The chicken or the egg?

[Trip]

We've heard for years now the Bills offense stinks because of poor offensive line play.

 

"You win in the trenches" and all that happy horse crap.

 

Yet other teams build offensive lines through free agency, 4th round draft picks and lower, and even undrafted free agents and go deep in the playoffs.

 

The reality is, at least in my view, that a quick triggered QB and the threat of a passing game can open up the whole offense much more effectively than a good offensive line.

 

Put Peyton Manning behind the Bills offensive line of last year and he's still an MVP candidate and Edgerin James is still a top RB and Manning's offensive is still near the top of the league.

 

Is it a coincidence that since Drew Bledsoe has moved on to Dallas, the Cowboys now have offensive line problems? The experts say the offensive line will be the key to Dallas' success and must play better than they did last year. Gee, figure that one out.

 

On Losman's TD pass to Price, he avoided a free blitzing Willie McGinest, not exactly a fringe pass rusher and delivered a strike. McGinest wasn't even touched by a Bills offensive lineman, yet articles are now being written (Rochester D and C today) about the improved line play of the Bills, the best line in Buffalo since Y2K. Bledsoe would have assumed the fetal position on that play and probably fumbled.

 

If Losman keeps playing like he is now, the offensive line and Jim McNally will get a whole heap of credit for giving the QB time to throw and turning the offense around, but what the team has needed all along in my opinion is a QB that can make quick decisions and strong, accurate throws.

[Bill from NYC]

We've heard for years now the Bills offense stinks because of poor offensive line play.

 

"You win in the trenches" and all that happy horse crap.

 

Yet other teams build offensive lines through free agency, 4th round draft picks and lower, and even undrafted free agents and go deep in the playoffs.

 

The reality is, at least in my view, that a quick triggered QB and the threat of a passing game can open up the whole offense much more effectively than a good offensive line.

 

Put Peyton Manning behind the Bills offensive line of last year and he's still an MVP candidate and Edgerin James is still a top RB and Manning's offensive is still near the top of the league.

 

Is it a coincidence that since Drew Bledsoe has moved on to Dallas, the Cowboys now have offensive line problems? The experts say the offensive line will be the key to Dallas' success and must play better than they did last year. Gee, figure that one out. 

 

On Losman's TD pass to Price, he avoided a free blitzing Willie McGinest, not exactly a fringe pass rusher and delivered a strike. McGinest wasn't even touched by a Bills offensive lineman, yet articles are now being written (Rochester D and C today) about the improved line play of the Bills, the best line in Buffalo since Y2K. Bledsoe would have assumed the fetal position on that play and probably fumbled.       

 

If Losman keeps playing like he is now, the offensive line and Jim McNally will get a whole heap of credit for giving the QB time to throw and turning the offense around, but what the team has needed all along in my opinion is a QB that can make quick decisions and strong, accurate throws.

754587[/snapback]

 

Good post. NFL football teams should stop wasting their time going after people who can block. What possible difference could blocking make?

In order to win, teams need small, injury prone, or in fact injured "skill" players. This is a clear path to victory in this league. History has proven this time and again. As long as a team is loaded with small people, the sky is the limit!

 

Good quarterbacks don't need pass protection, good runners open their own holes, and small, injured wideouts will put up the big numbers even if their qb has zero time to throw.

This is my football motto.

[Trip]

Good post. NFL football teams should stop wasting their time going after people who can block. What possible difference could blocking make?

In order to win, teams need small, injury prone, or in fact injured "skill" players. This is a clear path to victory in this league. History has proven this time and again. As long as a team is loaded with small people, the sky is the limit!

 

Good quarterbacks don't need pass protection, good runners open their own holes, and small, injured wideouts will put up the big numbers even if their qb has zero time to throw.

This is my football motto.

754611[/snapback]

 

Not what I said.

 

But an NFL team also doesn't need an all pro offensive line to win 10 games.

