm still a racist !@#$. Same goes for Islam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 I am trying to recall the last time someone put a gun to person's head and said "Covert and become a christian, or die!!" IF you bring up something from 300 plus years ago, get ready for great big pimp slap 778318[/snapback] I'm trying to remember the last time someone put a gun to a person's head and said "Convert and become a Muslim, or die!" Really...name me ONE instance of forcible conversion to Islam. Just one. From any point in history. You can't, because there aren't any, because the Koran does not and has not ever recognized forcible conversion. Ever. Which is very unlike Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 And regardless of what the Koran actually says...the historical record has a more than fair number of examples of not just tolreance of but protection of Jews and Christians. The protection of Orthodox and Nestorian Christians in the Low Middle Ages springs most immediately to mind, as does the acceptance of Jewish refugees from the Inquisition (as of WWI, there were still Spanish-speaking Jewish communities scattered across the Ottoman Empire). The Jewish and Christian communities in most major Islamic cities I can think of (Kabul and Herat in Afghanistan being great examples) were thriving and important communities up to WWII and beyond. Fact is, Islam from its inception to about 1950 has been no more and in many ways substantially less intolerant and violent than Western culture. That that changed around 1950 with the advent of Arab nationalism (the Arab League and Muslim Brotherhood - which is, in fact, NOT a "Muslim" brotherhood but an Arab one) is not the fault of Islam, nor does it represent Islam circa 1200. 778470[/snapback] Bravo. They were sort of okay to Jews and Christians, but Hindus? Zaoastrans? Nope sorry. They deserved death. Hardly the model of tolerance. It's like me hating blacks, but being ok with hispanics, since they have some european lineage. I'm still a racist !@#$. Same goes for Islam. 778497[/snapback] And your sources for the Islamic oppression of Hindu and Zoroastrianism are...? Hinduism and Islam coexisted rather well until the British partition of India. India's most well-known architectural landmark - the Taj Mahal - was actually built by a Muslim emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNRed Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 I'm trying to remember the last time someone put a gun to a person's head and said "Convert and become a Muslim, or die!" 778498[/snapback] This? GAZA CITY, Gaza (CNN) -- Two Fox journalists kidnapped by militants two weeks ago in Gaza and freed appeared to be in good health as they embraced family and co-workers in an emotional reunion. Fox reporter Steve Centanni and photographer Olaf Wiig were released shortly after noon Sunday and dropped off at the Beach Hotel in Gaza City, where they were greeted by a swarm of people offering hugs. The hotel is a popular place for journalists. The two men later crossed into Israel and left for Jerusalem. The Palestinian government had condemned the kidnapping and the men's families pleaded publicly for their release. (Watch as freed journalists prepare to cross into Israel -- 1:52) Hours before their release, a video on the Palestinian news service Ramattan TV showed the two reading statements proclaiming they had converted to Islam. But the two later explained they had done so at gunpoint, and that the conversion was not real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yall Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 I'm trying to remember the last time someone put a gun to a person's head and said "Convert and become a Muslim, or die!" Really...name me ONE instance of forcible conversion to Islam. Just one. From any point in history. You can't, because there aren't any, because the Koran does not and has not ever recognized forcible conversion. Ever. Which is very unlike Christianity. 778498[/snapback] OK, here is one... took me all of .04 seconds to find... http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/fnc/st...42746.asp?c=rss Get out from the mosque much? I could actually give you more links to more people who endured similar forced "conversions" but you don't seem to be one for little things like "facts" or "reality". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 OK, here is one... took me all of .04 seconds to find... http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/fnc/st...42746.asp?c=rss Get out from the mosque much? I could actually give you more links to more people who endured similar forced "conversions" but you don't seem to be one for little things like "facts" or "reality". 778523[/snapback] Except the "fact" and "reality" is that that is not conversion to Islam. Islamic teachings themselves specifically state that such a conversion isn't recognized. And if you can't discern between the individual acts of lunatics and overall religious doctrine...that's your own problem. By your logic, Christianity supports pedophilia because of David Koresh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNRed Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 No, but much of the US and this thread it seems is ready to say "Convert from Islam, or die!!" 778444[/snapback] That's BS and you know it. The problem isn't that there *are* Muslims, but that there are a significant number of Muslims who openly claim the world needs to recognize that Islam is the one true religion. And they're so secure in this belief that any criticism of Islam (even if it isn't criticism but, say, a question or a cartoon about it) is met with riots and violence. I mean, they shot a