Who was the cancer...

[Rico]

Drew. He may have the left the team, but the bad karma still remained.

Then the Meathead, Moulds, and Fat Sam.

[daquixers_is_back]

I know I am in the minority, but I really did not think that Tom Donahoe was that bad of a GM. I have by far seen worse. He dropped the ball on Gregg Williams and drafted/signed a few "huh" players. But he also brang in some quality players ... nate clements, aaron schobel, takeo spikes, drew bledsoe (first year looked like the right move), mcgahee, parrish, evans, got a first round for peerless price ... etc ... Dont mis-understand me now. I do not think he was a great GM by any means but I think he received a larger slice of blame from the blame pie than others who deserved a fair piece of it also. Hope that made sense.

[Alaska Darin]

Oh man, spend a day working where I do...people carry on here like they are the best of friends, put on presentations kissing eachothers' asses, so sick, you can't bare it....when push comes to shove though, they are all, for the most part, back-stabbing eachother at any opportunity they can, where it will be beneficial to themselves. 

Yeah, most people are Aholes. I get that. However, you don't continue to communicate with people who fug you unless you absolutely have to. Couch and Holcomb apparently still talk regularly. If Holcomb was really screwing Couch over, why would he have anything to do with him now?

 

I am not saying I know that this is what is happening in Buffalo, with the Bills QB's, I am just saying that is what I heard from an avid Clevland Browns fanatic.  I also remember, when the Bills obtained Holcomb, hearing something similar...

I'm an avid fan of the Buffalo Bills. I know dick about what goes on in the locker room, just like 99.9% of the rest of the avid BILLS' fans. I take all that crap with a grain of salt because the majority of it is utter BS.

 

IMO, it is very possible that there is always going to be a little of this, when two people are competing for the same job. It is only human nature, and is probably even more pronounced in something as competitive as athletics.

In my experience, it's less pronounced because the people involved are far more likely to confront one another. High testosterone environments rarely have conflicts that don't end up in a mushroom cloud if they're serious.

 

I think that Holcomb is likely more of a professional, and a bit more mature than Flutie might have been, back in 1998...but I don't doubt that he really wants, and thinks he deserves, the starting QB role with the Bills.

741121[/snapback]

I wouldn't want him on the team if he was satisfied with being a backup. That'd make him a loser.

[Pyrite Gal]

I know I am in the minority, but I really did not think that Tom Donahoe was that bad of a GM. I have by far seen worse. He dropped the ball on Gregg Williams and drafted/signed a few "huh" players. But he also brang in some quality players ... nate clements, aaron schobel, takeo spikes, drew bledsoe (first year looked like the right move), mcgahee, parrish, evans, got a first round for peerless price ... etc ... Dont mis-understand me now. I do not think he was a great GM by any means but I think he received a larger slice of blame from the blame pie than others who deserved a fair piece of it also. Hope that made sense.

741173[/snapback]

 

You may be in the minority of folks recognizing that TD had some good (to actually great in some aspects) GM skills but I hope you take solace that the minority is correct in judging that there have been far worse GMs.

 

I probably do not agree with this totally as some may see some contradiction with the fact that overall I think TD sucked as a GM (I make this statement because the real measure is W/L and playoffs made and by that measure it is hard to reach any other conclusion of the big picture that TD sucked in this prime GM responsiblity).

 

However, many people spring from this correct result to make the claim that he simply sucked in all aspects of being a GM when actually I think an examination of the facts of his record shows that he did a good to great job at these aspects of being a GM:

 

1. The business side of managing the team- Part of TD's duties was not only to manage the team in the traditional GM role, but he was given the expanded GM title of President of the Bills and had responsibility for also managing many if not all parts of the business side of the franchise. From the big move to St. John's Fisher from Fredonia, to the overarching implementation of the regional business strategy to compensate for Buffalo being a small TV market, to helping move the a franchise that until recently stored an cataloged will call tickets in shoe boxrs , TD oversaw the move of the franchise business practices belatedly into the 20th century and beyond by pioneering the compurerization of many aspects of the business.

