Lenny P

[dave mcbride]

His predecessor couldn't and didn't the last few years he was here either. He had terrible drafts, mishandled the salary cap in historic proportions, had the team in danger of moving, never realized the potential of regionalization, and left the team in worse shambles than even the Great Satan.

752303[/snapback]

i've been following you up to this point. but this is ridiculous!!! what "terrible draft" did butler have besides the one in 2000??? 1999? 1998? 1997? 1996? 1995? 1994? 1993? didn't think so. the salary cap problems weren't nearly as bad as they've been made out to be either.

 

as for what he did after he left buffalo, he went to a worse team and with a.j. smith, built a team that has been significantly better than buffalo the last couple of years.

[Kelly the Dog]

i've been following you up to this point. but this is ridiculous!!! what "terrible draft" did butler have besides the one in 2000??? 1999? 1998? 1997? 1996? 1995? 1994? 1993? didn't think so. the salary cap problems weren't nearly as bad as they've been made out to be either.

 

as for what he did after he left buffalo, he went to a worse team and with a.j. smith, built a team that has been significantly better than buffalo the last couple of years.

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The situation that Butler left the Bills in was a complete and utter shambles and far, far worse than TD left the team in last year. They had a lack of talent, numerous grossly overpaid contracts, and few star players. You cannot sugarcoat that salary cap problem because it was absolutely horrible. There weren't more than a couple players that were worth that money at that stage of their career and it's the reason Butler ran for the hills. They couldnt sign the one player they needed to in Ted Washington (until it was too late and bridges had been burned).

 

The 2000 draft was atrocious. The 1999 draft was pretty good with one star player IMO in Antoine (although a lot of people thought he was overrated), one good to very good player in Peerless (who a lot or people thought sucked and completely overrated) and two decent players in Foreman and Newman that were excellent at dragging down ballcarriers from behind seven yards into the defensive backfield. Bryce Fisher did nothing for the Bills. The year previous produced one excellent player in Sam Cowart and 6 duds, excluding about three good games out of Robert Hicks.

[dave mcbride]

The situation that Butler left the Bills in was a complete and utter shambles and far, far worse than TD left the team in last year. They had a lack of talent, numerous grossly overpaid contracts, and few star players. You cannot sugarcoat that salary cap problem because it was absolutely horrible. There weren't more than a couple players that were worth that money at that stage of their career and it's the reason Butler ran for the hills. They couldnt sign the one player they needed to in Ted Washington (until it was too late and bridges had been burned). 

 

The 2000 draft was atrocious. The 1999 draft was pretty good with one star player IMO in Antoine (although a lot of people thought he was overrated), one good to very good player in Peerless (who a lot or people thought sucked and completely overrated) and two decent players in Foreman and Newman that were excellent at dragging down ballcarriers from behind seven yards into the defensive backfield. Bryce Fisher did nothing for the Bills. The year previous produced one excellent player in Sam Cowart and 6 duds, excluding about three good games out of Robert Hicks.

752366[/snapback]

 

well, we'll have to agree to disagree. the bills were 7-4 at one point in 2000, and would have won done better than 8-8 if 1/3 of the defense didn't get hurt against tampa. in any event, the bills were under no financial pressure to get rid of many players who filled solid roles in 2000 -- holocek, jones, ted washington (who they didn't cut but wanted to come back at a reasonable rate), and flutie. in fact, getting rid of many of those players made the cap situation look worse than it actually was. they chose to go in a different direction, and it didn't work out.

 

as for your draft analysis, i see you haven't gone back and looked at the drafts from 1993-1997. as for declaring a draft a dud, i also suggest you look at the drafts of teams deemed good drafters in the 1980s and 1990s (cowboys, steelers, niners). in most seasons, they drafted one or two solid players plus 10 guys you've never heard of.

 

 

as for 1999, talk about mud-covered glasses!! that's one of the best drafts in bills history, pound for pound. as for fisher, it's not his fault that gregg williams let him go. he has since proven that he can play, which suggests that williams was, you know, wrong.

 

as for 1998, you're forgetting rob johnson (a player and a trade i'd never defend, by the way), and the fact that jonathan linton was a more productive player than the vast majority of fifth rounders drafted that year. cowart was a great pick, and would have been a superstar if not for the injury.

[Kelly the Dog]

Butler built a team in which the defense was absolutely dominant but special teams was always a concern.  Nevertheless, his teams were playoff-caliber and were it not for the Homerun Throwback, might have gone to the Super Bowl.  Did he have some poor drafts?  Yes.  Did he leave the team in a bad salary cap situation?  Yes.  But that happens to many teams who were trying to win in the short-term.  San Francisco, Jacksonville, Tennessee all went through that.

