Defending TD

[Orton's Arm]

The Bills should have taken Steinbach even if it meant not trading down. Ruben was getting old, thus the need for a LG.

The 2003 draft was a double edged sword.....

 

TD was a genius for getting a 1st round pick for Peerless Price, yet he was an arrogant douchebag for thinking that the lowly Bills were good enough to wait more than a year for MaGahee when there was a great OG such as Steinbach available.

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You hit the nail on the head in this post, from start to finish.

[Kelly the Dog]

The Bills should have taken Steinbach even if it meant not trading down. Ruben was getting old, thus the need for a LG.

The 2003 draft was a double edged sword.....

 

TD was a genius for getting a 1st round pick for Peerless Price, yet he was an arrogant douchebag for thinking that the lowly Bills were good enough to wait more than a year for MaGahee when there was a great OG such as Steinbach available.

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In retrospect, maybe. Most draftniks I recall had Steinbach going in the second round. Ten picks later than McGahee he was chosen. He was far from a sure thing, although some people (rightfully) thought he would be good. What people tend to ignore about the McGahee pick was it was 90% about money. Donohoe thought that no one on that list, including Steinbach, was worth the millions that a #1 pick gets. And that Willis was. Right now, I would bet all 32 GMs would take McGahee ahead of Steinbach. I would take him now over Steinbach, too. Although we do need guards and we surely could use him a lot and TD's biggest failure, outside of coaching hires, was to not find enough offensive linemen.

[Dawgg]

McGahee was also taken ahead of a perfectly healthy Larry Johnson.

 

How is that pick looking?

 

Even if McGahee is slightly better than LJ (the jury is still out on that one), LJ was 100% healthy and would have been serviceable immediately upon drafting him. Instead, the team played that year as though they had no first round pick.

 

In retrospect, maybe. Most draftniks I recall had Steinbach going in the second round. Ten picks later than McGahee he was chosen. He was far from a sure thing, although some people (rightfully) thought he would be good. What people tend to ignore about the McGahee pick was it was 90% about money. Donohoe thought that no one on that list, including Steinbach, was worth the millions that a #1 pick gets. And that Willis was. Right now, I would bet all 32 GMs would take McGahee ahead of Steinbach. I would take him now over Steinbach, too. Although we do need guards and we surely could use him a lot and TD's biggest failure, outside of coaching hires, was to not find enough offensive linemen.

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[Ramius]

McGahee was also taken ahead of a perfectly healthy Larry Johnson. 

 

How is that pick looking?

 

Even if McGahee is slightly better than LJ (the jury is still out on that one), LJ was 100% healthy and would have been serviceable immediately upon drafting him. Instead, the team played that year as though they had no first round pick.

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bull sh--. Swap McGahee for LJ and Willis would have lit the league on fire last year. LJ would have toiled for the same 3.9 YPC here and gained roughly the same amount of yards.

 

Or are you going to tell me the teams they play on have no effect on their numbers?

[Bill from NYC]

Right now, I would bet all 32 GMs would take McGahee ahead of Steinbach. I would take him now over Steinbach, too. Although we do need guards and we surely could use him a lot and TD's biggest failure, outside of coaching hires, was to not find enough offensive linemen.

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Assuming he stays healthy, watch what happens in 07. Steinbach will approach Hutch money.

As for all 32 GMs wanting MaGahee over Hutch, that would be a very, very dumb bet. OGs tend to out last banged up rbs, especially those with lots of carries and a history of knee problems, wouldn't you say? Nah, you probably would not.

 

In any event, let's hope your homer slant is right....this time.

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dawgg]

Completely agree, don't get me wrong!

 

But that's exactly my point Ramius... the question I have is this:

 

Let's say for argument sake McGahee and LJ are similar in skill, maybe give the edge to McGahee slightly. Is that difference worthy enough for the Bills to pass over LJ (who was perfectly healthy) in favor of Willis, who really needed 1.5 years before he can play like his normal self?

 

bull sh--. Swap McGahee for LJ and Willis would have lit the league on fire last year. LJ would have toiled for the same 3.9 YPC here and gained roughly the same amount of yards.

 

Or are you going to tell me the teams they play on have no effect on their numbers?

