Defending TD

[Dibs]

For my 1000th post I thought I would add a bit of controversy to the wall.

Many here are starting to get enthused about the upcoming season with most predicting 7, 8 or 9 wins for us. Considering there is a totally new(apart from ST) coaching regime, this implies that the talent level on the team is not too bad & in fact could be quite good.

This being the situation, do all you people realize you are basically saying that TD did at the very least a reasonable job of player talent evaluation?

That's right, TD left this team with a lot of decent-good players & a young core of potential greats.

Let's look at TDs starters for the 2006 season.

7 of 11 offensive

9 of 11 defensive

3 of 3 specialists

 

1st round picks....4

QB Losman: Unproven but this off-season has give many here reason for hope. Shows glimmers of greatness.

RB McGahee: The only player apart from Spikes that the media recognize as a legitimate stud.

WR Evans: Has shown he is the real deal....pro bowl this year?

CB Clements: PRO BOWLER

 

2nd round picks....2

DE Schoebel: Just under pro bowl level.

DE Kelsay: OK to this point, could step up in the new system.

 

3rd round picks....2

DT Anderson: 3rd year & looks well suited to new system. Will hold his own.

OLB Crowell: Very solid player.

 

4th-7th round picks....1

CB/KR McGee: PRO BOWLER

 

Free Agents....8

FB Shelton: Looked great in 2004

RG Villarrial: Super solid(when uninjured)

LT Gandy: Most believe was maligned last season, showing himself to be very solid.

ILB Fletcher: Just under pro bowl level.

OLB Spikes: PRO BOWLER

FS Vincent: Led the team in INTs last season.

K Lindell: Very Solid

LS Schneck: PRO BOWLER

 

UDFA....2

RT Peters: Up & coming star.

P Moorman: PRO BOWLER

 

I know I've been a bit rose coloured glasses here & I have also been a little disingenuous perhaps but.....there is no escaping the fact that TD was not too bad at evaluating talent.

O.K. Fire Away!

[frogger]

But take into consideration we kept all of our rookies we drafted, and for the most part every free agent.

 

There is no defending TD!

[generaLee83]

For my 1000th post I thought I would add a bit of controversy to the wall.

Many here are starting to get enthused about the upcoming season with most predicting 7, 8 or 9 wins for us.  Considering there is a totally new(apart from ST) coaching regime, this implies that the talent level on the team is not too bad & in fact could be quite good. 

This being the situation, do all you people realize you are basically saying that TD did at the very least a reasonable job of player talent evaluation?

That's right, TD left this team with a lot of decent-good players & a young core of potential greats.

Let's look at TDs starters for the 2006 season.

7 of 11 offensive

9 of 11 defensive

3 of 3 specialists

 

1st round picks....4

QB Losman:  Unproven but this off-season has give many here reason for hope.  Shows glimmers of greatness.

RB McGahee:  The only player apart from Spikes that the media recognize as a legitimate stud.

WR Evans:  Has shown he is the real deal....pro bowl this year?

CB Clements:  PRO BOWLER

 

2nd round picks....2

DE Schoebel:  Just under pro bowl level.

DE Kelsay:  OK to this point, could step up in the new system.

 

3rd round picks....2

DT Anderson:  3rd year & looks well suited to new system.  Will hold his own.

OLB  Crowell:  Very solid player.

 

4th-7th round picks....1

CB/KR McGee:  PRO BOWLER

 

Free Agents....8

FB Shelton:  Looked great in 2004

RG Villarrial:  Super solid(when uninjured)

LT Gandy:  Most believe was maligned last season, showing himself to be very solid.

ILB Fletcher: Just under pro bowl level.

OLB Spikes: PRO BOWLER

FS Vincent:  Led the team in INTs last season.

K Lindell:  Very Solid

LS Schneck:  PRO BOWLER

 

UDFA....2

RT Peters:  Up & coming star.