752330[/snapback]

Butler was a pretty good GM overall. But ultimately he failed. To this day, even in retrospect, I support his theory of "going for it" in 1998 and 1999 by grossly over-paying numerous players including Holecek, Ostroski, Henry Jones, Keith Newman, Flutie, etc. in order to make one last push to win the Super Bowl. If he didn't we would have lost them and we wouldn't have had the talent to win it.

 

It failed and it left the team a mess and yet I still support the idea behind it knowing that it failed.

 

But ultimately, it ruined the team for three years. And the most amazing thing about the Great Satan experiment and its utter failure was that Tom Donohoe left the team in a lot better shape than he found it all around, both in personell and monetarily, and John Butler left the team in far worse shape than he found it, in both personell and monetarily.

[ROSCOE P. COE TRAIN]

Actually,  Holcomb has the 9th highest base salary on the team for 2006.  Granted,  that's not the Bills' cap hit for keeping him around,  but it does represent the actual money Ralph Wilson will be paying him.  It would seem to me to be difficult to justify writing the 9th biggest check on the team to a #3 QB.

752305[/snapback]

 

 

 

You are assuming Nall is #2. 9th best salary for a #2 is justified. All the scoring starts under center...unless D or special teams are incredible. I have no beef with paying my QB, 1 & 2 -- top money. Like the NHL, you have to have a solid backup.

[dave mcbride]

And the most amazing thing about the Great Satan experiment and its utter failure was that Tom Donohoe left the team in a lot better shape than he found it all around, both in personell and monetarily, and John Butler left the team in far worse shape than he found it, in both personell and monetarily.

752370[/snapback]

this is, shall we say, a very creative interpretation. the bills were quite possibly the worst team in the league last year by the end of the season.

[Kelly the Dog]

well, we'll have to agree to disagree. the bills were 7-4 at one point in 2000, and would have won done better than 8-8 if 1/3 of the defense didn't get hurt against tampa.  in any event, the bills were under no financial pressure to get rid of many players who filled solid roles in 2000 -- holocek, jones, ted washington (who they didn't cut but wanted to come back at a reasonable rate), and flutie.  in fact, getting rid of many of those players made the cap situation look worse than it actually was. they chose to go in a different direction, and it didn't work out.

 

as for your draft analysis, i see you haven't gone back and looked at the drafts from 1993-1997. as for declaring a draft a dud, i also suggest you look at the drafts of teams deemed good drafters in the 1980s and 1990s (cowboys, steelers, niners). in most seasons, they drafted one or two solid players plus 10 guys you've never heard of.

as for 1999, talk about mud-covered glasses!! that's one of the best drafts in bills history, pound for pound. as for fisher, it's not his fault that gregg williams let him go. he has since proven that he can play, which suggests that williams was, you know, wrong.

 

as for 1998, you're forgetting rob johnson (a player and a trade i'd never defend, by the way), and the fact that jonathan linton was a more productive player than the vast majority of fifth rounders drafted that year. cowart was a great pick, and would have been a superstar if not for the injury.

752369[/snapback]

I didnt go back earlier because my statement you refuted was "Butler's last few years". So I went back and looked at the last few years. I guess my bad.

 

You're really not going to defend one of the worst #1 picks in Bills history Rob Johnson are you? That was his draft pick that year. That alone set the team back two years.

 

As for Bryce Fisher, it was a crappy pick. We had to wait two years for him and then we had him for two more years and he did squat. It was not until his fifth year in the league that he started to play well and that is not a draft pick well spent because no team and no GM anywhere would or should or could or has waited five years for the light to come on for a seventh round pick. And it wasn't because GW didnt see his brilliance.

 

I am stopping before I go out and kick a cat after reading about Jonathan Linton. Holy Christ.

[Kelly the Dog]

this is, shall we say, a very creative interpretation. the bills were quite possibly the worst team in the league last year by the end of the season.

752373[/snapback]

They packed the stadium, they are in great cap shape, they have a few young stars locked up for several years, they have 3-5 star players, and the best special teams in the league. This team is in far, far, far better shape than the mess that Butler left.

 

If you want to go on public record and say if you were GM you would much prefer to inherit the 2000 Bills and all its issues versus the 2006 Bills and all its issues please do.

[dave mcbride]

I didnt go back earlier because my statement you refuted was "Butler's last few years". So I went back and looked at the last few years. I guess my bad. 

