Defending TD

[Orton's Arm]

Testaverde you say? Correct you are. He has approx. 1700 more career yayds than Drew; this in SIX MORE SEASONS, whereas Drew was drafted in 93; Vinny T. in 87.

Who would be stupid enough to want him? Bill Parcells signed him in 1998, and was 30 minutes away from a superbowl appearance (the jests had the lead at the half).

Yes, longevity is a big factor in terms of yardage compilation, but Bledsoe is clearly in a class above V.T.

 

Holcomb otoh has thrown for all of 37 touchdown passes in his career. Drew threw 43 in the last 2 seasons, both behind beat up lines.

 

You can certainly try, but imo it is not possible to compare the ability of these qbs. One has a shot for Canton, like it or not. The other might even be traded away from a 5-11 team, like it or not.

 

Oh, and thanks for the football conversation. 

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It's been nice chatting with you too. You're right in saying Bledsoe has had a lot of TD passes these last two years. He's also had a lot of pass attempts. Over the last two years, Bledsoe has averaged 0.045 TD passes per pass attempt. In other words, about one out of every 22 Bledsoe passes has gone for a TD. Over the course of his career, Holcomb has averaged 0.046 TD passes per pass attempt. About one out of every 22 Holcomb passes has gone for a TD.

 

As for the Canton stuff, I strongly believe it would be a mistake to put Bledsoe in Canton. Dave Krieg ranks pretty well on that yardage list too, and I don't see him getting into Canton. Yes, career yardage totals do matter in a Canton discussion. But if the yards per pass attempt stat isn't there--which it isn't for Bledsoe--and if you don't see the guy taking over a game very often at all, I don't see how you could enshrine him. Maybe back in the late '90s Bledsoe could win games with his arm. But that was a long time ago.

 

IIRC, the Cowboys signed Bledsoe for pretty close to the vet minimum. I'm pretty sure players like Holcomb and even Nall are making more. In a free market, prices get bid up or down depending on the perceived value of the underlying good or service. At this stage in his career, the perceived value of Bledsoe's play is low.

[Orton's Arm]

You would figure that the benefit of hindsight would cure some people.  Antowain Smith was a unidimensional back, who fit in very well with NE's play, since they just needed a RB who could simply pound away yardage to waste the clock. 

Yes, and Travis Henry doesn't fit that description at all.

[Bill from NYC]

>>>>>IIRC, the Cowboys signed Bledsoe for pretty close to the vet minimum. I'm pretty sure players like Holcomb and even Nall are making more.<<<<<

 

Nonsense! NFL minimum? Please provide a link.

[Orton's Arm]

>>>> Take Kurt Warner. After having been released by the Rams, Warner has never averaged fewer than 7.23 yards per pass attempt, nor a qb rating lower than 85.8. Does that make Warner a more productive quarterback than Bledsoe at this stage of his career? Absolutely.<<<<

 

Warner flat out sucks. Since 2002, Warner has tossed 21 TDs and 25 ints.  Drew threw for more TDs in 05. Warner is more productive than Bledsoe?        Congrats, you have reached the stage of absurd.

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You seem to be forgetting a few things. The most obvious is that Bledsoe cost the Bills a first round pick, while Warner didn't cost his teams any draft choices at all. Secondly, Warner was benched because the Giants had used the first overall pick on a quarterback, and wanted to see what he could do. But when the Cardinals gave him a chance, he played well enough during his ten starts to unseat a younger player, and to earn a long-term contract. If you're just looking at raw numbers, obviously a guy who's playing is going to be getting more yards and TDs than a guy sitting on the bench. But when given the opportunity what can a guy produce? That's where looking at yards or TDs per attempt comes in handy.

[Orton's Arm]

>>>>>IIRC, the Cowboys signed Bledsoe for pretty close to the vet minimum. I'm pretty sure players like Holcomb and even Nall are making more.<<<<<

 

Nonsense! NFL minimum? Please provide a link.

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I messed up. He was given a three year deal with a $2 million bonus.

[Bill from NYC]

I messed up.  He was given a three year deal with a $2 million bonus.

