Lenny P

[SnakeOiler]

I think holcomb has to go, one way or another. I would cut him if Nall beats him out, or if it is close. From the reports i've heard, there's still at least some players that would prefer holcomb (may have been pre training camp). Don't need another split lockerroom. Cut him and there is no more controversy.

[JDG]

Regardless of the ball-washing, what he reported is true. Ryan Denney is starting to look like a decent pick. Crowell is looking like a good pick. Peters like an excellent signing. Willis may finally arrive. Evans was a great pick. Greer and King look like they can step into another good to great pick's shoes when he leaves. McGee is awesome. TD got a ton of crap for Lindell who is looking like one of the better kickers in the league. He signed the best punter in the league.

 

Things are not black and white. TD was not wholly stupid, bad or evil.

 

Then again, that's how they getcha! 

751740[/snapback]

 

O.k. I agree that TD wasn't wholly evil.

 

He was, however, a disaster for the Bills - from undermining Gregg Williams to hiring Mularkey.

 

I hope you are right about the above players, but I think you may also be reading too much into limited performances. We'll see how the Bills do this year, and I am hopeful that the Bills can be a surprise team this year - but the simple truth of the matter is that it is hard to believe that Donahoe could have stocked a team full of talent that went a combined 9 games below .500 during his tenure.

 

I also question Donahoe's success in making 2nd-day draft picks. Consider the following:

2001 - (Spoon, Sullivan, Driver, O'Leary, Jimmy Williams, Germany, Robertson)

2002 - (Bannan, Kevin Thomas, Pucillo, Rodney Wright, Jarret Ferguson, Stevenson)

2003 - (McGee, Aiken, Sobieski, Sape, Haggan)

2004 - (Euhus, McFarland, J. Smith)

2005 - (King, Geisenger, Gates)

 

Other than hitting on McGee and Aiken in 2003, there aren't any other obvious hits. Indeed, 2001, when he had the most picks, is extraordinarily bad in this regard. Other than that, there's a few guys who played - but again, played for bad teams, and played in spot roles.

 

The non-development of the offensive line is, of course, another major criticism.

 

Regardless of whether or not Losman works out - and the conclusion that Losman, in his third year is better than a 33-year old Kelly Holcomb is *not* vindication of this - there will still be plenty of other criticism of Donahoe to go around.

 

JDG

[Kelly the Dog]

O.k. I agree that TD wasn't wholly evil.

 

He was, however, a disaster for the Bills - from undermining Gregg Williams to hiring Mularkey.

 

I hope you are right about the above players, but I think you may also be reading too much into limited performances.  We'll see how the Bills do this year, and I am hopeful that the Bills can be a surprise team this year - but the simple truth of the matter is that it is hard to believe that Donahoe could have stocked a team full of talent that went a combined 9 games below  .500 during his tenure.

 

I also question Donahoe's success in making 2nd-day draft picks.  Consider the following:

2001 - (Spoon, Sullivan, Driver, O'Leary, Jimmy Williams, Germany, Robertson)

2002 - (Bannan, Kevin Thomas, Pucillo, Rodney Wright, Jarret Ferguson, Stevenson)

2003 - (McGee, Aiken, Sobieski, Sape, Haggan)

2004 - (Euhus, McFarland, J. Smith)

2005 - (King, Geisenger, Gates)

 

Other than hitting on McGee and Aiken in 2003, there aren't any other obvious hits.  Indeed, 2001, when he had the most picks, is extraordinarily bad in this regard.  Other than that, there's a few guys who played - but again, played for bad teams, and played in spot roles. 

 

The non-development of the offensive line is, of course, another major criticism. 

 

Regardless of whether or not Losman works out - and the conclusion that Losman, in his third year is better than a 33-year old Kelly Holcomb is *not* vindication of this - there will still be plenty of other criticism of Donahoe to go around.

