Pyrite Gal Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 In another thread someone proposes a fantasy trade of WM for a 1st from Houston. While the general reaction to this trade seems to be that folks would not do it because either: 1. They think it would amount to flushing this season down the toilet with a variety of negative effects siince it leaves a team already weaker than we want with having to use Gates or Thomas as our #1 RB or pick up somebody a team has given up on,or 2. They want more value than a 1st round rookie with no pro credentials (even a first in the draft pick) in exchange for an NFL vet starter at RB. Yet, one poster at least seems so devoted to the crapshoot called the NFL draft that he calls such an offer a no-brainer to take for WM. I think this move amounts to near business insanity as the lame season we would be volunteering for would cause a devastating hit on this business looking to put butts in the seat right now and build a positive feeling about this team for the immediate and forseeable future. It also amounts to substantial risk that the Bills will suck for what is a limited amount of time that the Golden Boys will be on this planet. However, if one chooses to simply ignore the likely realities of business and the unfortunate reality that we are only on the planet for a short time, I think this question even raises an odd view of football. Basically in a little under two seasons of play WM has easily led the Bills in rushing and in fact amassed over 2000 yards rushing quicker than any Bill. He certainly had a real production downturn in the 2nd part of last season though he still put up substantial rushing yards for the season. He also has not demonstrated the pass catching ability that would make him a full RB yet that the great ones like Thurman showed. My question is what specific level of production should WM have produced to make him a good RB in their minds? And whatever level of production they demand is it realistic to expect that from an RB after two years of play or who came with a #23 pick. The statement has been offered also that WM is merely bidding his time here so he can go elsewhere. Are there any quotes from him that support this? I would suspect that if he signed for the only 5 years many first rounders sign for AND the contract allows his first injured year to be one of the 5 we still have him for 2 seasons and if he turns out to be that good, we even have the franchose tag which could force him to stay for two additional yeaes or at least apply leverage on him to resign. The thought that his is likely to be gone seems to assume that he is gonna mount some Terrell Owensesque fit that will force the Bills to get rid of him. Is there any objective reason why anyone draws this conclusion. What is the thought here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 Why didn't you post this in the thread you're referencing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrite Gal Posted August 31, 2006 Author Share Posted August 31, 2006 Why didn't you post this in the thread you're referencing? 756958[/snapback] I thought this was a separate question than the main point of the thread itself which I was curious to receive feedback on this specific point that those who already had responded to the original question in the thread might not see amidst the back and forth. Therefore I posted a new thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 Hey PG, you might want to edit your post & bold your actual question in it so people can find it quicker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrite Gal Posted August 31, 2006 Author Share Posted August 31, 2006 Hey PG, you might want to edit your post & bold your actual question in it so people can find it quicker. 756963[/snapback] Sorry, and I will try to be more conscientious about doin THIS when I post a question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albany,n.y. Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 The people who are afraid of problems with Willis (and I'm definitely NOT one of them) are afraid of his agent pulling some stunt once Willis has a big year. Obviously, trading him for a pick before the event that causes their fear is very self-defeating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 In another thread someone proposes a fantasy trade of WM for a 1st from Houston. While the general reaction to this trade seems to be that folks would not do it because either: 1. They think it would amount to flushing this season down the toilet with a variety of negative effects siince it leaves a team already weaker than we want with having to use Gates or Thomas as our #1 RB or pick up somebody a team has given up on,or 2. They want more value than a 1st round rookie with no pro credentials (even a first in the draft pick) in exchange for an NFL vet starter at RB. Yet, one poster at least seems so devoted to the crapshoot called the NFL draft that he calls such an offer a no-brainer to take for WM. I think this move amounts to near business insanity as the lame season we would be volunteering for would cause a devastating hit on this business looking to put butts in the seat right now and build a positive feeling about this team for the immediate and forseeable future. It also amounts to substantial risk that the Bills will suck for what is a limited amount of time that the Golden Boys will be on this planet. However, if one chooses to simply ignore the