ExiledInIllinois Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Yeah, they actually can move damned quick...when they don't have to deal with state and local governments, and coordinate between a multitude of federal agencies. If those oil fires were in California, with the city, county, and CA state governments as well as DOE, Interior, HHS, EPA, etc. involved, they'd still be burning. It's a lot easier when the emir of a postage-stamp sized Middle Eastern country can call Red Adair and say "Git 'er done", and the US government isn't even involved. 751722[/snapback] Ya... You got me there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Neither what you said, nor what Matty said, are 100% correct. The real truth, I think, lies in delays from both the delays of government and the complications of build a tower this big in memorial of an event (which is what I was trying to say in my last post, a big reason for the delay is in the complications of building a tower, and also lies with the fact that its the government trying to get it done). Or you could just look at the Government as this evil entity who doesn't ever get the job done anywhere, as you are. Its easy to blame the government for any delays when you have an assumption that everything they do never gets done. 751709[/snapback] Oh brother. If you cared to read what I wrote, you would notice that there isn't one Government that's involved, but FIVE "governments" That's the biggest reason for the delay so far, and it's certainly being delayed more by the groups voicing opinions on the memorial. Since you're voicing your opinion, you obviously know that the memorial is being built separately from the commercial buildings and goes through a totally separate approval and funding process. You also obviously know that the complexity of building a 100 story building isn't that different than building a 50 story tower that's already on the site (once you remove the political bickering from the equation). No one knows what to really do with the site, and Silverstein didn't want to get saddled with a white elephant in downtown NY, with no demand for 11 mil sq feet of office space. But you knew that, as well. If you want a good example of the politics surrounding the site - there is a main contractor truck gate at the northeast corner that is manned by private security, Port Authority Police and NYC Police. Before getting to the gate, you have to go through NYPD approval, then they allow you to get to the gate to talk to PATH police to open the gate and then through the private security. The checkpoint isn't there due to security concerns, but is there because the agencies are still squabbling over who's doing a better job protecting a chain linked fence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 In the upper Miss flood of 1993... How many federal levees failed that were under the DIRECT maint of the government? I'd like to see the record for NO in 2005... Betcha a lot of them were not under the direct maint of the USACE... You know when I say direct maintainance... I mean the guys ACTUALLY doing the work... Not some private contractor. 751727[/snapback] USACE, however, is one of the few government organizations I'd trust to be competent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 The problem is simply that Nagin has accepted poor performance as the status quo. Since NY can't get its act together, why should he be expected to? It's so childish on so many fronts that it's almost like the media puts a microphone in his face just to listen to the big baby urp something stupid. "Raymond, why isn't your homework done?" "Well, Billy didn't do his homework yet so why are you looking at me?" God forbid he should try to even IMAGINE excelling at his job regardless of what precedent has been set by others. Must be tough to run a chocolate city. It really must. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted August 25, 2006 Author Share Posted August 25, 2006 Oh brother. If you cared to read what I wrote, you would notice that there isn't one Government that's involved, but FIVE "governments" That's the biggest reason for the delay so far, and it's certainly being delayed more by the groups voicing opinions on the memorial. I used the term "government" as a collective term in my post, not seperating out each agency which is part of the process/trying to be part of it. Since you're voicing your opinion, you obviously know that the memorial is being built separately from the commercial buildings and goes through a totally separate approval and funding process. You also obviously know that the complexity of building a 100 story building isn't that different than building a 50 story tower that's already on the site (once you remove the political bickering from the equation). Indeed, it does go through a totally different process. However, as far as complexity goes, I would wholeheartedly disagree with that statement. Private commercial ventures don't have to deal with the wide-ranging scope of what the public wants, but rather what would be best for the bottom line. Thus, designing a building that fits a budget/a private companies requirements requires much less. The memorial is being done as a public institution, not a private one. This increases the time that goes into development, planning, approval, design, and all other processes to get this built. To just blame the government 100% for the delays is to overlook such things as the original design needing to be redone to be further away from the street. Again, something you seem to be ignoring is that I'm not saying that government inefficiency isn't causing the majority of the delays, but rather that a large chunk of the delays also comes from things outside of governmental control (public desires, design issues, etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UConn James Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Or you could just look at the Government as this evil entity who doesn't ever get the job done anywhere, as you are. Its easy to blame the government for any delays when you have an assumption that everything they do never gets done. 751709[/snapback] Lots of people here do just that, as if private construction never goes over-budget or past deadline, or have unforseen (often due to speed in planning process) problems after completion. I won't argue there isn't reems of red tape w/ govt, or outright stupidity, or corruption. In the end it tends to even out, main difference being a choice of what task is important to govt vs. private sector and at whose say-so. Methinks Nagin was simply trying to say Rome wasn't built in a f---ing day. There are houses in Florida that still aren't repaired from the hurricanes two years ago. NO is going to take time to rebuild under the best of circumstances and good cooperation among all the entities. A number of people who actually have come back to the most damaged sections put their arms in the air and said, "F--- it!" Nagin should strive to succeed and not run behind invalid excuses as he has before. But the phenomenon here is, it's the one-year anniversary and the press wants their hard-hitter 'I'm Woodward and Bernstein incarnate' stories. I'm not seeing how Nagin telling the press to STFU with the Hotpocket But-WHY-isn't-it-done-NOW!?!?! mentality is out of line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNRed Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 The problem is simply that Nagin has accepted poor performance as the status quo. Since NY can't get its act together, why should he be expected to? It's so childish on so many fronts 751757[/snapback] God forbid he should try to even IMAGINE excelling at his job regardless of what precedent has been set by others. 751757[/snapback] YES! (That was sort of what I was trying to say but you made it much clearer.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Indeed, it does go through a totally different process. However, as far as complexity goes, I would wholeheartedly disagree with that statement. Private commercial ventures don't have to deal with the wide-ranging scope of what the public wants, but rather what would be best for the bottom line. Thus, designing a building that fits a budget/a private companies requirements requires much less. The memorial is being done as a public institution, not a private one. This increases the time that goes into development, planning, approval, design, and all other processes to get this built. To just blame the government 100% for the delays is to overlook such things as the original design needing to be redone to be further away from the street. Again, something you seem to be ignoring is that I'm not saying that government inefficiency isn't causing the majority of the delays, but rather that a large chunk of the delays also comes from things outside of governmental control (public desires, design issues, etc). 751764[/snapback] Do you know anything about the history of the project, other than headline tidbits about "process" and "redesigns?" Are you aware that they held a second design competition, after the first was a total failure? Are you aware that the winner of the second competition came up with an inspired design that had zero practical real estate use? Do you even know what you're talking about when saying that the design was changed to move further away from the street? Do you realize that the plan was changed to move Freedom Tower further away from Church STREET to be placed closer to West STREET, because everyone realizes that renting office space in Freedom Tower is going to be very very problematic, and that's why Silverstein fought for his towers to be closer to Church Street and not West Street? Did you know that NYPD security concerns about Freedom Tower had more to do with them getting a seat at the table, rather than affecting the security design of the project. You still haven't answered why if inter-governmental bickering isn't 99% of the reason for the delay, a tower that is part of the World Trade Center complex is already standing and taking tenants. Please tell me how a tower on the north side of Vescey street wouldn't have the same security and other concerns than a tower that will someday sit directly across the street? And, what in the world does this mean, if not an admission that the government is the reason for the delay? Private commercial ventures don't have to deal with the wide-ranging scope of what the public wants, but rather what would be best for the bottom line. Thus, designing a building that fits a budget/a private companies requirements requires much less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 USACE, however, is one of the few government organizations I'd trust to be competent. 751737[/snapback] They are seen as a "rogue" by many... And peope love to take down the rogue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted August 25, 2006 Author Share Posted August 25, 2006 Do you know anything about the history of the project, other than headline tidbits about "process" and "redesigns?" Are you aware that they held a second design competition, after the first was a total failure? Are you aware that the winner of the second competition came up with an inspired design that had zero practical real estate use? Do you even know what you're talking about when saying that the design was changed to move further away from the street? Do you realize that the plan was changed to move Freedom Tower further away from Church STREET to be placed closer to West STREET, because everyone realizes that renting office space in Freedom Tower is going to be very very problematic, and that's why Silverstein fought for his towers to be closer to Church Street and not West Street? Did you know that NYPD security concerns about Freedom Tower had more to do with them getting a seat at the table, rather than affecting the security design of the project. You still haven't answered why if inter-governmental bickering isn't 99% of the reason for the delay, a tower that is part of the World Trade Center complex is already standing and taking tenants. Please tell me how a tower on the north side of Vescey street wouldn't have the same security and other concerns than a tower that will someday sit directly across the street? And, what in the world does this mean, if not an admission that the government is the reason for the delay? 