KRC Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 So he was planning on being down one run in the bottom of the last inning with the tying run at third and two outs and his slugger due up? That guy is a genius. 741034[/snapback] No. He was planning on having his best hitter before his worst hitter. The situation (last inning, down by a run, blah...blah...blah) has nothing to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 i would walk the best hitter to get to the poorer hitter......then me being me, i might then go serve up a gopher ball so he can knock one out. but then again, at 10 they should begin to understand that not everyone can or should make the team, if you are not good enough, find out what u are good at and go out for that, the entitlement mentality of our society has to subside. 740416[/snapback] I'm sorry, that's silly and these are kids playing. This mentality has killed the love of too many kids for the game. I've spent a lot of time with Little League as a player, coach, and umpire, and the worst thing for it is jerk coaches/parents who think that winning is everything when you're dealing with 8-12 year-olds. What sometimes happens is even the star athletes are pushed too hard by their folks and they end up giving up. When I was young my dad coached the team, and I still have friends say that he was the best coach he ever had. He gave everyone who was willing to make an effort a chance. Not that he just let everyone pitch, etc -- they had to prove to him that they wanted to pitch. It was all anyone needed, because he respected everyone enough to give them a chance. We didn't win every game, but we had a blast and it was not the end of the world when we did lose, because we were always trying hard and we believed in our coach and in each other. I can look back and remember that time more fondly than a lot of the kids who were "better players" can. Sure, it's important to teach kids about competition and all, but teaching them that they're never going to have a shot at age 10? What kind of America is that? Up until 12, if kids want to play, let them play, and make it enjoyable for them, not a burden they have to shoulder of being the best. I hope you re-evaluate where you stand on this, honestly, because you seem like a decent dude. Edit: also, just for the record, I agree that if a championship is on the line that the coach didn't put his players in the best position to succeed. You counter strategy with strategy and if you do want to win, and you want that kid to play, you put him in the nine hole where he has the leadoff hitter for protection and is not right behind the team's best slugger in the order. I probably would have walked the slugger, too. Although if my team was really the best, I'd love to think we could have gotten the guy out regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 Wow, a whole 150 games?! Well obviously everyone in the thread must bow down before your immense knowledge of all things baseball. Except you havn't seen a game in Utah... You probably havn't seen a PONY league game (maybe something similar, but not that league - see Utah comment above). And frankly, 150 games is hardly anything. Assume a 10 team league with a 10 game season -- that's 50 games per season, so you've seen the equivalent of a whopping three seasons of ONE league. Of course there are THOUSANDS of leagues across the country, so just because you havn't seen an intentional walk doesn't mean they don't happen. Would you feel differently if I told you that I've seen intentional walks with kids that age? Or doesn't that count, because I havn't seen 150 games like you have? Not trying to be rude (ok, maybe a little...), but coming off saying, "I've seen 150 games, so obviously I know everything about little league baseball and the coach is obviously a jackass" just makes no sense whatsoever. And you never did answer my question about at what age kids should start caring about winning. I'm really curious, since obviously having a playoff format for a league doesn't mean they should care about winning according to you. CW 741219[/snapback] I never said I knew everything, but I do think seeing as many games as I have indicates that intentional walks are at least unusual. To know for sure, we'd need the scorebooks from their league, which we don't have. If I came off as knowing everything about the frequency of intentional walks then it was too much. Similarly, you can't claim to know that they were frequent in the league and say things like "he probably would have walked him to get to the fourth best hitter". What if Jordan was hitting .579 and the fourth best hitter was hitting .512? Would you walk the winning run then? Have you seen intentional walks with kids that age or was your question just hypothetical? So far nobody in this thread has said they've seen this. (Not that it is important, but I played in pony league and I caught. We never walked anyone then either. Our town is now Cal Ripken so it is a bit of a different format today. If you're saying mormons have more of a propensity toward intentional walks then you may be right. I have never even been to Utah.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 According to OGTEleven it was just oversight that the intentional walk rule was still included... I do agree that not allowing a pinch hitter is a dumbass rule too... . 741265[/snapback] Way to refute your own argument....this is just like PPP. The pinch hitter and intentional walk can and do balance each other at all levels of baseball. The presence of one and absence of the other creates an imbalance. Rules are intended to promote balance, not inhibit it. There are many things screwed up about having a championship game in a league like this. Most of them have nothing to do with either coach. The first coach just took advantage of one of them. The most glaring to me is the four run per inning rule. It's there so the parents can get the kids to bed before 4 AM, but to me, can kill the "legitimacy" of a "championship". What if one team scores 4 runs and has the bases loaded in three of the innings before the first out is recorded and no runs in the other three innings. The other team scores 3, 3, 3, 2, 1, 1 and gets put out in all six? They win 13-12 but only got 18 outs to do it, and the other team got 9 outs and 12 runs. Which team is better at baseball? Either play by real rules or don't call it a championship. (Yes, I understand that there are reasons for both intentional walks and pinch hitters, but offsetting each other is part of the game.