 

You're really not going to defend one of the worst #1 picks in Bills history Rob Johnson are you? That was his draft pick that year. That alone set the team back two years.

 

As for Bryce Fisher, it was a crappy pick. We had to wait two years for him and then we had him for two more years and he did squat. It was not until his fifth year in the league that he started to play well and that is not a draft pick well spent because no team and no GM anywhere would or should or could or has waited five years for the light to come on for a seventh round pick. And it wasn't because GW didnt see his brilliance.

 

I am stopping before I go out and kick a cat after reading about Jonathan Linton. Holy Christ.

752375[/snapback]

 

i'm serious about linton. most fifth rounders don't last more than 2 years. he at least had a couple of reasonably solid years as a third down back.

 

as for fisher, he was a seventh round pick! how many seventh rounders from that year lasted more than 2 years league, much less still play in the league today?

 

also, i'm the last one to defend the johnson move. it was terrible. that said, i thought it was obvious in march 01 that flutie gave them a better chance to win, and i supported keeping him, not johnson.

[dave mcbride]

They packed the stadium, they are in great cap shape, they have a few young stars locked up for several years, they have 3-5 star players, and the best special teams in the league. This team is in far, far, far better shape than the mess that Butler left.

 

If you want to go on public record and say if you were GM you would much prefer to inherit the 2000 Bills and all its issues versus the 2006 Bills and all its issues please do.

752377[/snapback]

i'll go on record and say that i'd *far* prefer to inherit the bills from 2000 than the bills from 2005. forget the stadium stuff, which isn't really an issue to me in this conversation.

[Kelly the Dog]

i'll go on record and say that i'd *far* prefer to inherit the bills from 2000 than the bills from 2005.  forget the stadium stuff, which isn't really an issue to me in this conversation.

752379[/snapback]

I forgot that you have this insane and totally unrealistic idea that a GM's job is not to fill the stadium or work the cap or make money as well as sign and draft players, and hire coaches. If it works for you that's all that matters.

 

The Bills cut Ted Washington not because they wanted to but because they DIDNT HAVE THE SALARY CAP ROOM TO NEGOTIATE WITH HIM LET ALONE SIGN HIM at the time he made outrageous demands. It was only later when no one would pay him what he wanted that he tried to come back, and it was too late, and we still didnt have the money.

 

If you wanted to have a team with 20 million over plus Eric Moulds and Sam Cowart and Marcellus Wiley (although we couldnt pay him) and five aging broken down over-priced defenders who didnt do squat the rest of their careers, a QB controversy that ripped the team and fans apart, and no good linemen on either side of the ball that's great.

 

Frankly, I'll take Evans and Spikes and Fletcher and Clements and McGee and Schobel and Willis and 15 million to spend.

[KRT88]

Let's take what we can for him. A 5th?

751721[/snapback]

 

Perhaps we could get a decent back O-linemen. I still fear our O-line will be the undoing of the team.

[inkman]

Perhaps we could get a decent back O-linemen.  I still fear our O-line will be the undoing of the team.

752392[/snapback]

 

Teams don't trade good linemen for washed up backup QB's

[dave mcbride]

I forgot that you have this insane and totally unrealistic idea that a GM's job is not to fill the stadium or work the cap or make money as well as sign and draft players, and hire coaches. If it works for you that's all that matters.

752387[/snapback]

i don't think i'm insane; i simply don't care about the stadium stuff because i never thought there was much chance that the bills would move. clearly, you do care about the stadium and the bills' profitabilty, which is fine. to reiterate, i don't.

[Lurker]

Butler was a pretty good GM overall. But ultimately he failed. To this day, even in retrospect, I support his theory of "going for it" in 1998 and 1999 by grossly over-paying numerous players including Holecek, Ostroski, Henry Jones, Keith Newman, Flutie, etc. in order to make one last push to win the Super Bowl. If he didn't we would have lost them and we wouldn't have had the talent to win it.

 

It failed and it left the team a mess and yet I still support the idea behind it knowing that it failed.

 

But ultimately, it ruined the team for three years. And the most amazing thing about the Great Satan experiment and its utter failure was that Tom Donohoe left the team in a lot better shape than he found it all around, both in personell and monetarily, and John Butler left the team in far worse shape than he found it, in both personell and monetarily.

752370[/snapback]

 

 

The phrase "cake and eat it too" comes to mind. A fan's prerogative, I suppose

 

The Bills went 31-49 during Donahoe's tenure; the 31 wins tied with Cleveland for the third fewest in the NFL during that span. Besides Houston, which joined the league in 2002, the Bills are the only AFC team since 2001 that has failed to make the playoffs.