likely realities of business and the unfortunate reality that we are only on the planet for a short time, I think this question even raises an odd view of football. Basically in a little under two seasons of play WM has easily led the Bills in rushing and in fact amassed over 2000 yards rushing quicker than any Bill. He certainly had a real production downturn in the 2nd part of last season though he still put up substantial rushing yards for the season. He also has not demonstrated the pass catching ability that would make him a full RB yet that the great ones like Thurman showed. My question is what specific level of production should WM have produced to make him a good RB in their minds? And whatever level of production they demand is it realistic to expect that from an RB after two years of play or who came with a #23 pick. The statement has been offered also that WM is merely bidding his time here so he can go elsewhere. Are there any quotes from him that support this? I would suspect that if he signed for the only 5 years many first rounders sign for AND the contract allows his first injured year to be one of the 5 we still have him for 2 seasons and if he turns out to be that good, we even have the franchose tag which could force him to stay for two additional yeaes or at least apply leverage on him to resign. The thought that his is likely to be gone seems to assume that he is gonna mount some Terrell Owensesque fit that will force the Bills to get rid of him. Is there any objective reason why anyone draws this conclusion. What is the thought here? 756956[/snapback] PG, you are making WAY too much of a hypothetical proposal imo. I think that like you, I will number my points in this response: 1) Why do you make the assumption that anybody who spoke for the trade is automatically against Willis? I think that I am one of his biggest fans on this board. The question didn't revolve upon how much people like him as a player. The 1st round pick from Houston is likely to be a top 10, perhaps even the 1st pick of a draft. I would rather have the 1st pick of a draft than Willis MaGahee. Any top 10 would be pretty nice too (under normal circumstances). 2) I have been enjoying your posts for many years. You were against drafting 1st round quarterbacks before anybody that I have ever read or spoke to, your use of flawed and misleading statistics notwithstanding. Today, many national sportswriters have taken your cause. The thing is, you value the draft less than me. This of course doesn't mean one of us is right/wrong, just 2 different opinions. 3) For every Bryce Paup, Tom Brady, Larry Little, etc. (2 6ths and a UDFA), there are lots and lots of players such as Lawrence Taylor, John Elway, and Earl Campbell who go early. As football fans go, many posters here (not me) are semi-experts imo, and only a handful of THEM have any kind of thoughts on how the late rounds will shape up. It is unrealistic to count on much help there. As much as I do like Willis, I don't think that he is an all time great, and I think that having 2 top 10 picks increases the chances of a team landing an all time great player, or so it would clearly seem. Where I DO agree with you is wrt the business end. I would continue to watch the Bills. I already have a ticket to watch them this year in October, along with the NFL Ticket. At the same time, it is reasonable to suspect that a trade like this might serve to turn away the more marginal fans, who are much needed to fill the stadium. In any event, the question was hypothetical. We will never get an offer of this magnitude, because Willis MaGahee, as much as I like to see him play, is simply not worth a top 10 draft selection in terms of trade value, let alone a possible 1st. I did however allow for some good dialogue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamsBuffetTable Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 trade value of a RB != value of a RB to the team losing the RB In the trade that these people are talking about the Bills would be trading reletively sure production now for reletively unsure production in the future. Sure production today > unsure production later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills_fan_in_raleigh Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 In another thread someone proposes a fantasy trade of WM for a 1st from Houston. While the general reaction to this trade seems to be that folks would not do it because either: 1. They think it would amount to flushing this season down the toilet with a variety of negative effects siince it leaves a team already weaker than we want with having to use Gates or Thomas as our #1 RB or pick up somebody a team has given up on,or 2. They want more value than a 1st round rookie with no pro credentials (even a first in the draft pick) in exchange for an NFL vet starter at RB. Yet, one poster at least seems so devoted to the crapshoot called the NFL draft that he calls such an offer a no-brainer to take for WM. I think this move amounts to near business insanity as the lame season we would be volunteering for would cause a devastating hit on this business looking to put butts in the seat right now and build a positive feeling about this team for the immediate and forseeable future. It also amounts to substantial risk that the Bills will suck for what is a limited amount of time that the Golden Boys will be on this planet. However, if one chooses to simply ignore the likely realities