751792[/snapback] *sigh* All I've been saying this whole time is that not all of the friggin delays are caused by the inefficiency of government. There are complexities of having to reach a much wider audience (the entire US basically, but more specifically the population of New York) rather then just the specific audience that you are tailoring it for. Add to this additional public scrutiny and you have a recipe for delays. Your point was that it was the inefficiency of government that caused it to be delayed. The other point that I referenced was that the fact that it has to appeal to a very wide audience and is being scrutinized heavliy is the cause for the delays. My point was that it was probably a lot of both, and that they aren't mutually-exclusive for the causes of the delays. After all, there weren't any delays due to increased scrutiny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacka Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 It's a lot easier when the emir of a postage-stamp sized Middle Eastern country can call Red Adair and say "Git 'er done", and the US government isn't even involved. 751722[/snapback] All I can picture when I read this is Larry the Cable Guy in an Arab headress! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Your point was that it was the inefficiency of government that caused it to be delayed. The other point that I referenced was that the fact that it has to appeal to a very wide audience and is being scrutinized heavliy is the cause for the delays. I'll take it as your admission that 1% of the delays weren't caused by "governments." My point was that it was probably a lot of both, and that they aren't mutually-exclusive for the causes of the delays. After all, there weren't any delays due to increased scrutiny 751814[/snapback] This is the danger of thinking you won a battle by doing a GG search. The "delay" in the security design lasted a whopping two months this year, AFTER the agencies finally agreed to separate Freedom Tower from the rest of the project. That was the battle that took forever. The security design fight was caused by NYPD's insistence that the approved design wasn't safe (baloney). The real reason for the delay was the ongoing positioning between PATH & NYPD. But you know all this in Austin, because you can Google it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted August 25, 2006 Author Share Posted August 25, 2006 I'll take it as your admission that 1% of the delays weren't caused by "governments." I make a statement saying that I referenced two different points and thats what you get out of it. This is the danger of thinking you won a battle by doing a GG search. The "delay" in the security design lasted a whopping two months this year, AFTER the agencies finally agreed to separate Freedom Tower from the rest of the project. That was the battle that took forever. The security design fight was caused by NYPD's insistence that the approved design wasn't safe (baloney). The real reason for the delay was the ongoing positioning between PATH & NYPD. But you know all this in Austin, because you can Google it. So its all the government's inefficiencies, whereas everything that I've read (national news stories, NY Times which I subscribe to, etc) have all pointed to having multiple reasons for the delays besides the government. And I'm supposed to believe that its *only* the government's inefficiencies because you don't live in Austin. Got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 So its all the government's inefficiencies, whereas everything that I've read (national news stories, NY Times which I subscribe to, etc) have all pointed to having multiple reasons for the delays besides the government. And I'm supposed to believe that its *only* the government's inefficiencies because you don't live in Austin. Got it. 751858[/snapback] Good, now we know that you've learned how to use the Internet search function and read NYT online. Now maybe you can link to one of your impecable sources to identify a delay that hasn't been related to New York State, City of New York, New Jersey, Port Authority, Lower Manhattan Development Corp, or NYPD. It only took them two years to agree to who would be in "charge," yet you cite a two month security delay as being a big part of the issue. The whole complex won't be completed for another 5 years, yet WTC 7 is standing tall already. Keep searching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Except this time, he's right. 751530[/snapback] Who gives a flip about New York, we're talking your city Mr Mayor. What the hell does what's going on in NY have anything to do with NO. I true leader never, I repeat NEVER talks like that. He solves problems and leads an area that he has control over and never compares his woes to ones totally unrelated to his. That guy shows time and time again what a poor leader he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted August 26, 2006 Author Share Posted August 26, 2006 Good, now we know that you've learned how to use the Internet search function and read NYT online. Now maybe you can link to one of your impecable sources to identify a delay that hasn't been related to New York State, City of New York, New Jersey, Port Authority, Lower Manhattan Development Corp, or NYPD. It only took them two years to agree to who would be in "charge," yet you cite a two month security delay as being a big part of the issue. The whole complex won't be completed for another 5 years, yet WTC 7 is standing tall already. Keep searching. 