 

JDG

752221[/snapback]

Of course there is plenty of criticism to go around, and he surely deserved and needed to be fired. He didn't get the job done. But he did bring a lot of very good players in, a couple great ones. He did a fabulous job getting people in the seats (and it's total bullschitt to complain that it's because he lied to us). He did a fabulous job with St. John Fischer along with Russ Brandon. He left us in 100% better shape in the salary cap than where he found us. Those are all elements of his job, wich is why I said he is not totally evil. He made a lot of errors in judgment, specifically in coaching and on the lines, and his personality turned off too many people in a friendly town and organization so he flat needed to go. That doesn't mean he wasn't good at most of his job.

 

A fan would argue that scoreboard is the only thing that matters with a GM. The man that hired him and pays the bills would not say that.

[dave mcbride]

Of course there is plenty of criticism to go around, and he surely deserved and needed to be fired. He didn't get the job done. But he did bring a lot of very good players in, a couple great ones. He did a fabulous job getting people in the seats (and it's total bullschitt to complain that it's because he lied to us). He did a fabulous job with St. John Fischer along with Russ Brandon. He left us in 100% better shape in the salary cap than where he found us. Those are all elements of his job, wich is why I said he is not totally evil. He made a lot of errors in judgment, specifically in coaching and on the lines, and his personality turned off too many people in a friendly town and organization so he flat needed to go. That doesn't mean he wasn't good at most of his job.

 

A fan would argue that scoreboard is the only thing that matters with a GM. The man that hired him and pays the bills would not say that.

752240[/snapback]

I think that if any somewhat competent nfl gm has five years to work on a team, he's going to find some good players. it's virtually impossible not to. the key thing, in my book, isn't just the record, but the fact that in year five, the bills fielded one of the worst offenses AND worst defenses in team history, statistically speaking.

[D_House]

I think if DJ and Levy are honest with the players and take a firm stance that JP is the QB, and that Holcomb is the backup, that Holcomb will be a valuable member of the roster. He is definitely capable of being a serviceable backup, something that Nall has not yet shown.

[JDG]

Of course there is plenty of criticism to go around, and he surely deserved and needed to be fired. He didn't get the job done. But he did bring a lot of very good players in, a couple great ones. He did a fabulous job getting people in the seats (and it's total bullschitt to complain that it's because he lied to us). He did a fabulous job with St. John Fischer along with Russ Brandon. He left us in 100% better shape in the salary cap than where he found us. Those are all elements of his job, wich is why I said he is not totally evil. He made a lot of errors in judgment, specifically in coaching and on the lines, and his personality turned off too many people in a friendly town and organization so he flat needed to go. That doesn't mean he wasn't good at most of his job.

 

A fan would argue that scoreboard is the only thing that matters with a GM. The man that hired him and pays the bills would not say that.

752240[/snapback]

 

I disagree with this. O.k. the man that hires him and pays the bills *may* not say that, but THE MAN who hired him and paid would not say that. I firmly believe that if you told Ralph Wilson in 2001 that he could choose either:

1) Making a reasonable profit every year for which he remains the active owner of the team

2) Win one Super Bowl in his lifetime and make a small loss in every year for which he remains the active owner of the team,

 

that Ralph Wilson would absolutely choose #2.

 

Secondly, while I agree with you that it is unreasonable to blame Tom Donahoe for lying to us, I think it is worth criticizing him for perennially engaging in the flashy offseason moves that made us the "Team of March and April" every year, which certainly helped fill the seats, but didn't help us be the "Team of December and January." O.k. in fairness to Donahoe, I can't say with certainty that his motivation behind the flashy offseason moves was a desire to fill the seats. It might have been something else, such as his desire to make a name for himself, or perhaps it is even possible that he truly thought that those moves were in the best long-term interests of the franchise. Still, almost every year under Donahoe he was bringing in lots of flashy free agents - many of these were actually some of his more successful moves. After that, though, it gets worse. He traded a first round pick for a Drew Bledsoe who was never that good, and was actually getting worse. He sabotaged Gregg Williams' contract year by making him a lame duck, and then drafting a Willis McGahee that would never be able to play for him. He traded up for a very raw QB from a non-BCS Conference. In the space of four years he managed to use SEVEN 1st and 2nd round draft picks on QB, RB, and WR. And we wonder why this team isn't any good! Granted, each of those moves was reasonable on an individual basis, but taken together, it shows a prolonged pattern of failure at the offensive skill positions. Since Donahoe's track record on the offensive line hardly needs bashing - for what can we then credit him? The defense? After last year? O.k. so he built a great special teams unit, and he put together a nice training camp. A nice training camp, though, makes us the "Team of July and August", that's a little close to where we need to be from being the "Team of March and April", but still a long ways away from "December and January."