 

JB left on bad terms, but I'd still say he was a more effective football man than TD was.

[Simon]

i'll go on record and say that i'd *far* prefer to inherit the bills from 2000 than the bills from 2005.

 

[JDG]

Here is what I said about his ability to field a team:

1] "He wasn't wholly bad or evil." That is not a ringing endorsement.

2] "He brought in some good and a few great players" That is not a ringing endorsement either.

3] "There is plenty of criticism to go around", "he surely deserved and needed to be fired", "he didn't get the job done", "he made a lot of errors in judgment, specifically coaching and on the lines", and "his personality turned off too many people so he flat needed to go"

4] I said he did great at filling the seats and on the salary cap and the training camp at St. John Fisher. I would say that's pretty much irrefutable. I suppose it's arguable that he could have left the team with 50 million to spend but that is unreasonable.

 

If I read another poster who said all these things I would think that poster didn't like TD very much at all. Is happy he's gone. Thinks he made a ton of mistakes versus a few good moves. But recognized there are other parts to a GMs job.

752269[/snapback]

 

 

My objection is to your strong implication that Donahoe was "good at most of his job." You didn't say it directly, but you definitely left me with the impression that that was your conclusion - despite your other criticizisms.

 

JDG

[Typical TBD Guy]

And the most amazing thing about the Great Satan experiment and its utter failure was that Tom Donohoe left the team in a lot better shape than he found it all around, both in personell and monetarily.

752370[/snapback]

 

Monetarily? Yes.

 

Personell? Debatable. Going from 3-13 in 5-11 is not indicative of the characterization, "a lot better shape." It took TD half a decade to improve the special teams. That's pretty much it.

 

TD assembled some good LB's, CB's, plus McGahee, Evens, and possibly Losman. In 5 years, you'd expect at least that much. The lines, however (which constitute 40% percent of a roster), are a horror show with only Schobel and possibly Peters as TD players worth a damn. Gandy, Kelsay, and Denney are nothing more than solid but replaceable backups. Villarial is a broken-down, over-paid has-been. Jerman, McFarland, Sape, Jefferson, and Anderson won't be in the league 1-3 years from now. I obviously haven't written off Preston and Geisinger, but it is a tad bit disturbing how neither have created much competition for the starting roles on what's still a very bad interior Bill OL.

 

I don't get it. Are you playing devil's advocate just for the fun of it? Or do you really believe that TD wasn't an absolute disaster for this franchise?

 

All of us Bills fans lost 5 years of our football lives watching TD's group of mentally soft chokers. Coming off the 1990's, it looked like the Bills had finally shaken off the image since the AFL-NFL merger of a franchise laughingstock. Fast forward to 2006, and the Buffalo Bills are again mentioned with the likes of the Cardinals and Lions. The 2006 season is going to be BRUTAL (mid-80's brutal), and it will take Levy at least another year to get this team back to anything resembling playoff-caliber. That's what happens when you take 5 years of not finding quality line talent in favor of the flashy skill players.

 

How are you not !@#$ing livid right now?!

[JDG]

They packed the stadium, they are in great cap shape, they have a few young stars locked up for several years, they have 3-5 star players, and the best special teams in the league. This team is in far, far, far better shape than the mess that Butler left.

 

If you want to go on public record and say if you were GM you would much prefer to inherit the 2000 Bills and all its issues versus the 2006 Bills and all its issues please do.

752377[/snapback]

 

I think you are overweighting the cap clean-up job by Donahoe. What was the last team to get into cap trouble ala the Bills or 49ers? I have the definite impression that cutting the likes of Thomas, Smith, and Reed on the same day (the day TBD turned black) is an event the likes of which the NFL will probably never see again. I don't know if it has been the rapid growth in revenues, or the word getting out about how to manage the cap - but I don't see many instances of "cap jail" coming up like they used to.

 

JDG

[JDG]

TD assembled some good LB's, CB's, plus McGahee, Evens, and possibly Losman.

752433[/snapback]

 

Except for the fact that the McGahee pick both physically and psychologically torpedoed Gregg Williams' critical third season with the Bills. And what has McGahee done for the Bills? So far he has been a career 3.9 yards per carry back. Right now he has been all unrealized potential. And need I mention that Larry Johnson was drafted just a couple picks later? I won't give Donahoe credit for McGahee until he produces - which so far he hasn't done.

 

JDG