P Moorman: PRO BOWLER

 

I know I've been a bit rose coloured glasses here & I have also been a little disingenuous perhaps but.....there is no escaping the fact that TD was not too bad at evaluating talent.

O.K.  Fire Away!

760398[/snapback]

 

 

An absolute great post. TD had some very good drafts. I think it was his "meddling" last year that ticked off alot of fans. Also his failure to address the OL through the draft the last two seasons.

[BillnutinHouston]

I was going to post something very similar yesterday. If this squad does do fairly well, it is in truth a vindication of TD (but Marv will get all the credit). NFL insiders will recognize this, but of course the fans won't because their hearts are with Marv.

[The Senator]

For my 1000th post I thought I would add a bit of controversy to the wall.

Many here are starting to get enthused about the upcoming season with most predicting 7, 8 or 9 wins for us.  Considering there is a totally new(apart from ST) coaching regime, this implies that the talent level on the team is not too bad & in fact could be quite good. 

This being the situation, do all you people realize you are basically saying that TD did at the very least a reasonable job of player talent evaluation?

That's right, TD left this team with a lot of decent-good players & a young core of potential greats.

Let's look at TDs starters for the 2006 season.

7 of 11 offensive

9 of 11 defensive

3 of 3 specialists

 

1st round picks....4

QB Losman:  Unproven but this off-season has give many here reason for hope.  Shows glimmers of greatness.

RB McGahee:  The only player apart from Spikes that the media recognize as a legitimate stud.

WR Evans:  Has shown he is the real deal....pro bowl this year?

CB Clements:  PRO BOWLER

 

2nd round picks....2

DE Schoebel:  Just under pro bowl level.

DE Kelsay:  OK to this point, could step up in the new system.

 

3rd round picks....2

DT Anderson:  3rd year & looks well suited to new system.  Will hold his own.

OLB  Crowell:  Very solid player.

 

4th-7th round picks....1

CB/KR McGee:  PRO BOWLER

 

Free Agents....8

FB Shelton:  Looked great in 2004

RG Villarrial:  Super solid(when uninjured)

LT Gandy:  Most believe was maligned last season, showing himself to be very solid.

ILB Fletcher: Just under pro bowl level.

OLB Spikes: PRO BOWLER

FS Vincent:  Led the team in INTs last season.

K Lindell:  Very Solid

LS Schneck:  PRO BOWLER

 

UDFA....2

RT Peters:  Up & coming star.

P Moorman: PRO BOWLER

 

I know I've been a bit rose coloured glasses here & I have also been a little disingenuous perhaps but.....there is no escaping the fact that TD was not too bad at evaluating talent.

O.K.  Fire Away!

760398[/snapback]

Congrats on the milestone! (When do we learn the 'secret handshake'?)

 

Actually, I agree that some of Donahoe's moves border on genius - particularly the McGahee pick. The Losman trade will be much heralded after this season too, I think. As the saying goes, "Even a blind squirrel finds a acorn, once in a while!"

 

Of course, for every great - or even decent - draft pick, I'm sure we can find a disasterous one, i.e., Mike Williams. I think Donahoe's fatal flaws were ego and insecurity. He absolutely killed us with two disasterous head coaching decisions, when good, experienced head coaches were clearly available - i.e., Lewis, Weiss, Saban, etc. Hell, I was crusading for Marv Levy 3 years ago!

 

Donahoe was just too insecure to bring on an experienced, competent head coach, and his ego let him believe that he could show the football world his brilliance by taking a young coordinator and turning him into a winning head coach with a winning program. Obviously he failed miserably in that regard, and the Bills franchise and fans paid the price.

 

But as Jack Kemp is fond of saying, "I've never seen an opportunity go by, where a bigger and better one didn't come along." Thru Donahoe's failures, we now have a competent front office and coaching staff, and a real opportunity to return to the dynasty level of earlier eras.

 

Hic Finis Est.