 

In short, you act like he primarily had to go because he had an abrasive personality, even though he was "good at most of his job." Sorry, but building a good special teams on a very bad football team and making a fan-friendly training camp is not "most of his job" - and most NFL teams seem to have figured out the salary cap by now as well. I think Donahoe's performance more than made the case for his firing....

 

JDG

[Kelly the Dog]

I disagree with this.  O.k. the man that hires him and pays the bills *may* not say that, but THE MAN who hired him and paid would not say that.  I firmly believe that if you told Ralph Wilson in 2001 that he could choose either:

1) Making a reasonable profit every year for which he remains the active owner of the team

2) Win one Super Bowl in his lifetime and make a small loss in every year for which he remains the active owner of the team,

 

that Ralph Wilson would absolutely choose #2. 

 

Secondly, while I agree with you that it is unreasonable to blame Tom Donahoe for lying to us, I think it is worth criticizing him for perennially engaging in the flashy offseason moves that made us the "Team of March and April" every year, which certainly helped fill the seats, but didn't help us be the "Team of December and January."  O.k. in fairness to Donahoe, I can't say with certainty that his motivation behind the flashy offseason moves was a desire to fill the seats.  It might have been something else, such as his desire to make a name for himself, or perhaps it is even possible that he truly thought that those moves were in the best long-term interests of the franchise.    Still, almost every year under Donahoe he was bringing in lots of flashy free agents - many of these were actually some of his more successful moves.  After that, though, it gets worse.  He traded a first round pick for a Drew Bledsoe who was never that good, and was actually getting worse.    He sabotaged Gregg Williams' contract year by making him a lame duck, and then drafting a Willis McGahee that would never be able to play for him.  He traded up for a very raw QB from a non-BCS Conference.  In the space of four years he managed to use SEVEN 1st and 2nd round draft picks on QB, RB, and WR.  And we wonder why this team isn't any good!  Granted, each of those moves was reasonable on an individual basis, but taken together, it shows a prolonged pattern of failure at the offensive skill positions.  Since Donahoe's track record on the offensive line hardly needs bashing - for what can we then credit him?  The defense?  After last year?  O.k. so he built a great special teams unit, and he put together a nice training camp.  A nice training camp, though, makes us the "Team of July and August", that's a little close to where we need to be from being the "Team of March and April", but still a long ways away from "December and January." 

 

In short, you act like he primarily had to go because he had an abrasive personality, even though he was "good at most of his job."    Sorry, but building a good special teams on a very bad football team and making a fan-friendly training camp is not "most of his job" - and most NFL teams seem to have figured out the salary cap by now as well.  I think Donahoe's performance more than made the case for his firing....

 

JDG

752268[/snapback]

Here is what I said about his ability to field a team:

1] "He wasn't wholly bad or evil." That is not a ringing endorsement.

2] "He brought in some good and a few great players" That is not a ringing endorsement either.

3] "There is plenty of criticism to go around", "he surely deserved and needed to be fired", "he didn't get the job done", "he made a lot of errors in judgment, specifically coaching and on the lines", and "his personality turned off too many people so he flat needed to go"

4] I said he did great at filling the seats and on the salary cap and the training camp at St. John Fisher. I would say that's pretty much irrefutable. I suppose it's arguable that he could have left the team with 50 million to spend but that is unreasonable.

 

If I read another poster who said all these things I would think that poster didn't like TD very much at all. Is happy he's gone. Thinks he made a ton of mistakes versus a few good moves. But recognized there are other parts to a GMs job.

 

Where are all these flashy Free Agent signings?

Takeo Spikes? He's the only one I can think of and he's great.

London Fletcher is probably the second biggest name and contract, and he's made more tackles than any player in the league since he's been here. Lawyer Milloy and Troy Vincent were aging decent players without huge contracts. Probably not worth the money in retrospect but surely not a disaster when it happened. Sam Adams was a damn good player for a couple years.