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 All rancor aside, I'll clarify my position here: If intentional walks were used routinely as part of this league, and thus the cancer kid was treated equally, I have no problem with the coach. If the intentional walk was never used but the coach used it as a loophole because he saw the cancer kid on deck and the slugger at the plate, I think he is a scum bag. My guess is that the latter is true. Maybe I have overestimated my personal knowledge in the matter. Maybe Reilly played it up as unusual (the umpire was shocked to see an intentional walk and even the 8 year old sister uncovered the plot) for the sake of the story and I got suckered in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezmid Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 If the intentional walk was never used but the coach used it as a loophole because he saw the cancer kid on deck and the slugger at the plate, I think he is a scum bag. My guess is that the latter is true. Maybe I have overestimated my personal knowledge in the matter. Maybe Reilly played it up as unusual (the umpire was shocked to see an intentional walk and even the 8 year old sister uncovered the plot) for the sake of the story and I got suckered in. 741335[/snapback] Since Reilly wrote that the kid could "barely swing a bat", I question everything that's in the article (if the kid couldn't play at all, would he even want to be on the team, let alone would he have made it to a championship game with his team?) And to answer your previous question about intentional walks -- I havn't seen any myself (but then again, I've never watched a little league game, nor did I play). However, I have some PMs saying that they HAVE seen intentional walks at that level -- but the person doesn't want to get drawn into the fight so is keeping his mouth shut. So I decided to do some searches to see about intentional walks. Here's some things I found: http://www.decatursports.com/drills/base/johns.htm ". And finally, we decided to intentionally walk the batter to set up a force play." http://experts.about.com/q/Baseball-Instru...tional-walk.htm "Intentional walks are one of the tools that a manager uses to try and prevent the other team from scoring runs.....Unless your coach is intentionally walking Jack in practice, you need not worry about his development. He is in a 9-10 division, after all." http://www.josephfkelly.com/right_back_whe...d_walk_spo.html "And I call the catcher over to the dugout to explain how he needs to position himself for an intentional walk." (NOTE: I'm not sure how old these players were, but it's little league). So as you can see, it DOES happen in Little League. Maybe not in your area, but across the country it does. CW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 Since Reilly wrote that the kid could "barely swing a bat", I question everything that's in the article (if the kid couldn't play at all, would he even want to be on the team, let alone would he have made it to a championship game with his team?) And to answer your previous question about intentional walks -- I havn't seen any myself (but then again, I've never watched a little league game, nor did I play). However, I have some PMs saying that they HAVE seen intentional walks at that level -- but the person doesn't want to get drawn into the fight so is keeping his mouth shut. So I decided to do some searches to see about intentional walks. Here's some things I found: http://www.decatursports.com/drills/base/johns.htm ". And finally, we decided to intentionally walk the batter to set up a force play." http://experts.about.com/q/Baseball-Instru...tional-walk.htm "Intentional walks are one of the tools that a manager uses to try and prevent the other team from scoring runs.....Unless your coach is intentionally walking Jack in practice, you need not worry about his development. He is in a 9-10 division, after all." http://www.josephfkelly.com/right_back_whe...d_walk_spo.html "And I call the catcher over to the dugout to explain how he needs to position himself for an intentional walk." (NOTE: I'm not sure how old these players were, but it's little league). So as you can see, it DOES happen in Little League. Maybe not in your area, but across the country it does. CW 741339[/snapback] Reilly may or may not be exaggerating the kids inability to swing a bat. We had a Downs kid on the team I coached last year. The kids were young and it was tee ball but he needed a parent with him to bat. It's not exactly the same but you do see different things like that. When I played, there was a kid with a prosthetic arm and a hook. He batted, but needless to say was not the league's top hitter. I've seen kids in wheelchairs, etc. It does happen. Is it right? To me it's ok to have kids play, but when the league gets to the age/level where there are tryouts, the kid would have to legitimately make the team to play. I wouldn't doubt Reilly embelleshing other parts of the story too. I'm not a big fan of his to begin with, but I based my replies here on taking his report at face value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 Maybe some will say I'm cold and heartless, but I don't have a problem with what the coaches did. As the coach said, he played by the rules. The author tries to slant it like the coaches are bad guys and that the game is supposed to be about the kids. Well, what about the kids on the winning team? Is it fair to them to pitch to the strongest player on the opposing team and lose the game? No. Sorry, but real life isn't like a movie. This line sums it up perfectly: "I'm going to work on my batting," he told his dad. "Then maybe someday I'll be the one they walk." Bring others up to a higher level, don't bring everyone down to a lower level. 740281[/snapback] I'm glad I didn't have to go through 3 pages of posts to find someone who gets it. So if the kid didn't have cancer and was just the worst on the team, would it have been ok? The kid was in the lineup to show that he's no different from his peers as a result of the disease. And that's exactly how the winning coach treated him; as just another player who you strategize against. As the kid's own comment shows, he's a better person for standing up to the situation and coming out of it in a dignified manner -- regardless of the result of his AB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 Way to refute your own argument....this is just like PPP. 741314[/snapback] Maybe. Maybe... I always thought at about age 9/10... That is where the mother should learn to let go of the "apron strings"... And let the father take over. "Picking" on the this batter (if you want to call it that) just may happen to be one life's hard learned lessons (not to say that the kid has been through enough already with the cancer)... You might not see any "honor" in what the coach for the other team did... Yet, the "honor" in treating the weakest just like any other member of the team is invaluable for that individual. Just IMO, of course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 I'm glad I didn't have to go through 3 pages of posts to find someone who gets it. So if the kid didn't have cancer and was just the worst on the team, would it have been ok? The kid was in the lineup to show that he's no different from his peers as a result of the disease. And that's exactly how the winning coach treated him; as just another player who you strategize against. As the kid's own comment shows, he's a better person for standing up to the situation and coming out of it in a dignified manner -- regardless of the result of his AB. 741440[/snapback] EXACTLY!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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