Observations From the Play-by-Play

[jad1]

I'm sorry, from now on only people living in WNY or with a satellite dish will be allowed to have respectable opinions on preseason games.....

 

And from now on, production will no longer matter.  Instead, we're going to get Simon Cowell, Paula Abdul, and Randy Jackson to judge how QB's *look*, rather than how they play....

 

As an added bonus, from now on, we're not going to keep scores in games either.    Instead, victories will be awarded to the team that *looked* the best.....

 

JDG

742475[/snapback]

 

In preseason, scores don't matter, and the guys who look the best do get the roster spots. And while players are not judged by the American Idol crew, they are judged by a large group of coaches and scouts.

[Guest dog14787]

You need to watch the game.

 

JP wasn't great,  but he showed poise we've never seen before.

 

Early on,  he was the victim of some drops,  and being too uptight.

 

Once he settled down,  he looked very good.

 

I don't want to hear he did it against second and third stringers.  If you seen how piss-poor the blocking was,  and how little seperation the receivers were getting,  you'd realize he was at no advantage.

 

I was encouraged by his play,  not because he was good,  but because he looked improved from last year,  all while still learning a new offense.

 

For you to talk about the sacks,  without seeing the game is ignorant.  He escaped at least 2,  that were surefire losses.

 

Out of the 5,  1 was his fault.  1 was a coverage sack,  and the other 3 were terrible protection.  As I stated earlier,  it could have easily been 7.

 

You hammer Losman,  then go on to kiss Moorman's ass.  If you watched the game,  you'd see that Moorman had a couple of brutal punts,  to go with the good ones.

 

In fact,  the camp fodder punter,  had the punt of the night.

 

Maybe you need to take the anti-JP blinders off,  and WATCH the damn game.

 

Bottom line on JP:  He showed the ability to MANAGE A FOOTBALL GAME!!!  On top of that,  he showed decent accuracy in the short passing game.  Both of those were knocks on him coming into this season.

742297[/snapback]

 

 

You said it all my brother, go J.P. GO BUFFALOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ch19079]

if you get a chance, watch the game.

 

Gates's TD was awsome.

 

full flip, landed on his feet and faught for the last yard.

[eball]

I'm sorry, from now on only people living in WNY or with a satellite dish will be allowed to have respectable opinions on preseason games.....

742475[/snapback]

JDG, I haven't even bothered to read the rest of this thread, but you should lighten up a bit. You didn't see or hear a play of this game yet posted some pretty strong "observations" after merely reading the play-by-play transcript.

 

I dare say you asked for what you've gotten here.

[Catholic Guilt]

Second year....  Rookie season.....

 

Hmmmmm......

 

JDG

742656[/snapback]

 

Welcome to my ignored list genius.

[RuntheDamnBall]

I'm sorry, from now on only people living in WNY or with a satellite dish will be allowed to have respectable opinions on preseason games.....

 

And from now on, production will no longer matter.  Instead, we're going to get Simon Cowell, Paula Abdul, and Randy Jackson to judge how QB's *look*, rather than how they play....

 

As an added bonus, from now on, we're not going to keep scores in games either.    Instead, victories will be awarded to the team that *looked* the best.....

 

JDG

742475[/snapback]

In preseason all you're looking for is who LOOKED the best. IT'S THE POINT OF THE FREAKING PRESEASON. And if this game were to go on the record, Losman still would have been the better QB for the team -- he could even have won it for them if that's what they were trying to do. But they were also trying to check out new plays, examine other personnel (god forbid you realize that there are other competitions going on and receivers and linemen might be responsible for some of the execution, or lack thereof).

 

Yes, in preseason, it is all about how things "look." And you didn't look at anything besides an account of the game. You're getting justifiably hammered on it.

[JDG]

JDG, I haven't even bothered to read the rest of this thread, but you should lighten up a bit.  You didn't see or hear a play of this game yet posted some pretty strong "observations" after merely reading the play-by-play transcript.

 

I dare say you asked for what you've gotten here.

742802[/snapback]

 

Thanks for the comment. I am trying not to take this too seriously, and believe me I don't let it get to me.

