Preference for Good QB brain or Good QB Athletics

[Pyrite Gal]

I think many posters are misunderstanding what it will take to run our offense well if what Fairchild has designed is an offense which credibly can be called Rams East.

 

We'll see a little when the team runs the vanilla O in pre-season and we will see for sure when the regular season starts.

 

However, I think that though we will have a pass happy offense which we hope will follow in the footsteps of a Rams offense dubbed the Greatest Show on Earth, that for this offense to be successful, it will not require the QB to demonstrate great escapability and hurl long bombs for completions 40 yards down the field.

 

Instead, I think that our QB will run the offense most productively when he makes good reads that allow him to figure out which reciever has gotten a cushion in his coverage because of his speed, or which Bills receiver is best able to pick on seams left in a zone coverage that our speed forces the D into.

 

In fact, our O will be successful and working well if the QB is able to read that it us unlikely that a WRwill get quick separation or much room because of double coverage, and he is able to make a short pass on a checkdown to WM flosting out of the backfield or the TE is left free on a short route because the D feels he is blocking and our QB sees this and takes what he is givn for a substantial 5 yard gain or even more if the reciever makes the first guy miss and gets free to pick up great RAC yardage.

 

I think JP will actually be the best of our QBs and so far it is great to see him making completions as completions are better than incompletions even if they are occuring due to improvisations and chemistry rather than running the scheme (I do not know which is the case and I doubt any observersreally know for sure because none of us outsiders know what the scheme is yet).

 

However, this first game will begin to tell us alot as we are facing enemy forces whom the QB does not know ahead of time how they are supposed to react.

 

JP is outplaying KH for sure, but JP still has to demonstrate that he has learned enough to slow the game down so that he makes good reads against Ds he has never seen before. It was unclear last time he played enemy forces whether he had mastered this.

 

JP also needs to demonstrate that he has developed beyond the great skill set he demonstrated in college where he showed tremendous escapability running for his life behind the Tulane OL and a great ability to improvise for TDs with Tulane.

 

Rather than improvisation, the NFL game calls for cooridnation as the way to success. Particularly with an O which is likely to depend on the recievrs getting great initial separation due to their speed or because the D is forced to zone up on them, it the pass is not thrown within 3 seconds of the snap the play probably is not working and if the pass is not thrown within 5 seconds of the snap we are in deep trouble.

 

The hard thing for us is that if JP has not mastered these elements (I think he can though it is a tough thing to do) then it may both be true that KH is inadequate at the job because he simply has not shown the consistency to translate his 10 year vet reads into quality short completions AND that he will be the best chance our offense has at success if JP is depending more on his legs than his brain to make plays.

 

One of the great signs for us in the Panthers game will be if it can be shown that JP is reading Ds where our recuevers are likely covered by a zone and instead he dumps down as though he were KH's brother for a shorter gain to WM or the TE.

 

It may not be exciting as a QB running around escaping the rush and the firing it a mile downfield (though this would be great to see if the result is a TD but this only works occaisonally and is not a working strategy) but actually having the ability to make good reads and either hit the short pass for big RAC yardage or check it down is likely be far more productive from a QB

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Ryan Leaf: good athlete.

Peyton Manning: smart athlete.

 

'Nuff said.

[Drewgetz]

Ryan Leaf: good athlete.

Peyton Manning: smart athlete.

 

'Nuff said.

740061[/snapback]

 

 

Even better:

 

Dan Marino: Very Smart

Micheal Vick: Very athletic

 

Who would you pick??

[Pyrite Gal]

Ryan Leaf: good athlete.

Peyton Manning: smart athlete.

 

'Nuff said.

740061[/snapback]

 

I think the question for Bills fans right now is whether what we have is a situation of:

 

JP Losman: by far the better athlete

Holcomb: Overall insufficient as a QB but his 10 years experience makes him better at reads than the young Losman.