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What was the total, do you know?

[Bill from NYC]

You seem to be forgetting a few things.  The most obvious is that Bledsoe cost the Bills a first round pick, while Warner didn't cost his teams any draft choices at all. 

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Just in the spirit of "keeping things real," would you concede the point that the #1 was in a future year, which is a big difference.

[Ramius]

What was the total, do you know?

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I believe the total was 3 years, 12-14 million. not exactly chump change. Remember this too: you are arguing with someone who calls themself Holcombs arm, and has yet to ever present a reasonable, logical explanation of anything.

 

Hell, he ignores the fact that kurt warner has not played more than 10 games in a season since 2001. He ignores the fact that holcomb has accomplished nothing of any significance in 10+ years in the league.

 

I'm not as not as big a fan of Bledsoe as you are, but IMO, it was the right move at the right time, and TD did a piss poor job of assembling the proper pieces ot fit around bledsoe. Drew's limitations are well known, so if you are goign to acquire him, why not put the necessary components around him?

 

Bledsoe still has the stigma of not being able to perform in the clutch when the chips are down, and it is true that Belichick owns the guy. That being said, i agree with you he's probably going to make into canton. Whether he deserves it is up in the air, but the guy has performed at a high level for 3 different teams over 13+ years now.You cant just dismiss that. whether people like it or not, bad QB's dont just rack up 40K passing yards.

[The Senator]

What was the total, do you know?

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Contract Details

 

The Cowboys signed Bledsoe to a three-year deal on February 23, 2005. The Dallas Morning News reports that the deal is worth roughly $14 million and included a $2 million signing bonus.

[GG]

Yes, and Travis Henry doesn't fit that description at all. 

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He fits it much better than Smith, and he especially fit it better than Smith in '01 (not least for his ability not to fall backwards on firts contact with an opposing uniform).

 

Facts have rarely been your strongsuit. Now we can add memory to that list.

[Bill from NYC]

I believe the total was 3 years, 12-14 million. not exactly chump change. Remember this too: you are arguing with someone who calls themself Holcombs arm, and has yet to ever present a reasonable, logical explanation of anything.

 

Hell, he ignores the fact that kurt warner has not played more than 10 games in a season since 2001. He ignores the fact that holcomb has accomplished nothing of any significance in 10+ years in the league.

 

I'm not as not as big a fan of Bledsoe as you are, but IMO, it was the right move at the right time, and TD did a piss poor job of assembling the proper pieces ot fit around bledsoe. Drew's limitations are well known, so if you are goign to acquire him, why not put the necessary components around him?

 

Bledsoe still has the stigma of not being able to perform in the clutch when the chips are down, and it is true that Belichick owns the guy. That being said, i agree with you he's probably going to make into canton. Whether he deserves it is up in the air, but the guy has performed at a high level for 3 different teams over 13+ years now.You cant just dismiss that. whether people like it or not, bad QB's dont just rack up 40K passing yards.

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Hey R-man, thanks for that post. It was extremely fair and impartial.

Btw, I am not making an iron clad claim that Drew will be enshrined to Canton. Much will probably hinge on what he does this season. But, if he does somehow take Dallas to the superbowl (however unlikely), I would make him a virtual lock for the HOF, and he would be deserving imo.

 

Btw, 14 mil IS quite a way off from making less than Nall and Holcomb.

[dry martini]

These types of threads always make me wonder if my age is affecting my memory.

 

Say what you will about particular pos/negs about TD's personnel decisions, but I have always considered his stay to be a positive for the organization. My memory is of a guy who came to the Bills when it looked like disaster was around the corner. An end of year collapse (primarily injury related), QB controversy, front office communication break-downs (RW-JB, and a coach with no headset - ok, kidding on that one, a bit), and a very serious cap issue. Ralph needed to inject a combination of hatchet man and rebuilding man and TD fit the bill perfectly. He managed to not only solve the club's financial situation, but did it in a way that brought the fans back. Indeed, in that respect, the Bledsoe trade was genius. It brought us instant national credibility and, more importantly, hope. The fans came in droves and talk of LA (credible or not) disappeared.