[jahbonas]

[Five years of draft choices and free agent acquisitions is going to result in some quality players. But how about going 0-2 on hiring of coaches????? We see now how key that decision is and he whiffed on both....and did so for all the wrong reasons...his requirement was a coach who was not a threat to him...surprise surprise this led to 2 poor hires.

 

You wish for a more fair comparison?? When TD took over we were very similar to carolina Panthers...they had the #2 overall pick and we had #4. They hired John Fox and TD chose Greg Williams...they have been a playoff team and now are top Superbowl contenders while we are on our 3rd coaching staff and hoping ofr a 500 season where we miss the playoffs for the 6th year in a row.

Please save it....TD was awful.

[Tortured Soul]

[Five years of draft choices and free agent acquisitions is going to result in some quality players. But how about going 0-2 on hiring of coaches????? We see now how key that decision is and he whiffed on both....and did so for all the wrong reasons...his requirement was a coach who was not a threat to him...surprise surprise this led to 2 poor hires.

 

You wish for a more fair comparison?? When TD took over we were very similar to carolina Panthers...they had the #2 overall pick and we had #4. They hired John Fox and TD chose Greg Williams...they have been a playoff team and now are top Superbowl contenders while we are on our 3rd coaching staff and hoping ofr a 500 season where we miss the playoffs for the 6th year in a row.

Please save it....TD was awful.

760420[/snapback]

Can't let you get away with that one. TD took over an 8-8 team that made the playoffs the two prior years.

 

Dibs, congratulations. I think that considering the optimistic view on this board (and one not shared by many "experts") is 7-9 wins, that's not saying much for the TD regime. If we win the Superbowl this year, then yeah, Id send him a thank you note. But say we win 8 games, then I think it is fair to chalk up a 3-win improvement more to Marv's changes (9 draft picks and half a dozen FAs) than Donahoe.

[Lurker]

The Bills went 31-49 during Donahoe's tenure; the 31 wins tied with Cleveland for the third fewest in the NFL during that span. Besides Houston, which joined the league in 2002, the Bills are the only AFC team since 2001 that has failed to make the playoffs.

 

It's nice to draft a few good players, but the NFL is all about team. Players #15-53 plus good coaching are what make the difference between contenders and pretenders.

[Shamrock]

For my 1000th post I thought I would add a bit of controversy to the wall.

Many here are starting to get enthused about the upcoming season with most predicting 7, 8 or 9 wins for us.  Considering there is a totally new(apart from ST) coaching regime, this implies that the talent level on the team is not too bad & in fact could be quite good. 

This being the situation, do all you people realize you are basically saying that TD did at the very least a reasonable job of player talent evaluation?

That's right, TD left this team with a lot of decent-good players & a young core of potential greats.

Let's look at TDs starters for the 2006 season.

7 of 11 offensive

9 of 11 defensive

3 of 3 specialists

 

1st round picks....4

QB Losman:  Unproven but this off-season has give many here reason for hope.  Shows glimmers of greatness.

RB McGahee:  The only player apart from Spikes that the media recognize as a legitimate stud.

WR Evans:  Has shown he is the real deal....pro bowl this year?

CB Clements:  PRO BOWLER

 

2nd round picks....2

DE Schoebel:  Just under pro bowl level.

DE Kelsay:  OK to this point, could step up in the new system.

 

3rd round picks....2

DT Anderson:  3rd year & looks well suited to new system.  Will hold his own.

OLB  Crowell:  Very solid player.

 

4th-7th round picks....1

CB/KR McGee:  PRO BOWLER

 

Free Agents....8

FB Shelton:  Looked great in 2004

RG Villarrial:  Super solid(when uninjured)

LT Gandy:  Most believe was maligned last season, showing himself to be very solid.

ILB Fletcher: Just under pro bowl level.

OLB Spikes: PRO BOWLER

FS Vincent:  Led the team in INTs last season.

K Lindell:  Very Solid

LS Schneck:  PRO BOWLER

 

UDFA....2

RT Peters:  Up & coming star.