 

2. Managing the cap- Some folks belittle the accomplishment of his getting us out of cap hell at least a year earlier than most (if not all) pundits predicted as he dealt with John Butler's (correct IMHO) activities of robbing Peter to pay Paul as he gave long term deals and distributed the bonuses of old Bills as he attempted to keep the team together. Though I do not fault Butler for doing this as he dealt with the impacts of some horrible decisions by Ralph and him regarding the QB which weighed down the cap, though with the exception of the 97 season he kept this team competitive for several years longer than it reasonably could have been. We woulda/coulda taken a smaller cap hit if the team had reloaded and cut deadwood in 96 or so, but it would have been tough if they had timed the demise of folks careers correctly to boot stalwarts llike Jimbo, or the Big Three when their production merited it. Ge mortgaged the future to hang onto a core connected to the SBs but I can't fault him for that and the caphell that was coming was obvious.

 

That being said, some folks say how tough is it to cut folks and what TD did in his first year was simple, but one need only look at the teams which have continually had cap problems or look at other great franchises like SF which had ownership issues leading to a cap butchering they still have not recovered from to see that it ain't rote and simple at all.

 

Add to that TD having a clear record of successfully negotiating with Pro Bowlers like Sam Adams to get them for what is seen as less than his market price and also attracting Pro Bowlers like TKO to this small market when he could have gone lots of places as an FA. Like Ralph and Butler, TD also has a clear record of mangling the QB cap situation, but along with these personnel boners, TD left Marv and outstanding cap situation to deal with.

 

3. I think he did pretty well with the crap shoot known as the draft-

 

There is the notable exception of the massive screw up of selecting MW, but I am a real heretic in that I think a look at the actual picks shows TD have drafted a number of players that were great assessments to join with the boners to make his record with draft crap shoot better than most draft managers. I think many of us fans thanks to wall to wall coverage of ESPN and the interest in fantasy leagues simply place to much emphasis on the draft imports,

 

As far as I know TD's contention that 50% of first round choices turn out to be disappintments AND even busts is not controverted by any statistical or objective analysis I have seen. In fact one of the smarter things TD seemed to realize was that in general it is a better idea to trede away your 1st round choice rather than give that player a slotted big contract only to have 50% not deserve the contract. TD did a good job trading away the first rounder to satisfy more immediate needs,

 

There may be a legitimate complaint about his work that his second day choices did not generally yield top quality players (besides McGee) when we Bills fans were pretty used to getting nuggets like Andre late in the draft. However, even this contention would need to show that other teams as a whole routinely do get these nuggets on the second day and I have seen no evidence beyond attempts to claim a Terrell Davis choice is more of a rule rather than the exception it probably was. I think TDs draft work was pretty good and I am happy to see anything beyond the usual virtual fact-free or mere episodic rants that claim he was bad.

 

4. Trade olanning and implementation- One of the best aspects of TDs work is the job he did pulling off trades like getting a 1st for PP, getting anything for Travis Henry, trading down as mentioned before and still getting the 1st CB in the draft, and other deals. Some of his plans were not good plans, but TD always had a plan and worked it through trades. Generally, he did not panic such as when his seeming plan to trade Henry fell apart as 3 RBs went to his likely trade partners in the first round, but rather than panic he still made a deal for Henry which got the Titans a player soon suspended for drug abuse/

 

Still, all these good aspects of his work are dwarfed IMHO by the big factor that TD seemed to be most motivate either conciously or unconciously by making sure that he was never fired again by an HC he hired as Cowher did in Pitts. I think he allowed this motivation to cause him to hire GW instead of getting Fox or Lewis and to be passive/aggressive with his management of the GW to the detriment of the Bills winning.