 

I think Losman is a better athlete than KH and eventually should be the better QB, but even though I think Holcomb is at best a back-up quality QB because he has never shown the consistency of performance and health to be a starter, I think Jauron and Marv may well opt for the player that gives them a better chance right here and right now than invest in dveloping Losman for the future.

 

I thik the plan is for the Bills braintrust to have enough speed at WR, a vet OL which though not good enough players to hold blocks for a long time is good enough for a QB who does good reads to either hit the speed reciever quick or checkdown before the sack.

 

I think the two additions that the Bills are counting upon this year is to turn WM into an athlete rather than just a rusher and get him to perform as a lesser version of Marshall Faulk and to get greater production as a checkdown receiver from the TE than the Rams got.

 

I think Losman will really need to step up this year and show he has already developed the ability to make good reads even as a youngster or instead the Bils are making plans about how to win with an inadequate starting QB.

[34-78-83]

It's not as black and white as

Losman = Athletic

Holcomb = Cerebral

 

 

It's more like:

 

Losman = more athletic, just as smart, but less experienced

Holcomb = less athletic, just as smart, more experienced.

[H2o]

According to this all JP needs is the experience without having to look over his shoulder and he will mature as a QB. I too agree that is true.

[MDH]

It's not this simple. Before you get into the athlete vs. the intelligent QB you have to make sure of one thing; that the intelligent QB can make all the necessary throws (which someone like Manning can definitely do).

 

If the intelligent QB can make ALL the throws I'd obviously prefer him over a guy with a great arm or with sprinters speed. However, I'll take Michael Vick over a guy that's smart but can't throw the 15 yard out. Having a guy at QB that can't use the entire field kills an offense.

[OCinBuffalo]

Even better:

 

Dan Marino: Very Smart

Micheal Vick: Very athletic

 

Who would you pick??

740065[/snapback]

That is clear but, there is a problem if you relate that thinking to us:

 

Dan Marino: Rocket arm and quick release, but concrete feet

Kelly Holcomb: Noodle arm and quick release(what the hell, I'll give it to him - it doesn't change my point), but concrete feet.

 

No amount of smarts replaces making every ball thrown past 15-20 yards into a "hail mary". The coaches and players have stated on mutiple occaisons that we will be consistently (thank God) throwing it deep this year so that we keep the defense honest, thereby opening room up for WM.

 

Also, once and for all: This is not going to be Rams East. We don't play in a dome. Every coach has said that, every player has said that. Therefore the premise of this topic is wrong. Continuing to base points as though we are trying to be Rams East doesn't work. I am not sure what the Bills are gonna look like this year on offense, but it will not be Rams East in November, December and January.

[5 Wide]

Ryan Leaf: good athlete.

Peyton Manning: smart athlete.

 

'Nuff said.

740061[/snapback]

 

Manning also has a cannon too....

 

I think this is such a double edged sword. The only way to accomplish the feat of being able to read the defense is to go through growing pains. However, simply being able to understand the offensive concepts, where the blitz is coming from, hot reads and your check downs is not enough. You still must possess the adequate athleticism to get the ball there on time. There is always the discussion as to what constitutes good arm strength. If you were to watch Holcomb warm up on the sideline, you would say to yourself he can zing it pretty well. However, if you were to watch Holcomb throw a 15 yard out, you would see a considerable arc on the ball as compared to Losman. There is such a short window that a receiver is open that both the timing and the arm strength must be in unison to properly run the play. MDH, you are dead on with your analysis. The issue is not black and white. Holcomb possesses the smarts to identify what is before him as he is a 10 year vet, but he cannot confidently get the ball into the tight areas or down the seam consistently enough to free up our short yardage attack.

[Sen. John Blutarsky]

the poll is flawed, we only got to choose from reads and evasiveness, how about ability to deliver a 20 yard out, or ability to hit the broad side of a barn.

 

Peyton Manning isn't terribly evasive but he makes good reads, but he can also deliver a decently long pass.

 

Brett Favre is pretty evasive but makes OK reads.