 

In fact, his two biggest mistakes (outside of the blatant coaching errors) were probably not resigning Pat Williams and drafting Mike Williams, and most people were on his side at the time.

[ROSCOE P. COE TRAIN]

Tip Sheet

 

Arguably the worst-kept secret in the league is that third-year veteran J.P. Losman, a first-round pick in 2004, has won the Buffalo Bills' starting quarterback job. In fact, those who have watched the alleged competition between Losman and journeyman Kelly Holcomb up-close insist that it wasn't even close. A somewhat controversial pick in 2004, Losman has demonstrated more maturity, and might yet vindicate the decision of deposed general manager Tom Donahoe to choose him with the 22nd overall selection in '04.

 

It will be interesting to see how the Bills handle Holcomb's situation. There are several teams still hoping to shore up their backup situation before the season starts, who view Holcomb as a good fit, and who likely would part with a low-round draft choice to acquire him. The Indianapolis Colts snooped around Holcomb earlier in the spring and, if the shoulder problems that plagued No. 2 quarterback Jim Sorgi throughout the offseason linger a while longer, might take another look at him. Dealing the much-traveled 10th-year veteran, however, would leave the Bills perilously shy of talent, with Craig Nall and Kliff Kingsbury the likely backups to Losman. New (but very old) general manager Marv Levy probably isn't inclined to trade Holcomb, but he might have more than a few suitors for him in the next week or so.

751718[/snapback]

 

 

I think KH is a great backup. We keep him. Low salary -- high reward if JP goes down. THis is a rebuilding year, the young guys will be tested. This is JP's team to loose. He had a year of tutoring with Wyche, comes from a good throwing school in Tulane and has all the tools. Like Kyle Boller -- in BAlt. -- the " world is his oyster." Can he create time to throw? Will the line hold up and can Willis help in pass protection? Will Royal chip in for protection? Will the defense and special teams give the kid some good field position? If Folwer a bell cow on the line any QB needs? Can they sustain drives with the running game? Can they stay injury free? These questions are the difference between 8-8 and 4-12 IMO.

[TigerJ]

I don't get how that leaves Buffalo thin at QB. Nall was a solid, long term backup at GB and Kingsbury has been on and NFL roster, plus I think Ochs is still under contract. I still don't know what his injury was.

[Kelly the Dog]

I don't get how that leaves Buffalo thin at QB.  Nall was a solid, long term backup at GB and Kingsbury has been on and NFL roster, plus I think Ochs is still under contract.  I still don't know what his injury was.

752279[/snapback]

I don't know. You really don't know what you have in Nall. He was never really even the #2 in Green Bay except half of one season because the #2 Doug Pederson, who isn't any good, went on IR. He could very well be an excellent #2 in this league, but no one on the planet knows that yet.

[/dev/null]

The real question is who would be dumb enough to make a trade for kelly holcomb? We couldn't even get anything for Drew Bledsoe, you really think someone is gonna give up more than a case of Miller Lite at next year's combine for KH?

[Typical TBD Guy]

In short, you act like he primarily had to go because he had an abrasive personality, even though he was "good at most of his job."    Sorry, but building a good special teams on a very bad football team and making a fan-friendly training camp is not "most of his job" - and most NFL teams seem to have figured out the salary cap by now as well.   I think Donahoe's performance more than made the case for his firing....

752268[/snapback]

 

Well said, JDG.

 

It's not just the ESPN guys who have TD's manhood in their mouths; a small but vocal fraction of this mesage board is still, to this day, slurping up Tom's fertility shake.

 

The 31-49 record since 2001, with 0 playoff appearances, was only matched in incompetence around the NFL by 3 teams: the Cardinals, Lions, and Texans. That's not evidence of an "average" GM. That's downright terrible.

 

In today's parity-friendly NFL, any monkey with an abacus can manage the salary cap, market a pro football team in an area like Western NY (which, BTW, speaks nothing of TD's GM abilities - only his ability as team President, duties of which Ralph has since reclaimed), sign talented free agents, and draft talented players in the first round.