 

But the truth of the matter is that I posted one strong observation that people seem to have a problem with - which was that Losman's performance was pretty bad. That is hardly an unjustified observation - indeed reading the papers after the game, I see comments from Bills beat writers to the effect that "Craig Nall must feel like he still has a chance after Sunday's game." [You may also argue, as Lori did, that I had a strong comment about Moorman's game, but Leo Roth described Moorman as having a "big night" in today's D&C - so again, I don't seem to have reached an unreasonable conclusion. Opinions may differ, but I'm not off the reservation in my assessment.]

 

The real issue here is that there are certain legionaries of Losman-lovers who simply do not tolerate any criticism of Losman's performances to date, be they horrible, bad, or mediocre at best.

 

I apologize for being a Bills fan outside of Western New York, not owning a satellite dish, and still doing my best to follow the team. The truth of the matter is that I could either:

a) form my opinions about the Bills based on reading accounts of various sportswriters and fans who saw the game, or

b) form my opinions about the Bills based on the above, *and* examining the play-by-play evidence.

 

Is the answer to set up a special message board that is only for fans who actually watched every single Bills preseason and regular season game, so that you all don't have to deal with ignorant fans like me? I am 100% sure that I am not the only fan here who did not watch the game. If I had simply not stated anything about watching the game, or had simply agreed with the conventional wisdom, this conversation wouldn't be happening....

 

The truth of the matter is that I made two mistakes:

1) Being honest and up-front about not having watched the game.

2) Daring to criticize Losman for what seems to have been a mediocre performance at the most generous level of assessment

 

JDG

[RuntheDamnBall]

The real issue here is that there are certain legionaries of Losman-lovers who simply do not tolerate any criticism of Losman's performances to date, be they horrible, bad, or mediocre at best.

742830[/snapback]

Not so.

 

Most objective reporters, JP fans or not, pointed out that he had his early struggles, then got into a rhythm. That there were some really good things, and some bad ones. The head coach said the same damn thing. He didn't say it was horrible, bad, or mediocre. He said "good and bad." And he is objectively evaluating the situation with ultimate say-so in it.

 

OTOH, we haven't seen much outside of anti-Losman crusading from you, so when you volunteer that you didn't watch the damn thing and then pile on the criticism, without pointing out much of the good and JP's ability to sustain some drives in the game, well, again, it's justifiable to hammer you on it.

[Catholic Guilt]

The truth of the matter is that I made two mistakes:

1) Being honest and up-front about not having watched the game. 

2) Daring to criticize Losman for what seems to have been a mediocre performance at the most generous level of assessment

 

JDG

 

 

 

But the truth of the matter is you'll argue about something you didn't see or hear. Like a gossip columnist, you are taking pieces of the story and running with them, ignoring fans like myself who were at the game. I've also posted about Carolina TV color guy and former quarterback Steve Beuerlein raving about his decision making as the game wore on. I have it Tivoed. Would you like me to mail you a copy?

 

Because you like stats to back up your arguements, here are Mr. Beuerlein's credentials:

 

Beuerlein holds many Panthers passing records. These include single-season records, all set in 1999, for passing yards (4,436), touchdowns (36), attempts (571), and completions (343).

 

He holds the top three single-game passing yard totals in team history (373, 368, and 364.) His 5 touchdown passes in the last week of the 1999 season are still a team record.

 

His career records with the Panthers include most attempts (1,723), completions (1,041), passing yards (12,690), passing touchdowns (86), highest completion percentage (60.4%), and highest passer rating (87.7).

 

His 36 touchdown passes were 2nd in the NFL in 1999, and remain the eighth highest single-season total in league history. His 4,436 passing yards led the league, as did his 343 completions. At age 34, Beurlein went to his only Pro Bowl that year.

[MDH]

I apologize for being a Bills fan outside of Western New York, not owning a satellite dish, and still doing my best to follow the team.  The truth of the matter is that I could either:

a) form my opinions about the Bills based on reading accounts of various sportswriters and fans who saw the game, or

b) form my opinions about the Bills based on the above, *and* examining the play-by-play evidence. 