 

Moreover, I think his draft picks are no worse (or better) then other top GMs. Some real class and some busts. However, Mr. Arm does make a point about the lack of top picks on O-line players. Although it is simply not fair to bring up Mike Williams, as TD was hailed a wise man on draft day taking Mike "character-guy" Williams over Bryant "held out until November and sailor man" McKinney (who would Marv have picked?), as most rated the two dead even as far as ability (personally, I was a big BM fan), TDs failure to go for more O-line types in 03 and 04, or better free agents was a weakness, which is frankly, surprising.

 

Finally, a brief word on coaching. Too many relate the TD - Cowher relationship with a tendency by TD to pick weak coaches. An interesting extrapolation, but nothing more. TD wanted the best defensive mind in football for his first hire. Lewis was that man and he basically turned his back on TD. Nothing TD could do about that. With Lewis out of the picture, his selection of unproven Williams over unproven Fox can't be viewed at the time as wrong-headed. Who knows, if Fox comes to Buffalo and was saddled with Mike Williams (and don't kid yourself, we had to take an O-line guy in 02, just research the pre-draft posts from this board), while Gregg got the Panthers and Julius Peppers a year later, how would their fortunes be different today? As for Mularky, an up and coming guy who had developed a solid offensive reputation was what most wanted, although we all wanted the guy from Boston. Yes, he should have taken CW, but Mularky at least demonstrated that TD wanted the new, next big thing, instead of the tired reject.

 

So, TD wasn't as bad as he is portrayed here.

 

Having said all that, I will never, NEVER forgive the idiot for letting Pat Williams leave. It was bad enough that he undervalued Pat, but he had witnessed just what effect Pat's loss might have on a top rated defense having had to let the S.S. Washington steam out of port upon taking over. Keeping Pat should have been a top priority, but he allowed himself to get distracted by other matters.

[ganesh]

Having said all that, I will never, NEVER forgive the idiot for letting Pat Williams leave.  It was bad enough that he undervalued Pat, but he had witnessed just what effect Pat's loss might have on a top rated defense having had to let the S.S. Washington steam out of port upon taking over.  Keeping Pat should have been a top priority, but he allowed himself to get distracted by other matters.

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I disagree...Not signing Pat was done with protecting the cap in mind....You cannot pay 5M a year for a 32 year old DL who had been in the league for 8-10 years.

The not signing Pat should be really evaluated after 4 years when his current vikes contract runs out...If he played the 4 years at a high level, then TDs move backfired, otherwise he was correct in not re-signing him.

 

I think the lack of Pat in last years defense is way over-valued. Last years defense missed Pat, TKO (the team leader), injuries to Milloy and the backups

couldn't keep up the intensity. It was not just the loss of a single player.

Also, I think playing the poor AFC West the previous year gave this defense false hopes.....Finally, the vets on this defense spent more time pouting about who should be the QB of the team rather than taking care of business, which ultimately let to the downfall of this team for the 2005 season.

[Scraps]

Moreover, I think his draft picks are no worse (or better) then other top GMs.  Some real class and some busts.  However, Mr. Arm does make a point about the lack of top picks on O-line players.  Although it is simply not fair to bring up Mike Williams, as TD was hailed a wise man on draft day taking Mike "character-guy" Williams over Bryant "held out until November and sailor man" McKinney (who would Marv have picked?), as most rated the two dead even as far as ability (personally, I was a big BM fan), TDs failure to go for more O-line types in 03 and 04, or better free agents was a weakness, which is frankly, surprising.

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McKinney really gets a bad rap over that "hold out". The fact is that he was being lowballed, said he would sign when given a contract comensurate with his slotting and did just that when the Vikings finally caved.

 

Outside of McGee, has any of his mid to late round draft picks amounted to anything?

[Kelly the Dog]

Outside of McGee, has any of his mid to late round draft picks amounted to anything?

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That lack of late round draft picks is total nonsense. A GMs job is to stock the team with talent, under the salary cap, with a combination of youth and experience. There are four ways to get players: Draft them. Sign them during the free agency period. Trade for them. And sign them as street free agents to develop them on the practice squad. It does not matter one iota which of those four you are good or great or bad at. What rounds the drafted players are taken. It only matters what you have at the end of the day.