 

If I were choosing between 2 QBs whose attributes were otherwise equal I would choose reads but in the Bills situation (and in MOST situations) that isn't the case. This is a pretty loaded question that the Holcomb sycophants will point to as evidence that Holcomb should start based upon his supposedly superior ability to make the proper read (though I question how a 2 yard throw on 4th and 10 can EVER be the proper read)

[Pyrite Gal]

T

Also, once and for all: This is not going to be Rams East. We don't play in a dome. Every coach has said that, every player has said that. Therefore the premise of this topic is wrong. Continuing to base points as though we are trying to be Rams East doesn't work. I am not sure what the Bills are gonna look like this year on offense, but it will not be Rams East in November, December and January.

740107[/snapback]

 

What I take some folks mean by Rams east is that it is a version of an O which generally fits the Rams model:

 

1. Heavy reliance on the pass but the pass actually sets up significant use of the run. You have to be able to do both to be successful at either for the most part.

 

2. The reliance on the pass does mean significant use of the long pass but certainly not constant use of the long pass or that is your first option. I think the Rams O and the Bills will both make far greater ise of the shorter pass with RAC being the primary method you gain big yards. However, the consistant use of the long pass means that it will consistently be used as a change-up threat.

 

The key is not that the Bills will use the long pass a lot or even more than a few times a game, but that they may use it on any given play. I think the Bills can be productive with the QB only throwing over 20 yards 2 times in a game IF:

 

A. The speedy recievers run fly patterns and beat their coverage at least once per series. Even if the QB does not throw the ball deep, if the DB knows that the WR can burn him deep and this just might be one of the two plays where the QB hrows it deep then the DB better give a bunch of cushion all the time because this may just be one of the plays.

 

B. The QB and the WR successfully complete the deep pass early, Nothing suceeds like success and if there is a completion deep early then the short pass will be open all day. A good read will be when the QB feels the DB leaving less cushion because there are too many passes being completed to a WR who cuts off the route and then you go long and stretch the defense again.

 

C. The QB/WR realize that in certain coverages which are man to man and there is nobodt playing a deep cover or centerfielder role than even a rag arm QB can do deep by lofting the ball out to a yardage both he and the WR know but the DC does not. If the the DB has his hands full merely keeping up with WR and cannot backpedal to watch the flight of the ball but must turn and watch the receiver, then the speedy receiver can go a pass with little zip the rag arm has thrown while the DB at best is focusing on the speedy WR trying to read whether he will cut off the route or is about to catch the ball.

 

If you have speedy WRs, the read is good so you are going up against single coverage, and the WR has enough experience not to telegraph his catch (a skillset Price has, Reed should have, and Evans is developing and may have) then your QB need not have the Bledsoe bazooka arm to throw long.

 

3. Significant and good use of the checkdown dump off to the RB. I knoe that KH throwing a2 yard pass to Moulds on 4th and 7 drove many of us nuts, but one sign the QB is really running the system well will be if he dumps the ball off a lot.

 

The difference will be that rather than him doing this to a WR (Evans, Parrish, and Price better be exploiting the D downfield bigtime) we need to develop WM as a Marshall Faulk like tool who is the short dump off guy who then with his running talent and his powerul stiffarm turns these passes even if they are initially behind the LOS into significant gains. Recievers must run routes which get the first down with the pass and at worse a couple of steps on 4th down but the dump off will be a key sign this O is working.

 

4. The big thing I think anyone with a sense of reality means by the "East" in calling our O style Rams East is that it will be the basic Rams approach of short passes with RAC, and use of the RB in a run/pass balanced checkdown role, BUT it will be an east coast outdoor version.

 

Just as a high-flying often pass happy attack like the K-Gun could be devastating in Nov. and Dec. in Buffalo, I think a Rams East attack which uses the same basic approach as the Rams attack but alters it to fit however much pass catching ability WM shows, greater use of the TE as a checkdown which Fairchild will apparently do more than the Rams did. I feel very comfortable with us using this form of attack which I think is easily styled as Rams East.