P Moorman: PRO BOWLER

 

I know I've been a bit rose coloured glasses here & I have also been a little disingenuous perhaps but.....there is no escaping the fact that TD was not too bad at evaluating talent.

O.K.  Fire Away!

760398[/snapback]

 

I guess it could be argued that we conduct this review next year

Give Marv at least 2 years to re-tool, rework contracts, rework rosters, evaluate return of draft investment as is Mike Williams etc...if required

but I understand the early evaluation

The Peerless trade was a great move.

TD whiffed though in judging coaching talent.

There's no denying that

[John Adams]

1st round picks....4

QB Losman:  Unproven but this off-season has give many here reason for hope.  Shows glimmers of greatness.

 

"Glimmers of greatness"? Whatchu talkin' 'bout Willis? I like the guy. I want him to succeed. Cut come on. He had one good quarter last season. He's a long ways from average.

 

RB McGahee:  The only player apart from Spikes that the media recognize as a legitimate stud.

 

Umm. I'd say the media widely recognizes him a s a loud-mouth underacheiver. Most of the media loves to mock him. He's done little to warrant much favorable press except make a successful comeback.

 

WR Evans:  Has shown he is the real deal....pro bowl this year?

 

Here's where you should use your "glimmers of greatness" line. He's never been a number 1 WR. This year he gets his shot. As a number 13 pick (right?), hed better be good.

 

CB Clements:  PRO BOWLER

 

Nate was burned more than he looked pro-bowler last season. He's TD's best pick besides Moorman, but he's not as good as he thinks he is.

 

2nd round picks....2

DE Schoebel:  Just under pro bowl level.

DE Kelsay:  OK to this point, could step up in the new system.

 

Where are the rest of the 2nd round picks. Kelsay is not good. Schoebel is.

 

3rd round picks....2

DT Anderson:  3rd year & looks well suited to new system.  Will hold his own.

OLB  Crowell:  Very solid player.

 

 

Where are the rest of the 3rd round picks?

 

Crowell looks good. Anderson hasn't done squat.

 

4th-7th round picks....1

CB/KR McGee:  PRO BOWLER

 

 

1 good player out of what--20+?? That's atrocious.

[John Adams]

Wait...did you skip a whole year of TD's draft history?

 

2002 1 1 4 4 Mike Williams T Texas

2 2 4 36 Josh Reed WR Louisiana State

3 2 29 61 Ryan Denney DE Brigham Young

4 3 32 97 Coy Wire DB Stanford

5 5 4 139 Justin Bannan DT Colorado

6 6 4 176 Kevin Thomas DB UNLV

7 7 4 215 Mike Pucillo G Auburn

8 7 39 250 Rodney Wright WR Fresno State

9 7 41 252 Jarrett Ferguson RB Virginia Tech

10 7 49 260 Dominique Stevenson LB Tennessee

 

What disaster.

[John Adams]

Do I count this right? TD drafted 6 starters in 5 years? It's a miracle the Bills were 5-11 last year.

[PromoTheRobot]

I can buy all the parts to a race car...but I have no idea how to put them together and build a winner.

 

Getting talent is half the battle, maybe even less than half. Making it work is the hard part, and that's where Ol' Whitey gets a big fat freakin' F!!!! Marv Levy is the master. All those media douchebags making fun of his age are only showing how little they understand about the sport they cover.

 

PTR

[Albany,n.y.]

I've never bought into the TD hired weak coaches to control them theory.

I think it's more likely 3 things:

1) Ralph didn't want to pay huge $ for a head coach

2) TD got burned by Marvin Lewis, partially due to reason #1. Lewis lost interest when he found out what Ralph was willing to pay for a rookie head coach. On top of that, Lewis was under the (wrong) assumption that he was going to get the Cleveland job and was really jolted when Cleveland hired Butch Davis. As a result, Lewis basically blew off the Bills, leaving TD to choose between John Fox and Gregg Williams-remember, we were late to hire because we were waiting on Lewis. Now once again this is my theory, but I believe Fox had no chance with Ralph, because even though they are technically rivals, Ralph & Al Davis are pretty tight. Ralph even bailed Davis out & helped save the Raiders in the early AFL days. John Fox pulled a John Rauch when he was D coach of the Raiders-he quit Al Davis in training camp because he got tired of his meddling. Ralph wanted no part of a guy who quit on Al Davis.