 

 

JDG

742830[/snapback]

 

 

There's an option "c": hold off on forming an opinion until you watch the team play.

[JÂy RÛßeÒ]

There's this band that sucks. I've never seen them or heard their music, but I read the lyrics.

 

[Buckeye Eric]

 

Kelly Holcomb clearly had a horrible outing. 

742276[/snapback]

 

 

Not as bad as Todd Collin's game last night!

[Matt in KC]

There's an option "c": hold off on forming an opinion until you watch the team play.

742854[/snapback]

There's nothing wrong with forming an opinion if you keep an open mind and consider more information as it becomes available. If for instance JP had three of his incompletions come on long bombs that hit the receivers on the numbers, that would paint a different picture of what happened, than what you might think just reading the stats (and the post-game articles).

 

On the other hand, those of us who watched the game should also be open to considering the stats now that we're finished the game and forming an opinion play-by-play.

 

I thought JP played well, better than I was expecting. In particular, he seemed a bit calmer and more focused and stepped up into the pocket several times. Yes, he struggled to get going the first half-dozen passes, and he took a few more sacks than I (or he) would like, but besides these points, I thought he looked like a QB that could lead us to the playoffs some day - - the first time I have thought that.

 

Hearing the stats (<10 yards per completion) made me wonder if they were holding him back from the long-ball to get him in a rhythm getting rid of the ball quickly. I wouldn't have thought about this if JDG hadn't cited the stats.

[ganesh]

Not as bad as Todd Collin's game last night! 

742906[/snapback]

 

And worse for the Redskins, they lost their premier RB for an indefinite amount

of time......That sucks considering how competitive that division has been...

 

I can see now Mr. Scrooge Snyder throwing money and next years 1st rounder

to get a Thomas Jones from Chicago....

[faderphreak]

Feel free to name them at any time - I'd be interested to see it....

742653[/snapback]

 

OK just to make sure I have this straight?

 

You said

 

"it seems to me that there are scant few examples of a second-year QB performing as badly as Losman did last year and going on to good things..."

 

Now there are a ton of others who have recently taken their teams to playoffs after seasons ranging from less than stellar to absolutely horrific.

 

 

I'm sure that the the definition of good things is subjective but whatever...

 

few examples of a second year quarterbacks performing as bad and going on to good things. OK then, here we go...

 

 

<BTW> you can look up the stats yourself. I'm not taking the time to try and format them to look nice. They don't come in fields when you pull them off the Hall Of Fame website

 

 

HOF George Blanda the first four years...

 

HOF Troy Aikman the first two years (and he started his whole rookie season)

 

HOF Terry Bradshaw the first five years

 

HOF Len Dawson the fisrt four years (there was one aberation)

 

HOF Dan Fouts the first three years

 

HOF Bob Greise the first three

 

HOF Bobby Lane the first SIX years

 

HOF Warren Moon the first three years

 

HOF Joe Namath the first two years

 

HOF Bart Starr the first four years

 

HOF Roger Staubach the fisrt two years

 

HOF Fran Tarkenton the first two years

 

HOF YA Tittle the first three years

 

HOF Bob Waterfield the first two years

 

HOF Steve Young the first two years.

 

 

Sorry I was too busy at work today to do your research for you. Fortunately the thoughts of football, and looking into history are a nice way to wind down the day. So here is the breakdown. Of the 23 Hall of Fame quarterbacks, only Otto Graham, Sonny Jurgenson, John Elway, Montana, Johnny U, Norm Van Broklin, and our own Jim Kelly had good second seasons. In fact at least five guys I listed had worse 2nd years. Aikman barely gets the nod with a rating of 66.6 in his second year. If you don't believe me you can check for yourself. HOF By the way, I took you to mean as bad a second year QB. If we just want to with a year that was statistically that bad early in their careers we can add a couple more of those Hall of Famers to the list.

 

Now before you get your panties in a bunch, I want to point out that I am not in any way, shape, or form, comparing JP to those Hall Of Famers. I am saying that quarterbacks take time to develop. I am not saying that JP is or will ever be great. There may, I did say may, be potential but we need to see a full season under his belt. Not a season where he missed most of training camp and the regular season. Not a season in which he had no line, a weak running game, and recievers that dropped a lot of passes. Not a season in which he has a coach that is so scared of the GM, players, and owner that rather than let the kid take his lumps and properly develop, instead chose to pull him to "win now" which only set back his development and gave him an even greater hurdle to overcome.