 

Finally, he seemed to choose to use 05 as a training session for JP instead of working to give the team a better chance of winning (even if it was a bad chance it was better than JPs play) by playing out the results of his stupid move of extending Bledsoe (he should not have extended him after his horrendous 03, but once he did he should have stuck with that choice.

 

The overarching mania of making sure he could defend himself from his HC is what I think led Ralph to correctly fire him.

 

However, though you may not share my same final conclusion, i would join you in recognizing the many good aspects of TD GM work.

[drg2021]

I dont know.

 

Did anyone see Losman get kind of pissed when John Murphy kept asking about last year??  It was on Murphs TV sports show at 7pm.

 

Losman said "DUDE, next question.  Stop asking about the past."

 

I thought he was about to pull a Ryan Leaf for a second there.

 

But any way, DUDE, next question.  The past is the past.

740534[/snapback]

Well he certainlly plays like Ryan Leaf

[daquixers_is_back]

You may be in the minority of folks recognizing that TD had some good (to actually great in some aspects) GM skills but I hope you take solace that the minority is correct in judging that there have been far worse GMs.

 

I probably do not agree with this totally as some may see some contradiction with the fact that overall I think TD sucked as a GM (I make this statement because the real measure is W/L and playoffs made and by that measure it is hard to reach any other conclusion of the big picture that TD sucked in this prime GM responsiblity).

 

However, many people spring from this correct result to make the claim that he simply sucked in all aspects of being a GM when actually I think an examination of the facts of his record shows that he did a good to great job at these aspects of being a GM:

 

1. The business side of managing the team-  Part of TD's duties was not only to manage the team in the traditional GM role, but he was given the expanded GM title of President of the Bills and had responsibility for also managing many if not all parts of the business side of the franchise.  From the big move to St. John's Fisher from Fredonia, to the overarching implementation of the regional business strategy to compensate for Buffalo being a small TV market, to helping move the a franchise that until recently stored an cataloged will call tickets in shoe boxrs , TD oversaw the move of the franchise business practices belatedly into the 20th century and beyond by pioneering the compurerization of many aspects of the business.

 

2. Managing the cap- Some folks belittle the accomplishment of his getting us out of cap hell at least a year earlier than most (if not all) pundits predicted as he dealt with John Butler's (correct IMHO) activities of robbing Peter to pay Paul as he gave long term deals and distributed the bonuses of old Bills as he attempted to keep the team together.  Though I do not fault Butler for doing this as he dealt with the impacts of some horrible decisions by Ralph and him regarding the QB which weighed down the cap, though with the exception of the 97 season he kept this team competitive for several years longer than it reasonably could have been.  We woulda/coulda taken a smaller cap hit if the team had reloaded and cut deadwood in 96 or so, but it would have been tough if they had timed the demise of folks careers correctly to boot stalwarts llike Jimbo, or the Big Three when their production merited it. Ge mortgaged the future to hang onto a core connected to the SBs but I can't fault him for that and the caphell that was coming was obvious.

 

That being said, some folks say how tough is it to cut folks and what TD did in his first year was simple, but one need only look at the teams which have continually had cap problems or look at other great franchises like SF which had ownership issues leading to a cap butchering they still have not recovered from to see that it ain't rote and simple at all.

 

Add to that TD having a clear record of successfully negotiating with Pro Bowlers like Sam Adams to get them for what is seen as less than his market price and also attracting Pro Bowlers like TKO to this small market when he could have gone lots of places as an FA. Like Ralph and Butler, TD also has a clear record of mangling the QB cap situation, but along with these personnel boners, TD left Marv and outstanding cap situation to deal with.