 

It's the "little" stuff - you know, like hiring qualified coaches, drafting in the later rounds, assembling an offensive line, assembling a defensive line, developing/maintaining an overall cohesive plan for winning - that TD couldn't do.

 

This is all, of course, dead horse material. But sometimes it's worth rehashing to make the point that big names and flashy gimmicks mean stojan on the field. Season and postseason results are all that matter. There is no Super Bowl in March or April or July. And so on...

[Dawgg]

Great post. Couldn't have said it better.

 

Well said, JDG.

 

It's not just the ESPN guys who have TD's manhood in their mouths; a small but vocal fraction of this mesage board is still, to this day, slurping up Tom's fertility shake.

 

The 31-49 record since 2001, with 0 playoff appearances, was only matched in incompetence around the NFL by 3 teams: the Cardinals, Lions, and Texans. That's not evidence of an "average" GM. That's downright terrible.

 

In today's parity-friendly NFL, any monkey with an abacus can manage the salary cap, market a pro football team in an area like Western NY (which, BTW, speaks nothing of TD's GM abilities - only his ability as team President, duties of which Ralph has since reclaimed), sign talented free agents, and draft talented players in the first round.

 

It's the "little" stuff - you know, like hiring qualified coaches, drafting in the later rounds, assembling an offensive line, assembling a defensive line, developing/maintaining an overall cohesive plan for winning - that TD couldn't do.

 

This is all, of course, dead horse material. But sometimes it's worth rehashing to make the point that big names and flashy gimmicks mean stojan on the field. Season and postseason results are all that matter. There is no Super Bowl in March or April or July. And so on...

752295[/snapback]

[Kelly the Dog]

In today's parity-friendly NFL, any monkey with an abacus can manage the salary cap, market a pro football team in an area like Western NY (which, BTW, speaks nothing of TD's GM abilities - only his ability as team President, duties of which Ralph has since reclaimed), sign talented free agents, and draft talented players in the first round.

 

 

752295[/snapback]

His predecessor couldn't and didn't the last few years he was here either. He had terrible drafts, mishandled the salary cap in historic proportions, had the team in danger of moving, never realized the potential of regionalization, and left the team in worse shambles than even the Great Satan.

[Brandon]

I think KH is a great backup.  We keep him.  Low salary -- high reward if JP goes down.  THis is a rebuilding year, the young guys will be tested.  This is JP's team to loose.  He had a year of tutoring with Wyche, comes from a good throwing school in Tulane and has all the tools.  Like Kyle Boller -- in BAlt. -- the "  world is his oyster."  Can he create time to throw? Will the line hold up and can Willis help in pass protection?  Will Royal chip in for protection?  Will the defense and special teams give the kid some good field position?  If Folwer a bell cow on the line any QB needs?  Can they sustain drives with the running game?  Can they stay injury free?  These questions are the difference between 8-8 and 4-12 IMO.

752273[/snapback]

 

Actually, Holcomb has the 9th highest base salary on the team for 2006. Granted, that's not the Bills' cap hit for keeping him around, but it does represent the actual money Ralph Wilson will be paying him. It would seem to me to be difficult to justify writing the 9th biggest check on the team to a #3 QB.

[ROSCOE P. COE TRAIN]

Well said, JDG.

 

It's not just the ESPN guys who have TD's manhood in their mouths; a small but vocal fraction of this mesage board is still, to this day, slurping up Tom's fertility shake.

 

The 31-49 record since 2001, with 0 playoff appearances, was only matched in incompetence around the NFL by 3 teams: the Cardinals, Lions, and Texans. That's not evidence of an "average" GM. That's downright terrible.

 

In today's parity-friendly NFL, any monkey with an abacus can manage the salary cap, market a pro football team in an area like Western NY (which, BTW, speaks nothing of TD's GM abilities - only his ability as team President, duties of which Ralph has since reclaimed), sign talented free agents, and draft talented players in the first round.

 

It's the "little" stuff - you know, like hiring qualified coaches, drafting in the later rounds, assembling an offensive line, assembling a defensive line, developing/maintaining an overall cohesive plan for winning - that TD couldn't do.

