Bills 25th on the money list

[MadBuffaloDisease]

The TV contracts added approximately 30-35 million to each team this year more than last year. Ralph saw an extra dime. He saw approximately 300-350 million extra dimes. Teams will start off the season this year making millions before one ticket or beer or hot dog or parking spot or luxury box or jersey or hat is sold. All they have to pay for is the running of the team, which can't be more than 10-15 million I would guess.

Give me a link on that "$30-35M to each team this year more than last year."

 

And here's a thought. If you live within the viewing area, instead of complaining about Ralph threatening to move the team, GO see a game, or convince other Bills fans to go see a game, so that the stadium sells out, a waiting list is generated, and then Ralph can raise ticket and gameday prices. Then we'll see who's bitching about what.

 

Or you can stay away and watch the team move. Yeah, THAT won't cause any bitching.

[Gainzo]

I agree that it doesn't have to be a local owner.  As long as they are committed to the Bills I'm all for them.

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Be very wary of an out of town owner.

 

Have you seen what Buffalo resident Jeremy Jacobs has done to the Bruins?

[gallagher]

I've read that Ralph MADE (i.e. with the old CBA) about $10-15M in profit a year.  Now take the new CBA that jacked-up the salary cap about $10M overnight without Ralph seeing an extra dime, and his profits dwindle to 0-$5M.  And all the while, Bills fans pay the lowest gameday prices of ANY NFL fans.  And yet, the Bills have only sold-out the entire season 3 times in the 46 years of their existence, with last year being one of them (meaning that even during the SB years, at best 2 of the 4 years sold-out).

 

Basically the new CBA was an embarrassment for an NFL that prides itself on being the best business model.  They gave over 5% (5.3% to be exact) MORE money to the players than ever before and let the NFLPA tell them to figure out how the richer owners were going to pay the poorer ones.  Real great job there.

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Sadly, you're buying into Ralph's misgiuded complaints. Almost everything you said is wrong. TV money alone covers all player costs and then some. The cap goes up proportionally to revenue, so anytime it does go up Ralph sees his dimes.

 

Ralph makes over well over $50 million every year once appreciation is taken into account. He named the stadium after himself, deciding that his name up there is worth multi millions. To make roughly $65 million or so after taxes (per year) he has to watch football.

 

He's got it tough. The only sacrafice he's making is the fact that he could make $100 million or so in another city. Sure, he's potentially sacraficing a lot of money to keep the team here, but there are still risks involved with a new market and he's got a cash cow as is. Don't buy into the fact that this CBA is going to make it difficult for the Bills to field a competitive team in Buffalo.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

How do you get that he's making $50M a year? Those numbers I GOTTA see!

 

And okay, let's make believe that the Bills are a cash cow for Ralph. What difference does it make to YOU that he's trying to squeeze as much money out of the other owners? Aren't ticket, parking, and concessions prices the lowest in the NFL? Or do you take offense that he's calling YOU out personally to come and see a game, so that the stadium sells-out for every game? Again, three complete sell-out years in 46 is pretty sad.

 

And yes Ralph could have moved the team at any time, or could even sell. Instead he's keeping prices low, fighting with the other owners, and trying to keep the team because when he dies, it's NOT going to be easy to find an owner who'll pay $750+M for a franchise that makes maybe $20M a year.

[gallagher]

MadBuffaloDisease,Sep 6 2006, 09:00 PM]

Give me a link on that "$30-35M to each team this year more than last year."

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CBS is paying $622.5 million, Fox $712.5 million, ESPN $1.1 billion, NBC $650 million yearly for a total of $3.1 billion, up from the previous contracts $2.2 billion. That's a $900 million difference divided equally among the 32 team for a total of $28.1 million per team. Factor in the revenue from the NFL Network (which has exclusive games this year and will draw big advertising money) and you're looking at well over $30 million.

 

The links are readily available to anyone that can use google.

[Kelly the Dog]

CBS is paying $622.5 million, Fox $712.5 million, ESPN $1.1 billion, NBC $650 million yearly for a total of $3.1 billion, up from the previous contracts $2.2 billion. That's a $900 million difference divided equally among the 32 team for a total of $28.1 million per team. Factor in the revenue from the NFL Network (which has exclusive games this year and will draw big advertising money) and you're looking at well over $30 million.

 

The links are readily available to anyone that can use google.

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The NFL Network contract is 600-650 million I think for five years but I'm not positive. But it's at least 3-4 million per team per season. Here is an article from the USA Today that says the TV revenue jumped up 53%, which matches your figures with the addition of the NFL Network deal.

 

That jockeying inevitably pays off. In new contracts starting this season, the league will get a total annual average of $3.75 billion — a cumulative 53% jump in NFL TV revenue. And the jockeying usually leads to NFL action changing channels — and new faces.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nf...-tv-cover_x.htm

That's approximately 117 million per team, which is about 15 million MORE than the salary cap. And that doesn't count any of the other contracts the league has with companies that put millions and millions more into the owners pockets, before they make a dollar off tickets, parking, concessions, radio, luxury boxes and jerseys, etc.