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[Kelly the Dog]

Assuming he stays healthy, watch what happens in 07. Steinbach will approach Hutch money.

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Wanna bet on that?

[Dibs]

bull sh--. Swap McGahee for LJ and Willis would have lit the league on fire last year. LJ would have toiled for the same 3.9 YPC here and gained roughly the same amount of yards.

 

Or are you going to tell me the teams they play on have no effect on their numbers?

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Agreed.

.....KCs OL last year is one of the best....perhaps of all time.

Ours was.....um.....well, not.

[Dibs]

Completely agree, don't get me wrong!

 

But that's exactly my point Ramius... the question I have is this:

 

Let's say for argument sake McGahee and LJ are similar in skill, maybe give the edge to McGahee slightly.  Is that difference worthy enough for the Bills to pass over LJ (who was perfectly healthy) in favor of Willis, who really needed 1.5 years before he can play like his normal self?

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I think at the time, perhaps it certainly was(& still may prove to be).

LJ was not a top 20 pick. Nor was he a top 10. Nor was he a top 5.

WM was easily showing himself to be a top 5 pick before his injury.

Also, LJs production has shown to be far greater than one would expect from the 27th pick....he led the AFC in yards, the NFL in YPC & was second in the NFL with 20 TDs.

If we are assuming WM is a little better than LJ I'd say the 4 picks difference is totally negligible & if pushed, yes to your question.

[BoondckCL]

Bottomline is that hopefully Willis comes back and has a strong year in Buffalo. Larry Johnson, well, he is having all of his success now, and it is not necessarily guarunteed in the future. It all hinges on whether or not the Chiefs can continue to pump out the talent on the offensive line.

 

But Willis McGahee was the better pick for the long term solution in my own opinion. His skills in college were on a parallel that superceeds any blue chip draft pick running back since O.J. Simpson. There is no way that you pass up a talent like McGahee. The only question that still remained was his injury, and we are living in a time where recovery from those injuries is a lot better than it was when Gale Sayers was hurt, or even Robert Edwards.

 

If we can get McGahee a decent offensive line, a decent passing attack, and keep him away from the press just enough so that he is happy but not disappointed, i think Willis could potentially have quite a few years of success.

 

It all hinges on this season though. If the Bills are a sub par team where Willis is not the feature or feels the love in Buffalo, he will book for a southern team (Carolina).

[Scraps]

If we are assuming WM is a little better than LJ I'd say the 4 picks difference is totally negligible & if pushed, yes to your question.

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Under those circumstances, yes you'd still pass on LJ for WM? Am I reading that right?

[Dibs]

Under those circumstances, yes you'd still pass on LJ for WM?  Am I reading that right? 

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Yes.....you said WM is a better back, LJ has performed like an all pro.....so, yes I'd say it is worth taking WM 4 places ahead of LJ.

[Lori]

Agreed.

.....KCs OL last year is one of the best....perhaps of all time.

Even with future Hall of Fame LT Willie Roaf missing six games, and the four-player rotation at RT?

 

Am I the only one who remembers Aaron Schobel using and abusing Roaf's replacement, Jordan Black, for two of the Bills' six sacks in the game against the Chiefs? And yet, Johnson ran for 132 yards that day... and if Vermeil/Saunders had kept feeding him the ball instead of trying to force the passing game, the outcome of that game may have been very different.

[Dawgg]

I never said WM was a better back -- I simply said let's say for the sake of ARGUMENT that he is a better back. Even if he was, taking an injured player in the first round, signing him to a big contract and waiting 2 years before you can realize his potential sounds like a stupid move to me, especially when there was a perfectly healthy, capable running back available that was an undisputed first round talent.

 

You are looking through rose-colored glasses, which as fans, we all do from time to time.

 

Yes.....you said WM is a better back, LJ has performed like an all pro.....so, yes I'd say it is worth taking WM 4 places ahead of LJ.

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[Dawgg]

Thanks for injecting facts into this argument.

 

Even with future Hall of Fame LT Willie Roaf missing six games, and the four-player rotation at RT?