 

This is all, of course, dead horse material. But sometimes it's worth rehashing to make the point that big names and flashy gimmicks mean stojan on the field. Season and postseason results are all that matter. There is no Super Bowl in March or April or July. And so on...

752295[/snapback]

 

 

In TD's defense, he was building a team to compete right away. He was patching up things. Sure, he did a bruttal job, but he had pressure to have guys who could score poitns and get to the QB and coaches who could make that happen. He micromanagaed the club to death. LEvy has a 3 yr plan and there is ZERO pressure. DJ has a bunch of no-body kids to mould and roundoff. THis is easy till expectations come in the years to come here and we shell out big money for certain guys and the fans start to cry...

[Dawgg]

TD had the same luxury for 3-4 years. Instead of building the offensive line during the rebuilding years, he managed to screw it up bigtime. In addition to the obvious Mike Williams disaster, most of his draft picks at the position were marginal at best -- Marques Sullivan, Mike Picillo, Ben Sobieski, etc... add to that the journeymen he brought in like Bennie Anderson and Kris Farris, he really F'ed it up.

 

It wasn't for a lack of trying though.

 

In TD's defense, he was building a team to compete right away.  He was patching up things.  Sure, he did a bruttal job, but he had pressure to have guys who could score poitns and get to the QB and coaches who could make that happen.  He micromanagaed the club to death.  LEvy has a 3 yr plan and there is ZERO pressure.  DJ has a bunch of no-body kids to mould and roundoff.  THis is easy till expectations come in the years to come here and we shell out big money for certain guys and the fans start to cry...

752306[/snapback]

[Typical TBD Guy]

His predecessor couldn't and didn't the last few years he was here either. He had terrible drafts, mishandled the salary cap in historic proportions, had the team in danger of moving, never realized the potential of regionalization, and left the team in worse shambles than even the Great Satan.

752303[/snapback]

 

Butler's bad behavior as GM is not an adequate excuse for TD.

 

Regarding Butler, I don't feel all that comfortable defending him because he mostly inherited Polian's team, and - just like TD - didn't have the first clue in knowing how to build an OL.

 

Nevertheless, in defense of your accusations towards Butler:

 

1. Many teams, especially those who were very successful in the early 90's, mismanaged the cap in the 90's. By the 21st century, pretty much everyone figured out how the cap system worked.

 

2. The team wasn't in danger of moving because of Butler...blame the WNY politicians for that, as well as Wilson to a certain extent. The regionaliation process, by the way, began in the late 90's before TD came (right around the time that the stadium lease was determined).

 

Can't really argue with your opinion of Butler's drafts. TD's drafts were slightly better...

[Dawgg]

Butler built a team in which the defense was absolutely dominant but special teams was always a concern. Nevertheless, his teams were playoff-caliber and were it not for the Homerun Throwback, might have gone to the Super Bowl. Did he have some poor drafts? Yes. Did he leave the team in a bad salary cap situation? Yes. But that happens to many teams who were trying to win in the short-term. San Francisco, Jacksonville, Tennessee all went through that.

 

His predecessor couldn't and didn't the last few years he was here either. He had terrible drafts, mishandled the salary cap in historic proportions, had the team in danger of moving, never realized the potential of regionalization, and left the team in worse shambles than even the Great Satan.

752303[/snapback]

[ROSCOE P. COE TRAIN]

TD had the same luxury for 3-4 years.  Instead of building the offensive line during the rebuilding years, he managed to screw it up bigtime. In addition to the obvious Mike Williams disaster, most of his draft picks at the position were marginal at best -- Marques Sullivan, Mike Picillo, Ben Sobieski, etc... add to that the journeymen he brought in like Bennie Anderson and Kris Farris, he really F'ed it up.

 

It wasn't for a lack of trying though.

752317[/snapback]

 

 

 

Totally agree. If I am a GM in this league, I start building the OL right off the bat. Mike Williams was one players, beyond him, they added Jonas Jennings, but he was rather injury prone and average. They added Teague too. Then they added about 10 other spare part scubs who never panned out. Poor coaching added to the problem along with an average RB and a green QB and no chipping line blocking by the TEs. Bills are one of the only teams without a drafted OL on their starting roster. Look at the champ teams, they all have drafted timber on the line...