[gallagher]

How do you get that he's making $50M a year?  Those numbers I GOTTA see!

 

And okay, let's make believe that the Bills are a cash cow for Ralph.  What difference does it make to YOU that he's trying to squeeze as much money out of the other owners?  Aren't ticket, parking, and concessions prices the lowest in the NFL?  Or do you take offense that he's calling YOU out personally to come and see a game, so that the stadium sells-out for every game?  Again, three complete sell-out years in 46 is pretty sad.

 

And yes Ralph could have moved the team at any time, or could even sell.  Instead he's keeping prices low, fighting with the other owners, and trying to keep the team because when he dies, it's NOT going to be easy to find an owner who'll pay $750+M for a franchise that makes maybe $20M a year.

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Why can't you see the numbers? It's not hard. He made $48 million in capital appreciation alone last season. $32 million in income. Let's say taxes take it down to $20, conservative estimate, that's $68 million.

 

It is a cash cow for Ralph. He's trying to take money away from markets that are maximizing their own revenue. If Ralph wants more money, sell stadium naming rights.

 

The owners that are producing more revenue deserve more profit. Ralph isn't getting $100 million a year from television contracts because of the Buffalo market. He's already squeezing money from the big owners. So long as the league keeps a competitive balance and every owner is in the situation where they can make a healthy profit (which is what we have now) then the big boys deserve a little more. They're sacraficing much more than Ralph as it is.

 

Stop playing the holier than though card. I have season tickets too. We get it, you spend money to see the team. Congrats, the medal is in the mail.

 

It may not be easy to find a local owner to spend $750 million for a team that makes $70 million annually, but an NFL team in a football rabid market is an extremely attractive investment.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

I ran the numbers. The NFL is making $1.785B more a year than before. That works out to ~$56M a team, of which the owners pocket $~22.6M (40.5%, assuming they spend to the cap limit of 59.5%). So Ralph's operating income is ~$53.8M ($31.2M+$22.6M), before interest, taxes, depreciation, and amortization (*). That's assuming the money is disbursed in equal amounts which I don't believe it is, with less money being paid up-front and more later, and that jibes with the salary cap increasing only about $10M despite non-shared revenues also being added-in.

 

As for "a football rabid market," are you kidding me?! That and a cup of coffee will get you a move from Cleveland to Baltimore for all that matters. Again do you really THINK that a prospective owner is going to plunk down $750+M and see an at-best return of $53.8M (currently, and it's not even close to that given * above) a year? Not without raising gameday prices considerably. Ah but then the fan base which only sells-out all the games in a season to the tune of once every 15 years on average will likely stop selling-out even most games of the season. See the problem there? Or do you think that the warm and fuzzies of "the rabid fan base" will prevent the owner from pulling up stakes for greener pastures?

 

Face facts bud, Ralph's still in it BECAUSE of his initial $25K investment, of which the capital appreciation means nothing until he sells, at which point you get the above problem with potential new ownership. When Ralph first set-up shop, Buffalo was a MUCH bigger and wealthier city. It's now a shell of its former self, due to NOTHING Ralph has done or not done. He's pretty much squeezed every dollar he can from the fans, county, and state, except for naming rights which would get him at best about $2M a year. And for a frame of reference, take a look at Robert Kraft. He was making gobs of money in New England once he took over and started jacking-up prices, and just FOUR years later he started courting Providence and then Hartford because it wasn't ENOUGH money. Yeah, he had a "football rabid market" as well.

 

And I never said that the bigger markets shouldn't make more profit, and neither has Ralph. Nice strawman. But frankly I could give a rat's ass about the bigger markets because without ALL the markets, the NFL wouldn't be what it is. MLB used to be the favorite pasttime, but it's been toppled thanks to "the top markets deserving more money" and making the game boring because only a handful of teams are in it annually. As the fan of a small market team, you should be more concerned with supporting your owner than dreaming up fanciful scenarios in which a knight in shining armor comes sweeping down to rescue the Bills from their doldrums, because the reality is that it's probably not going to happen now. I hope I'm dead wrong, but the new CBA was a major blow for the Bills long-term.

[gallagher]

What numbers are you running? The only two numbers that really matter are the operating income for the Bills and the capital appreciation of the franchise value. The former is $31.2 (before taxes) million, the latter $48 million.

 

Clearly, the issue over selling the team becomes whether or not any local business person(s) can come up with enough money. It remains to be seen. There will be plenty of interest from out of towners.

 

If you think his capital appreciation means nothing, well it's telling. It means a lot, even if the money isn't liquid. Stocks aren't gained until their sold, yet it's a large part of Bill Gates net worth. The same can be said about Donald Trump's real estate investments. It might not be cash, but Ralph is getting plenty of that anyway. Think of it as a billion dollar retirement plan.