 

My point is that it is too soon to tell. I hope he does play well, believe me, down here in the land of the Bucs, Fins, and Jags, I'd love to be able to smile alot more on Monday mornings. If he gets a year to start and have the game slow down for him, maybe next year I will. This year the whole team needs to grow. If they grow together maybe we will be lucky enough to regain some of that lost magic. If we get a miracle and the light goes on for JP and about four other key players, the special teams stay as good, and the defense regains it's old form, maybe we compete for the playoffs. We don't have any better options so we may as well hope for the best. If all you look for in life are the negatives, thats all you'll ever find.

 

 

Life is too short.

 

 

Your point, from what I gather, is that JP sucks. Yes? Your alternative this year?

[JDG]

Faderphreak:

 

Good research.

 

To clarify, I said "it seems to me that there are scant few examples of a second-year QB performing as badly as Losman did last year and going on to good things....".

 

While you provided numerous examples of QB's who did badly in the second year in the NFL, I specifically said *as badly* as JP Losman did. Thus, in answer to your question, my point is this - that few Bills fans seem to truly comprehend just *how* bad JP Losman really was last year. Instead, many (most) Bills Fans seem to take that attitude that either a QB is good or is bad, and of course there are lots of quarterbacks who were bad early in their careers. Again, my point, is that even considering how bad many of these QB's were in their second year in the NFL, JP Losman was *worse*.

 

Specifically, I think there are two statistics that sum up JP Losman's abysmal year - a completion percentage under 50% and passing for less than 6 yards per attempt. In all the examples you listed, only a handfull of old-timers managed less than 50% completion in their second year. All managed more than 6.0 yards per attempt.

 

In a couple of the cases of the old-timers you list, the player did not play for several seasons. You asked me what my alternative for this year is. My alternative is to play the QB who gives us the best chance to win games. Hopefully, that QB is JP Losman - but I also don't believe that the Bills should pound our heads against a wall. Losman *must*, in my mind, meet minimum standards for NFL competency. NOTE: I am not saying that Losman has to be good. On the contrary, I am just asking for Losman to be *bad* enough to merit additional playing time. If Losman can be *as bad* as a Steve Young or John Elway in their second seasons, then he'll merit additional playing time. If he can't even complete 50% of his passes, can't produce more than 6 yards per attempt, and becomes a turnover machine - then I say put Craig Nall in there and see what he can do.

 

JDG - just back from vacation.....

[JDG]

There's nothing wrong with forming an opinion if you keep an open mind and consider more information as it becomes available.  If for instance JP had three of his incompletions come on long bombs that hit the receivers on the numbers, that would paint a different picture of what happened, than what you might think just reading the stats (and the post-game articles).

 

On the other hand, those of us who watched the game should also be open to considering the stats now that we're finished the game and forming an opinion play-by-play.

 

I thought JP played well, better than I was expecting.  In particular, he seemed a bit calmer and more focused and stepped up into the pocket several times.  Yes, he struggled to get going the first half-dozen passes, and  he took a few more sacks than I (or he) would like, but besides these points, I thought he looked like a QB that could lead us to the playoffs some day - - the first time I have thought that.

 

Hearing the stats (<10 yards per completion) made me wonder if they were holding him back from the long-ball to get him in a rhythm getting rid of the ball quickly.  I wouldn't have thought about this if JDG hadn't cited the stats.

743028[/snapback]

 

Thanks for posting something reasonable.

 

I was interested to see above that Steve Buerlein was complimenting Losman's poise on TV. I can't help but wonder if that influenced peoples' perceptions of his performance, compared to those who didn't see the TV broadcast. (Reading the Bills' beat-writers (many of whom presumably did not see the TV feed) after the game, their opinions seemed closer to mine than to the opinions of many on this board.) Sort of like a Nixon-Kennedy thing.

 

JDG - Back from vacation...