So the Bills were left with Gregg Williams as the "Last Coach Standing" and coach disaster #1 took place.

3) When it was TD's turn to hire another head coach, he went the rookie route again because his ego still drove him to prove that he could find the next great head coach, plus he was limited by Ralph's rookie HC budget. However, this time he was fighting internal demons since his last choice bombed. So even though he was looking for greatness, he tempered his selection to avoid hiring someone he didn't know-like he'd done with Gregg. He chose old Pittsburgh croney Mike Mularkey and really believed he would straighten out Drew Bledsoe, but also hedged his bet by drafting a young QB for Mularkey and staff to work with if Bledsoe tanked. The problem here was Mularkey was just about as bad as Gregg Williams, and in the locker room wasn't even as good as Williams-who had his players' support right to the end. The Mularkey hiring doomed TD.

This is why I don't buy into the weak coach theory and I never will.

[loadofmularkey]

Yes Donahoe did make some sexy draft day moves (Bledsoe trade, McGahee, trade for Losman pick), found a few diamonds in the rough (McGee, Peters, Crowell) and brought in some high-profile free agents (Spikes, Milloy, Adams).

 

However, IMO these three glaring faults practically overshadow the positives:

 

1. O-LINE -- He failed when it came to fixing the O-line, plain and simple. It didn't come without trying though. He used the 4th overall pick in '02 on MW, who was supposed to be the cornerstone of the line; the franchise tackle for the next however many seasons. I still think Villarrial was a solid pickup. However, trying to plug guys like Gandy, Teague and Anderson in there was a disaster. If only "Next Man Up" by John Feinstein would've come out a year earlier, he might've known to stay away from Anderson with a 75 and a half ft pole. He lucked into Jason Peters. Greg Jerman and Justin Geisinger were terrible draft picks. Maybe cutting Ross Tucker was not such a hot idea.

 

2. HEAD COACHES -- This really needs no explanation. He was trying to find the next Cowher (only not quite as powerful when it came to the off-the-field stuff) and ended up...well, you all saw. The thing is--thanks to his success in Washington--GW will probably get another shot somehwere, someday. And his experience in Buffalo might've taught him a few things (like how to be a HC) and he just may end up being successful. I just wish Buffalo wasn't his training ground for three years.

 

3. EGO/EMOTIONS -- He may have mastered the ins and outs of a salary cap, but one thing ole Whitey never did quite get a handle on was how to keep his emotions in check. I believe (and maybe I'm nuts) that the number of times a GM is supposed to insult his fan base is...zero. TD did it twice in two years. Granted, both were probably intended more for the media but both came out horribly wrong and ended ruffling a lot of feathers amongst the fans. "Sometimes I'm embarrased to be a part of this community" and "If you want to be a jerk, call the other radio station". The last one maybe wasn't bad as the first, but no matter what you think about WGR there are people who listen and call the station who also happen to pay money on TD's product. They felt they were lumped into the "jerk" category and they were pissed. You'd think someone with so much PR savvy might've realized this...but he couldn't help himself.

 

Keep in mind this was all going on at the same time as the EM debacle when Uncle Ralph had to fly in from Detroit and scold everyone and it also right after the disaster in Miami. The already-POed fan base wasn't ready for another shot across the bow from the GM.

 

Honorable mention for this category: Telling us to save our postage in regard to letter-writing calling for GW's job.