 

3.  I think he did pretty well with the crap shoot known as the draft-

 

There is the notable exception of the massive screw up of selecting MW, but I am a real heretic in that I think a look at the actual picks shows TD have drafted a number of players that were great assessments to join with the boners to make his record with draft crap shoot better than most draft managers.  I think many of us fans thanks to wall to wall coverage of ESPN and the interest in fantasy leagues simply place to much emphasis on the draft imports,

 

As far as I know TD's contention that 50% of first round choices turn out to be disappintments AND even busts is not controverted by any statistical or objective analysis I have seen.  In fact one of the smarter things TD seemed to realize was that in general it is a better idea to trede away your 1st round choice rather than give that player a slotted big contract only to have 50% not deserve the contract.  TD did a good job trading away the first rounder to satisfy more immediate needs,

 

There may be a legitimate complaint about his work that his second day choices did not generally yield top quality players (besides McGee) when we Bills fans were pretty used to getting nuggets like Andre late in the draft.  However, even this contention would need to show that other teams as a whole routinely do get these nuggets on the second day and I have seen no evidence beyond attempts to claim a Terrell Davis choice is more of a rule rather than the exception it probably was.  I think TDs draft work was pretty good and I am happy to see anything beyond the usual virtual fact-free or mere episodic rants that claim he was bad.

 

4. Trade olanning and implementation- One of the best aspects of TDs work is the job he did pulling off trades like getting a 1st for PP, getting anything for Travis Henry, trading down as mentioned before and still getting the 1st CB in the draft, and other deals.  Some of his plans were not good plans, but TD always had a plan and worked it through trades.  Generally, he did not panic such as when his seeming plan to trade Henry fell apart as 3 RBs went to his likely trade partners in the first round, but rather than panic he still made a deal for Henry which got the Titans a player soon suspended for drug abuse/

 

Still, all these good aspects of his work are dwarfed IMHO by the big factor that TD seemed to be most motivate either conciously or unconciously by making sure that he was never fired again by an HC he hired as Cowher did in Pitts.  I think he allowed this motivation to cause him to hire GW instead of getting Fox or Lewis and to be passive/aggressive with his management of the GW to the detriment of the Bills winning.

 

Finally, he seemed to choose to use 05 as a training session for JP instead of working to give the team a better chance of winning (even if it was a bad chance it was better than JPs play) by playing out the results of his stupid move of extending Bledsoe (he should not have extended him after his horrendous 03, but once he did he should have stuck with that choice.

 

The overarching mania of making sure he could defend himself from his HC is what I think led Ralph to correctly fire him.

 

However, though you may not share my same final conclusion, i would join you in recognizing the many good aspects of TD GM work.

741229[/snapback]

 

If this was the pre-season of 2004 then I would have agreed with you on the Bledsoe issue ... but as it stands now, Im not so sure it was the people around him that played horrible rather than him. One year after he left the Bills, learned a new offense, gained a new coaching staff, new players around him ... etc he threw 23 Touchdowns for over 3,600 yards and a passer rating of 83.7 ....

[Risin]

Well he certainlly plays like Ryan Leaf

741397[/snapback]

 

 

Yeah.

 

He looked just like Ryan Leaf tonight.

 

[RayFinkle]

I wouldn't want him on the team if he was satisfied with being a backup.  That'd make him a loser.

741176[/snapback]

Post of the year Darin, post of the year.

[Buftex]

Yeah, most people are Aholes.  I get that.  However, you don't continue to communicate with people who fug you unless you absolutely have to.  Couch and Holcomb apparently still talk regularly.  If Holcomb was really screwing Couch over, why would he have anything to do with him now?

I'm an avid fan of the Buffalo Bills.  I know dick about what goes on in the locker room, just like 99.9% of the rest of the avid BILLS' fans.  I take all that crap with a grain of salt because the majority of it is utter BS.

In my experience, it's less pronounced because the people involved are far more likely to confront one another.  High testosterone environments rarely have conflicts that don't end up in a mushroom cloud if they're serious.

I wouldn't want him on the team if he was satisfied with being a backup.  That'd make him a loser.

741176[/snapback]

 

 

All great points...I will take your word that Holcomb & Couch are still the best of friends...it still wouldn't disprove anything (Couch is not threat to Holcomb's job now!)...but in retrospect, you are correct...I wish I hadn't braught it up at all...