751942[/snapback] ......................................__................................................ .............................,-~*`¯lllllll`*~,.......................................... .......................,-~*`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll¯`*-,.................................... ..................,-~*llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll*-,.................................. ...............,-*llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.\................................. .............;*`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll,-~*~-,llllllllllllllllllll\................................ ..............\lllllllllllllllllllllllllll/.........\;;;;llllllllllll,-`~-,........................... ...............\lllllllllllllllllllll,-*...........`~-~-,...(.(¯`*,`,.......................... ................\llllllllllll,-~*.....................)_-\..*`*;..).......................... .................\,-*`¯,*`)............,-~*`~................/..................... ..................|/.../.../~,......-~*,-~*`;................/.\.................. ................./.../.../.../..,-,..*~,.`*~*................*...\................. ................|.../.../.../.*`...\...........................)....)¯`~,.................. ................|./.../..../.......)......,.)`*~-,............/....|..)...`~-,............. ..............././.../...,*`-,.....`-,...*`....,---......\..../...../..|.........¯```*~-,,,, ...............(..........)`*~-,....`*`.,-~*.,-*......|.../..../.../............\........ ................*-,.......`*-,...`~,..``.,,,-*..........|.,*...,*...|..............\........ ...................*,.........`-,...)-,..............,-*`...,-*....(`-,............\....... ......................f`-,.........`-,/...*-,___,,-~*....,-*......|...`-,.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 ......................................__.............................................................................,-~*`¯lllllll`*~,.......................................... .......................,-~*`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll¯`*-,.................................... ..................,-~*llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll*-,.................................. ...............,-*llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.\................................. .............;*`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll,-~*~-,llllllllllllllllllll\................................ ..............\lllllllllllllllllllllllllll/.........\;;;;llllllllllll,-`~-,........................... ...............\lllllllllllllllllllll,-*...........`~-~-,...(.(¯`*,`,.......................... ................\llllllllllll,-~*.....................)_-\..*`*;..).......................... .................\,-*`¯,*`)............,-~*`~................/..................... ..................|/.../.../~,......-~*,-~*`;................/.\.................. ................./.../.../.../..,-,..*~,.`*~*................*...\................. ................|.../.../.../.*`...\...........................)....)¯`~,.................. ................|./.../..../.......)......,.)`*~-,............/....|..)...`~-,............. ..............././.../...,*`-,.....`-,...*`....,---......\..../...../..|.........¯```*~-,,,, ...............(..........)`*~-,....`*`.,-~*.,-*......|.../..../.../............\........ ................*-,.......`*-,...`~,..``.,,,-*..........|.,*...,*...|..............\........ ...................*,.........`-,...)-,..............,-*`...,-*....(`-,............\....... ......................f`-,.........`-,/...*-,___,,-~*....,-*......|...`-,.......... 752092[/snapback] Now if you had only spent half the time learning about the history of WTC and its current predicament, as you did in creating the pretty artwork... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted August 26, 2006 Author Share Posted August 26, 2006 Now if you had only spent half the time learning about the history of WTC and its current predicament, as you did in creating the pretty artwork... 752325[/snapback] Not surprisingly, you don't know how long it took me to create that (0 seconds) nor do you know how long different problems with the WTC project has delayed it (here's a hint, the security problems delayed it longer then 2 months, at least according to what I read back in 2005 in the NY Times). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 Not surprisingly, you don't know how long it took me to create that (0 seconds) nor do you know how long different problems with the WTC project has delayed it (here's a hint, the security problems delayed it longer then 2 months, at least according to what I read back in 2005 in the NY Times). 752334[/snapback] Then you should have no problem detailing the exact nature of that delay, which will support your contention that the delay was caused by design issues and not political wrangling. I can wait, take your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted August 26, 2006 Author Share Posted August 26, 2006 Then you should have no problem detailing the exact nature of that delay, which will support your contention that the delay was caused by design issues and not political wrangling. I can wait, take your time. 752367[/snapback] A lot of it was having to do with changing construction techniques and materials from what I recall. But its cool, government = bad, I got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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