 

Honorable, honorable mention: His first year in Buffalo he made a point over telling the fans that "You'll never see my face in the media guide". And he was right...until last season. When a nicely done bio with a glossy picture of Smiling Tom somehow made in there. Don't know the particulars behind it, don't know if he had anything to do with it, all I know is...it took a few years, but his face found its way into the media guide eventually.

 

Honrable, honorable, honorable mention: Defending Mike Williams this past offseason to his real media buddies. Seriously? Really?? TD, give it up my man.

 

Whew.

 

That's why I'm not a TD fan.

[jahbonas]

I've never bought into the TD hired weak coaches to control them theory. 

I think it's more likely 3 things:

1) Ralph didn't want to pay huge $ for a head coach

2) TD got burned by Marvin Lewis, partially due to reason #1.  Lewis lost interest when he found out what Ralph was willing to pay for a rookie head coach.  On top of that, Lewis was under the (wrong) assumption that he was going to get the Cleveland job and was really jolted when Cleveland hired Butch Davis.  As a result, Lewis basically blew off the Bills, leaving TD to choose between John Fox and Gregg Williams-remember, we were late to hire because we were waiting on Lewis.  Now once again this is my theory, but I believe Fox had no chance with Ralph, because even though they are technically rivals, Ralph & Al Davis are pretty tight.  Ralph even bailed Davis out & helped save the Raiders in the early AFL days.  John Fox pulled a John Rauch when he was D coach of the Raiders-he quit Al Davis in training camp because he got tired of his meddling.  Ralph wanted no part of a guy who quit on Al Davis. 

So the Bills were left with Gregg Williams as the "Last Coach Standing"  and coach disaster #1 took place.

3) When it was TD's turn to hire another head coach, he went the rookie route again because his ego still drove him to prove that he could find the next great head coach, plus he was limited by Ralph's rookie HC budget.  However, this time he was fighting internal demons since his last choice bombed.  So even though he was looking for greatness, he tempered his selection to avoid hiring someone he didn't know-like he'd done with Gregg.  He chose old Pittsburgh croney Mike Mularkey and really believed he would straighten out Drew Bledsoe, but also hedged his bet by drafting a young QB for Mularkey and staff to work with if Bledsoe tanked.  The problem here was Mularkey was just about as bad as Gregg Williams, and in the locker room wasn't even as good as Williams-who had his players' support right to the end.  The Mularkey hiring doomed TD. 

This is why I don't buy into the weak coach theory and I never will.

760438[/snapback]

 

I didn't realize a guy like Dick Juaron was such an expensive hire !!???

TD was a control freak...and afraid of anyone to question his authority

 

I grant you TD may have been limited by ralph's purse strings...but so was Marv when he hired Juaron and so was polian when he hird Levy....

Bottom line is TD hired 2 coaches who failed miserably !

[Nanker]

If TD left such a legacy of great talent here Dibs, then why did Marv cut 20 of TD's hires and replace them with 20 of his own. That's nearly a 38% turnover in one year. It took TD 5 years to clean house of Butler's men and most here were in favor of the changes. At this rate it'll take Marv less than 3 years to overhaul TD's mess.

 

If The Bills take it to the House this year or next, I'll give TD as much credit as TD gave Butler for leaving him the talent to springboard to his 8-8 second year, which is ZERO.

[AJ1]

Defending TD is like defending cancer.

 

 

You don't defend it; you get rid of it.

[Nanker]

Defending TD is like defending cancer.

760476[/snapback]

 

Exactly.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

If TD left such a legacy of great talent here Dibs, then why did Marv cut 20 of TD's hires and replace them with 20 of his own. That's nearly a 38% turnover in one year. It took TD 5 years to clean house of Butler's men and most here were in favor of the changes. At this rate it'll take Marv less than 3 years to overhaul TD's mess.

 

If The Bills take it to the House this year or next, I'll give TD as much credit as TD gave Butler for leaving him the talent to springboard to his 8-8 second year, which is ZERO.

I'll thank TD for not FUBAR'ing the cap when he left like Butler did. And TD was fired whereas Butler bolted.