 

All great teams are verious combinations of those four things. There are certain years where teams will have a lot more of one than another. Some teams are particularly good at one of those things, like the Steelers and drafts (and TD was part of that a long while). But to criticize a guy for not doing one of the four is totally inconsequential, IMO. He deserves a lot of criticism for the total package of players however, and the hiring of coaches to make them successful. His record of free agents is pretty damn good but it also means little because of the overall roster.

[Orton's Arm]

Just in the spirit of "keeping things real," would you concede the point that the #1 was in a future year, which is a big difference.

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Normally you'd be right. But in this case, the 2003 draft was a lot stronger than the 2002 draft. Here are some players who were taken around the time the Bills would have had a pick had it not been for the Bledsoe trade, or a little lower:

 

- Troy Polamalu, SS. I know you'd love it if the Bills had used a first on a SS.

- George Foster, T. Denver's starting right tackle.

- Rex Grossman, QB. A Bledsoe-like career average of 6.68 yards per attempt, plus he's still with the team that drafted him.

- Dallas Clark, TE, Colts

- Richard Seymour, DE, Patriots

 

And had the Bills traded up a few slots, they could have had Jordan Gross, the starting right tackle for the Panthers. Or had they traded down, they could have picked up Eric Steinbach at the top of the second round.

[Orton's Arm]

Contract Details

 

The Cowboys signed Bledsoe to a three-year deal on February 23, 2005. The Dallas Morning News reports that the deal is worth roughly $14 million and included a $2 million signing bonus.

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Thanks for the information. Do you happen to know the details of this? For instance, does Bledsoe get $2 million in salary his first year, $2 million his second year, and $8 million his third year? If so, it's really a 2 year, $6 million deal. But even if that's the case, I agree it's a much better contract than I'd thought.

[Bill from NYC]

  Or had they traded down, they could have picked up Eric Steinbach at the top of the second round.

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The Bills should have taken Steinbach even if it meant not trading down. Ruben was getting old, thus the need for a LG.

The 2003 draft was a double edged sword.....

 

TD was a genius for getting a 1st round pick for Peerless Price, yet he was an arrogant douchebag for thinking that the lowly Bills were good enough to wait more than a year for MaGahee when there was a great OG such as Steinbach available.

[Orton's Arm]

Say what you will about particular pos/negs about TD's personnel decisions, but I have always considered his stay to be a positive for the organization. 

Thanks for the intelligent post. I want to discuss one of the things you wrote: the coaching situation.

 

When TD got here, the Bills had a well-coached 3-4 defense, but a poorly coached offense and special teams. TD should have brought in an offensive-oriented coach who would have left the defensive coaching staff and defensive scheme intact. Instead, his final four coaching selections all came from the defensive side of the football. The hire of Gregg Williams/Jerry Gray led to a decline in the quality of the Bills' defensive coaching, while doing absolutely nothing to solve the coaching problems on offense.

[Kelly the Dog]

Normally you'd be right.  But in this case, the 2003 draft was a lot stronger than the 2002 draft.  Here are some players who were taken around the time the Bills would have had a pick had it not been for the Bledsoe trade, or a little lower:

 

- Troy Polamalu, SS.  I know you'd love it if the Bills had used a first on a SS. 

- George Foster, T.  Denver's starting right tackle.

- Rex Grossman, QB.  A Bledsoe-like career average of 6.68 yards per attempt, plus he's still with the team that drafted him.

- Dallas Clark, TE, Colts

- Richard Seymour, DE, Patriots

 

And had the Bills traded up a few slots, they could have had Jordan Gross, the starting right tackle for the Panthers.  Or had they traded down, they could have picked up Eric Steinbach at the top of the second round.

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Marcus Trufant

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Nnamdi Asomugha

Tyler Brayton

Boss Bailey

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Al Johnson

Rashean Mathis

E.J. Henderson

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Pisa Tinoisamoa

Taylor Jacobs

Bethel Johnson

Drayton Florence

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