 

Am I the only one who remembers Aaron Schobel using and abusing Roaf's replacement, Jordan Black, for two of the Bills' six sacks in the game against the Chiefs? And yet, Johnson ran for 132 yards that day... and if Vermeil/Saunders had kept feeding him the ball instead of trying to force the passing game, the outcome of that game may have been very different.

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[Dibs]

I never said WM was a better back -- I simply said let's say for the sake of ARGUMENT that he is a better back.  Even if he was, taking an injured player in the first round, signing him to a big contract and waiting 2 years before you can realize his potential sounds like a stupid move to me, especially when there was a perfectly healthy, capable running back available that was an undisputed first round talent.

 

You are looking through rose-colored glasses, which as fans, we all do from time to time.

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And for the sake of the argument I took him as the better back.

Please don't lump me into rose coloured glasses territory when it is you who have set up the boundaries of the discussion....i.e. WM being better than LJ.

You are also talking in hindsight. The point I was trying to make was that nobody expected LJ to achieve the level of play he has.....they expected WM (if recovered) to easily reach that level....which in your arguement you state he has(since you state he is better than LJ). A fully healthy WM was a top 5 pick.

Yes it was a gamble to take him. Your question is basically "Was it worth the bet?". Even if he fails I tend to think yes, but in your hypothetical where WM is better than LJ, it is a definite yes.

[Dibs]

Even with future Hall of Fame LT Willie Roaf missing six games, and the four-player rotation at RT?

 

Am I the only one who remembers Aaron Schobel using and abusing Roaf's replacement, Jordan Black, for two of the Bills' six sacks in the game against the Chiefs? And yet, Johnson ran for 132 yards that day... and if Vermeil/Saunders had kept feeding him the ball instead of trying to force the passing game, the outcome of that game may have been very different.

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Point well taken, that 'one of the best' OLines was poorly last year. I was thoughtless saying 'last year' and should have generalized about how good the chiefs line has been in recent years.

That does not mean the point I was making was invalid. Compared to the Bills OL, the Chiefs had an awesome OL. Two top 5 guards. A top 10 center. A top 5 tackle(who played 10 games). We had...um....1 up & comer who started 10 games.

My point obviously is that a better OLine helps a RB produce better numbers.

[Scraps]

Yes.....you said WM is a better back, LJ has performed like an all pro.....so, yes I'd say it is worth taking WM 4 places ahead of LJ.

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I said nothing. It was Dawgg that posed the question. Personally I would not have answered Dawgg's question because I don't like "what if" type questions and it was irrelevant since WM was expected to be a much better back than LJ. WM was supposed to be a LaDainian Tomlinson or Edgerrin James type of back.

 

Furthermore, while you simply focus on the word "better" Dawgg said "slightly better" and he wouldn't recover from his injury for 1 1/2 years. Given that his injury was potentially career ending, I think it would be indefensible to take the "slightly better" damaged goods back 4 slots ahead of someone who could contribute immediately.

 

Your stance smacks of homerism.

[Scraps]

That lack of late round draft picks is total nonsense. A GMs job is to stock the team with talent, under the salary cap, with a combination of youth and experience. There are four ways to get players: Draft them. Sign them during the free agency period. Trade for them. And sign them as street free agents to develop them on the practice squad. It does not matter one iota which of those four you are good or great or bad at. What rounds the drafted players are taken. It only matters what you have at the end of the day.

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Getting good players in the later rounds gives you advantages high round draft picks and free agents do not. You sign them at a very low price and if they turn out to be good players you can negotiate long term contracts with them below market rates. That actually frees up money for acquiring veteran free agents.

[Albany,n.y.]

Completely agree, don't get me wrong!

 

But that's exactly my point Ramius... the question I have is this:

 

Let's say for argument sake McGahee and LJ are similar in skill, maybe give the edge to McGahee slightly.  Is that difference worthy enough for the Bills to pass over LJ (who was perfectly healthy) in favor of Willis, who really needed 1.5 years before he can play like his normal self?

762500[/snapback]

It took LJ longer than McGahee to establish himself. Go back to the middle of 2004, when LJ was backing up Priest Holmes. Around the trading deadline, KC thought he was a bust & rumors were rampant that they'd take a mid-2nd day pick (5-6th round) to get Johnson out of there. He was buried on the bench and disgruntled. How soon everyone forgets.