nun in the back and killed her because of what they thought the Pope said. People died because of cartoons a few months ago. WTF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yall Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Oh, and for those of you interested... here is a nice link about "Mr Peace" mohammed... http://personalpages.tds.net/~theseeker/Mohammed.htm And crap thrower (I'm assuming thats your name because you throw crap in response to arguments and pray that it sticks..) to say that islam was a peaceful religion until the 1950's ignores common sense and history itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yall Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Except the "fact" and "reality" is that that is not conversion to Islam. Islamic teachings themselves specifically state that such a conversion isn't recognized. And if you can't discern between the individual acts of lunatics and overall religious doctrine...that's your own problem. By your logic, Christianity supports pedophilia because of David Koresh. 778527[/snapback] Wrong, all I have been saying all along is that Islam supports (by default) the actions of mohammed, which were quite violent. Can you deny that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacka Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 I have found a translation of the pop'e speech: Pope's Speech All this controversy is about one paragraph where the pope cites someone from the late 1300s about how violence in furthering your religion is against the tennats of all religions (at least that what I got out of it skimming it). Mabe CTM has the time to scrutinize it in depth. 99% of the links I got were saying that the pope blasphemed muslims, without even telling us what he actually said! If Bills fans were like muslims, we would be calling for Peter King's head (literally) because of what he wrote about us last week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Let's also not forget that it was a religion that was created around a time during the crusades, when infadels were coming into the holy land and were truly the enemy. 778315[/snapback] The 7th century was around the time of the crusades? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yall Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 The 7th century was around the time of the crusades? . 778582[/snapback] Alot of folks need a refresher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 And crap thrower (I'm assuming thats your name because you throw crap in response to arguments and pray that it sticks..) to say that islam was a peaceful religion until the 1950's ignores common sense and history itself. 778546[/snapback] No, actually, it's because when I have to argue with idiots like you, it's easier on you if I stoop to your level. Unfortunately, right now I only have time for the gratuituous insult in reply to yours, not a substantial post. That'll come later...after I read the page you linked and obviously didn't read yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 All this controversy is about one paragraph where the pope cites someone from the late 1300s about how violence in furthering your religion is against the tennats of all religions (at least that what I got out of it skimming it). Mabe CTM has the time to scrutinize it in depth. 778578[/snapback] I read it a few days ago. That was pretty much the gist of it. I actually thought it was a well-written and impressive theological (not just Christian) treatise. Too bad the "Hot Falafel " Muslim crowd only got the "The Pope is evil" bullet points off al Jazeera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdh1 Posted September 18, 2006 Author Share Posted September 18, 2006 I'm trying to remember the last time someone put a gun to a person's head and said "Convert and become a Muslim, or die!" Really...name me ONE instance of forcible conversion to Islam. Just one. From any point in history. You can't, because there aren't any, because the Koran does not and has not ever recognized forcible conversion. Ever. Which is very unlike Christianity. 778498[/snapback] Wow, 30 seconds to find this gem: Two Fox News journalists freed by militants Sunday described a harrowing two weeks of captivity during which they were blindfolded, tied in painful positions and forced at gunpoint to say on a video that they converted to Islam. "I hope that this never scares a single journalist away from coming to Gaza to cover the story because the Palestinian people are very beautiful and kindhearted," said Steve Centanni, a 60-year-old American reporter who was released along with cameraman Olaf Wiig, 36, of New Zealand. "The world needs to know more about them. efore their release, a video was released showing Wiig and Centanni dressed in beige Arab-style robes. Wiig delivered an anti-Western speech, his face expressionless and his tone halting. The kidnappers claimed both men had converted to Islam. "We were forced to convert to Islam at gunpoint," Centanni told Fox. "Don't get me wrong here. I have the highest respect for Islam, and I learned a lot of good things about it, but it was something we felt we had to do because they had the guns, and we didn't know what the hell was going on." http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/feeds/.../ap2975585.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 after I read the page you linked and obviously didn't read yourself. 778597[/snapback] poke around that website a little. Looks like a real legit in depth philosophical website, right down to the quote by Elvis Costello on the main page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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