of business and the unfortunate reality that we are only on the planet for a short time, I think this question even raises an odd view of football. Basically in a little under two seasons of play WM has easily led the Bills in rushing and in fact amassed over 2000 yards rushing quicker than any Bill. He certainly had a real production downturn in the 2nd part of last season though he still put up substantial rushing yards for the season. He also has not demonstrated the pass catching ability that would make him a full RB yet that the great ones like Thurman showed. My question is what specific level of production should WM have produced to make him a good RB in their minds? And whatever level of production they demand is it realistic to expect that from an RB after two years of play or who came with a #23 pick. The statement has been offered also that WM is merely bidding his time here so he can go elsewhere. Are there any quotes from him that support this? I would suspect that if he signed for the only 5 years many first rounders sign for AND the contract allows his first injured year to be one of the 5 we still have him for 2 seasons and if he turns out to be that good, we even have the franchose tag which could force him to stay for two additional yeaes or at least apply leverage on him to resign. The thought that his is likely to be gone seems to assume that he is gonna mount some Terrell Owensesque fit that will force the Bills to get rid of him. Is there any objective reason why anyone draws this conclusion. What is the thought here? 756956[/snapback] way to logical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tortured Soul Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 Here is the argument against Willis to date: YPC. It sure doesn't look very impressive. Last year, he was 30th at 3.8 YPC. Ah, but he did it behind a piss-poor line, you'd say. Well, Henry ran behind a similarly piss-poor line and did considerably better. And, if you buy this KC Joyner stuff, the line wasn't actually that bad. That's the argument, take it or leave it. If you want a specific level of production, 4.0 YPC (26 RBs reached this level last year) should keep you in the NFL, 4.3 (15 RBs) would be considered good. 4.5 (7 RBs) makes you a star. As for Willis coming out and saying he wants to leave Buffalo, of course he didn't do that. Players rarely do. But he has Drew Rosenhaus as an agent, who likes the kind of big bonuses the Bills don't normally hand out, and Willis is a warm-weather player from a warm-weather school. I do think the best point you make is that the Bills need a successful season this year. Not to say we're all DOOMED, but ticket sales remained pretty strong this year, but another 5-win season coupled with the potential need for a new QB and the total inability to attract marquee free agents could send the team into a tailspin that won't end until they land in Los Angeles. So lets all pull for JP, Willis, and the rest. My question is what specific level of production should WM have produced to make him a good RB in their minds? And whatever level of production they demand is it realistic to expect that from an RB after two years of play or who came with a #23 pick. The statement has been offered also that WM is merely bidding his time here so he can go elsewhere. Are there any quotes from him that support this? 756956[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 But he just bought a house here in WNY. That must count for something! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDG Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 My question is what specific level of production should WM have produced to make him a good RB in their minds? And whatever level of production they demand is it realistic to expect that from an RB after two years of play or who came with a #23 pick. How about the production level of the 27th pick in the same draft? Oh wait, that was Larry Johnson..... JDG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 How about the production level of the 27th pick in the same draft?Oh wait, that was Larry Johnson..... JDG 757045[/snapback] Well that certainly added to the discussion. Since we're talking about something different to what PG was.... How about the production level of the 16th & 18th picks in the previous draft? Oh wait, that was William Green & T.J. Duckett. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 But he just bought a house here in WNY. That must count for something! 757041[/snapback] I really thought that you were smarter than that. I guess I was mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 I really thought that you were smarter than that. I guess I was mistaken. 757078[/snapback] You weren't mistaken. When a player buys a house in WNY they are truly committed to staying here and are not counting the days until they can play for their team of choice. Get with the program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 You weren't mistaken. When a player buys a house in WNY they are truly committed to staying here and are not counting the days until they can play for their team of choice. Get with the program. 757098[/snapback] It is nice to see that you finally have come around on this. I was beginning to think that you thought that Willis bought a house in Buffalo because of the booming real estate market in WNY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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