 

I agree, as does everyone, that the NFL is reliant on all markets. As I said, as long as every team has the ability to spend to the cap and still make money (which they can barring a natural disaster) then the league is in good shape. TV money alone pays for all player costs and then some. Corporate sponsorship and other shared revenues make up most of the non-player expenses. Just about eveything else is profit.

 

The new CBA isn't a blow for the Bills. The owner, whoever it is, is still able to make probably $50 million profit cash in Buffalo while chargning low prices for tickets, parking, and not naming the stadium. How is that a problem? Throw in the fact that the franchise value will skyrocket no matter what kind of market you're in and it's pretty clear that a team can thrive in Buffalo.

 

The problem is finding an owner who is willing to sacrafice extra profit to keep the team in Buffalo. If whoever buys the team has no roots in the city, what does he care? The franchise value has skyrocketed so much that Golisano likely can not afford it by himself even though he's fully aware it's a cash cow. I know you recognize this problem, but it has nothing to with the CBA. The old CBA would have created the exact same issue.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

The number I got was by using the 2005 net operating income plus the Bills' net cut of the additional money brought in by the new TV contracts (i.e. after the salary cap portion). Again it doesn't take into account interest, taxes, depreciation, and amortization, which will significantly lower that amount. And as I said, naming rights would at best give Ralph another $2M a year, currently (if the Bills become really good, that number could jump to maybe about $5M).

 

I appreciate what team value appreciation does for Ralph AFTER he sells, but it does nothing for him WHILE he still owns the team. Actually the more it increases, the harder it will be to find an owner who will be willing to spend what should be $800M by the time Ralph kicks, while figuring he'll make at best $50M a year (without raising gameday prices, which will alienate fans). And even a group of potential owners with strong local ties would find it hard to justify that kind of a business deal. I hope I'm dead wrong, but I wouldn't begrudge someone like Golisano for not being willing to do it.

 

And Golisano could get a group together, like most owners do. However I've heard no recent talk about Golisano buying the team, whereas I heard a LOT of it prior to the new CBA. The best I've heard from him is a non-committal "I'll do what I can to help keep them in Buffalo." And Ralph didn't start complaining until the new CBA was passed. So something's obviously up.

[Kelly the Dog]

The number I got was by using the 2005 net operating income plus the Bills' net cut of the additional money brought in by the new TV contracts (i.e. after the salary cap portion).  Again it doesn't take into account interest, taxes, depreciation, and amortization, which will significantly lower that amount.  And as I said, naming rights would at best give Ralph another $2M a year, currently (if the Bills become really good, that number could jump to maybe about $5M).

 

I appreciate what team value appreciation does for Ralph AFTER he sells, but it does nothing for him WHILE he still owns the team.  Actually the more it increases, the harder it will be to find an owner who will be willing to spend what should be $800M by the time Ralph kicks, while figuring he'll make at best $50M a year (without raising gameday prices, which will alienate fans).  And even a group of potential owners with strong local ties would find it hard to justify that kind of a business deal.  I hope I'm dead wrong, but I wouldn't begrudge someone like Golisano for not being willing to do it.

 

And Golisano could get a group together, like most owners do.  However I've heard no recent talk about Golisano buying the team, whereas I heard a LOT of it prior to the new CBA.  The best I've heard from him is a non-committal "I'll do what I can to help keep them in Buffalo."  And Ralph didn't start complaining until the new CBA was passed.  So something's obviously up.

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Well the Bills are several million (6-7) under the cap so add that. The WGR guys said that Ralph pays himself 5$ mil a year as part of the company. Most do I believe so I would imagine that's true. The NFL recently made some outrageous deals with corporate sponsors and digital stuff that is going to make each team tens of millions more so add that.

[gallagher]

And even a group of potential owners with strong local ties would find it hard to justify that kind of a business deal.

 

It's most certainly a justifable investment. Would you buy a stock for $75 dollars knowing that it pays a dividend $5 a year and is risk free from an appreciation standpoint, with a likely apprecation of 7% annually? If you wouldn't, please make sure you're not in charge of your retirement fund.

 

The problem isn't that it's not an attractive investment, the problem is not a lot of people with Buffalo ties have $800 million to spend. That problem is completely independent of any CBA ties.

 

If you think you heard Golisano say anything about his role in ownership of the Bills before the CBA, you're mistaken. It was speculation from uninformed people with no ties to Golisano (mostly fans). His comment that you referenced was his first. The new CBA isn't going to deter a local owner from buying the Bills in any way whatsoever. The gigantic price tag will.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

It's most certainly a justifable investment. Would you buy a stock for $75 dollars knowing that it pays a dividend $5 a year and is risk free from an appreciation standpoint, with a likely apprecation of 7% annually? If you wouldn't, please make sure you're not in charge of your retirement fund.

Multiply that $75 by a factor of 10-11 million and things change drastically. And possibly a group could look to buy the team and sell it to someone after a few years, but AGAIN the likely scenario is the Bills would leave town.