[Swift Sylvan]

http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showtopic=50324&st=0

Ctrl f Hellen Keller, I said something somewhat similar

 

I think a good offensive line is better at making QB's look good than a good QB making an offensive line look good. I.E. Jake Plummer. However, I don't think any of us consider Plummer an elite player despite his team advancing beyond that of Peyton, Brady, Palmer, Brees, Eli, etc....

 

Imagine Drew Bledsoe behind the Texan line, how long do you think it'd take him to get killed?

[The Jokeman]

Put Peyton Manning behind the Bills offensive line of last year and he's still an MVP candidate and Edgerin James is still a top RB and Manning's offensive is still near the top of the league.

 

754587[/snapback]

Do you know who's playing Left OT in Indy? It's a guy named Tarik Glenn, who was a 1st Round pick the year prior to Peyton's arrival.

[Trip]

Bennie Anderson and LJ Shelton are starting on the OL in Miami.

 

They could be our case study.

 

I say their offense is pretty good this year with Culpepper at QB.

[Bill from NYC]

Bennie Anderson and LJ Shelton are starting on the OL in Miami.

 

They could be our case study.

 

I say their offense is pretty good this year with Culpepper at QB.

754674[/snapback]

 

Although he has been nothing special, Shelton was a 1st round pick. So was he.

 

Your point is?

[Trip]

So was Mike Williams. How'd that work out?

 

The Bills didn't think highly enough of Shelton to give a mid round draft choice for him, and the OL was the root of all problems according to some.

 

Bennie Anderson was horrible here.

 

Sure I'd prefer 1st round draft choices at all positions.

 

I'll take the QB. He can comepensate for a lot of shortcomings on the OL.

 

Is that what it takes to make a solid offensive line? One first round draft choice and a lot of scrubs?

[Bill from NYC]

So was Mike Williams. How'd that work out? 

 

The Bills didn't think highly enough of Shelton to give a mid round draft choice for him, and the OL was the root of all problems according to some.

 

Bennie Anderson was horrible here.

 

Sure I'd prefer 1st round draft choices at all positions.

 

I'll take the QB. He can comepensate for a lot of shortcomings on the OL.

 

Is that what it takes to make a solid offensive line? One first round draft choice and a lot of scrubs?

754703[/snapback]

 

While I appreciate the dialogue, you are making little sense imo.

 

I make the case that a winning team needs a solid OL. I sense that you probably agree. What might be more appropriate to discuss is how to get one, dontcha think?

[Trip]

I've already told you how we get one.

 

We develop a QB, and take pressure off the scrubs playing there.

 

And we're on our way.

[Bill from NYC]

I've already told you how we get one.

 

We develop a QB, and take pressure off the scrubs playing there.

 

And we're on our way.

754718[/snapback]

 

Way too simplistic for my tastes, but again, thanks for the dialogue.

[Trip]

Anytime.

[Ray]

Isn't it amazing how the same OL goes from being awful allowing too many sacks with Bledsoe to being SB champs with Brady. And the same OL that was awful for RJ was the same OL that went to the playoffs with Flutie at QB.

I think too many people have blamed the OL for being awful when we haven't had a decent QB in 5 years. Hopefully JP will be the one who finally leads us to the playoffs again. It takes both a good OL and good QB but I'd much rather have a great QB like Brady. He would still be an All Pro with our OL.

[Trip]

Be careful.

 

That's pretty simplistic thinking.

[Ray]

The easiest way to test your theory is change one guy--the QB, and keep every other player the same. That was done with Bledsoe/Brady in NE and we see how 3 SBs later that worked out. It was also done with RJ/Flutie. It must not have been an awful OL that kept Bledsoe from meeting his potential, maybe it was him. Maybe when 5 people have to block six and the QB has to make a quick decision and pass accurately you want a smart QB.

We'd all want an AllPro line but it ain't gonna happen. Like most OL's in the NFL you will be lucky with one and the rest are decent. Let's hope our guys are decent this year and we finally get very good play out of the QB.

[Pirate Angel]

Tom Brady Seemed to do pretty well behind the line that Bledsoe Left behind

[Trip]

The easiest way to test your theory is change one guy--the QB, and keep every other player the same.  That was done with Bledsoe/Brady in NE and we see how 3 SBs later that worked out.  It was also done with RJ/Flutie.  It must not have been an awful OL that kept Bledsoe from meeting his potential, maybe it was him.  Maybe when 5 people have to block six and the QB has to make a quick decision and pass accurately you want a smart QB. 

We'd all want an AllPro line but it ain't gonna happen.  Like most OL's in the NFL you will be lucky with one and the rest are decent.  Let's hope our guys are decent this year and we finally get very good play out of the QB.

754772[/snapback]

 

Yeah, not sure how you could definitively prove it one way or the other. Just what you believe.

 

And I know it's only one play, but we all saw JP avoid a free blitzer and not only get rid of the ball for a gain, but step up and throw a 54 yard TD.

 

I don't remember Bledsoe doing that in 3 years.

 

So it stands to reason that all QB's do not require the same amount of protection.

 

And obviously the passing game can open up the running game.

 

So a sound QB can make an entire offense better.

 

It's what I believe and any hopes of a really good season hinge on JP IMO.

[keepthefaith]

Yeah, not sure how you could definitively prove it one way or the other. Just what you believe.

 

And I know it's only one play, but we all saw JP avoid a free blitzer and not only get rid of the ball for a gain, but step up and throw a 54 yard TD.

 

I don't remember Bledsoe doing that in 3 years.

 

So it stands to reason that all QB's do not require the same amount of protection.

 

And obviously the passing game can open up the running game.

 

So a sound QB can make an entire offense better.

 

It's what I believe and any hopes of a really good season hinge on JP IMO.

754796[/snapback]

 

So many variables....

 

Last year after watching a Bills game in which Kelly Holcomb was the QB, I turned to a Colts game. Immediately I noticed how few defensive players were playing "in the box" against the Colt's offense. There stood Manning in the shotgun with 4 defensive lineman in rush mode and the balance of the defense back pedaling to cover Harrison and the rest of the receivers in the pattern. This didn't go on for 1 play, but for he game overall. In contrast, the Bill's offense appeared to be blocking the entire defense on many plays last year. They could not run or pass. The Bill's opponents simply showed no respect for the Bill's offense. On the other page was Manning standing in the pocket looking downfield without a strong pass rush or handing the ball off to the RB who found some daylight often.

 

I'd say you need a good line and good potential passing and running game. No chicken or egg, but decent capability in all 3 areas.

 

The Bills won't score big until Losman proves he can throw deep. Teams early in the season will likely plan to defend run first and dare the kid to beat them. If he can do that, Willis can get some open space which he needs to get yards. He has not shown that he is a good between the tackles runner yet. Then the Bills can win some games.

[Dibs]

I don't see why this sort of thing has to be an either/or option.

IMO a great QB can 'improve' the OL & a top OL can make the QB look better.

 

A point I think is often overlooked is the 'chemistry' on the OL. A group of hard workers who play well as a unit don't have to be individual 'stars'.

 

Arizona this year will (sort of) be a test on the OL theory here. With Edge James now...along with Bolden, Fitzgerald & Warner....& no OL to speak of, if they produce very well offensively it will have to dint the 'OL is the only way to go' view.

 

Surely the thing to strive for is a top OL with top skills players.

[Fla Bills Fan]

Bennie Anderson and LJ Shelton are starting on the OL in Miami.

 

They could be our case study.

 

I say their offense is pretty good this year with Culpepper at QB.

754674[/snapback]

There are two other factors to consider. The first is coaching, Houck the Fins line coach is supposed to be Very good. The second is blocking scheams ( the reason Denver always rushes so well). We shall soon see if Bennie is the worthless piece of crap we all think he is or not.