Dick Jauron and the QB Situation

[Like A Mofo]

Ok, but lets say all you have is your HS diploma, and the new guy has an MBA. Sure you outperformed him, only because you've been working for the company much longer, and know what it takes to do a good, but not exceptional job. You are at your ceiling, while the newbie has all the credentials to someday advance to the top of the business chain. So why promote you when you have ZERO chance of going any higher?

739877[/snapback]

 

 

Valid point, but how do we know KH has ZERO chance of going any higher? Has he ever been given a chance for an entire season to prove his worth?

[IDBillzFan]

Also, I just don't believe that splitting reps in practice, especially with the installation of a new offense, is good for either QB.

739756[/snapback]

Do you honestly believe in your heart of hearts that a week or two of extra reps for one quarterback is going to make that big of a difference in the outcome of our season?

[Peter]

J.P. Losman reminds me a lot of Rob Johnson.

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If only JP were as accurate as Rob Johnson.

[I Forgot My Last Username]

Ok, but lets say all you have is your HS diploma, and the new guy has an MBA. Sure you outperformed him, only because you've been working for the company much longer, and know what it takes to do a good, but not exceptional job. You are at your ceiling, while the newbie has all the credentials to someday advance to the top of the business chain. So why promote you when you have ZERO chance of going any higher?

739877[/snapback]

 

Allright, now let's say you're an Englishman working at a Chinese company, and you have a M.Eng. degree, and you take a massive dump, and someone comes along and just gives you a hundred dollar bill. Does that make anyone happy? NO.

 

Then JP must start.

 

[true_blue_bill]

Two totally different animals. RJ teased us by having a few great games but couldn't stay healthy and when finally given the chance to be the undisputed signal caller he stunk it up (except for the game against the Chargers with a head to head battle aginst Fluite!) JP on the other hand hasn't been given a chance to be given a true evaluation. 8 games; compare his first few games to Eli Manning; JP is better in every category. Also take a look at Aikman, Elway, McNabb; and you will see that they stunk it up there first year or two and it took them a few years to get on track. While I don't want the Bills to go the Joey Harrington, Tim Couch, or Kyle Boller route and give JP forever to flop, I think he desrves at least a full season to show what he got. As a matter of fact there shouldn't even be a QB competition this year as we are a team with low expectations so unless the team is hitting on all cylinders and QB play is the only thing holding us back as JP is losing games by turning the ball over then he should be given the green light as he performed no worse than most young QBs who progress at the end of their 1st season. If you trade up to draft a QB, he should be given an opportunity. And I know all those TD haters will say it is his mistake but Levy inherited it and has to deal with it. It's not like we have another QB that has proven potential to lead this team for the next 3-4 years and would have to go through the same learning curve. And as far as KH goes, to be truthful, the only Holcomb supporters are basically JP haters as he was brought in to be nothing more than a backup and hasn't exactly lit it up when given the chance for this to be a real debate. At least RJ had to compete against Flutie fans!

739851[/snapback]

I really hope you are right. But those happy feet, that indecision and general ineffictiveness remind me of Rob. Looks like a carbon copy so far. Hopefully JP will grow and become what Rob couldn't

[Pyrite Gal]

Please forgive me if this topic has already been addressed, as this is my first topic created.

 

Am I the only one not in agreement in how Dick Jauron is handling the quarterback situation?  The way he has tap-danced around the issue, refusing to name a starter(I know it's only the first preseason game and apparently who starts is irrelevant), almost brings back memories of Mularkey and the way he would dance around issues and be vague with the media and everyone else.  "It may be seniority, or it may be reverse seniority."  I mean, what's the deal? 

 

Also, I just don't believe that splitting reps in practice, especially with the installation of a new offense, is good for either QB.  I am definitely a JP supporter, and I hope with every fiber of my being that he does win the starting job, but if DJ's plan is let Holcomb start, then dammit just let him get the majority of the reps. 

 

I think it's pretty much a safe bet to say that JP has outplayed Holcomb in camp from day one.  His passes are much more crisp, he looks much more poised in the pocket than last year, he throws a gorgeous deep ball, and his accuracy, while it may not be the same as Holcomb's(mostly because of all of Holcomb's checkdown throws) has definitely improved.    So why has Jauron not come out even once and praise JP in camp?  I don't think he's mentioned him individually even once. 

 

I say that to make this point.  As good as JP has looked in camp, imagine if he were getting the lion's share of the reps.  I think Jauron's approach to this QB situation is just plain wrong. 

 

Please someone shed some light on this for me....

 

GO BILLS!!!

739756[/snapback]

 

No forgiveness needed and welcome aboard to going beyond lurking!

 

That being said, I of course disagree with some of your points and will go into them with stultyfying detail.

 

. The installation of a new system is exactly when you want to share snaps between all subs you think may have to play.

 

In the NFL, the chances that a starter is going to do all 16 starts is not certain at all and in fact it is quite likely that your best player is gonna miss some significant time (a quarter or so and certainly several series or so) at some point during the season.

 

That poit may come at a critical time in the game and you need to be sure that your sub has played in your offense against serious or real competition so you don't miss a beat when the sub comes in. In 2001, Bledsoe was the clear starter over Brady, but do you think that Bledsoe got all the serious reps and Brady got none? Nope and it was a good thing that Brady got the reps he did because thanks to a collapsed lung he was the starter.

 

I would agree with you that JP is the likely starter for the Bills this year, but particularly because we have a new system and JP struggled enough in the real world last year that simply giving him the job would be obvious folly it's crucial that we give our likely back-up KH some serious work in the new O so that and his peers develop the best chemistry they can and KH develops the best understanding and performance he can in the Fairchild O because if JP falters completely (which I do not think he will), needs a serious blow at a critical time and KH is forced to play (which I think is likely at some point from a slightly pulled JP muscle or if he gets his bell rung an sits as a precaution), or even suffers a serious injury that knocks him out for a few games as happened to him in practice his rookie year (which I hoped does not thappen but no one can control) I for one would much rather have KH get his first exposures to running the Fairchild O in the first couple of games of the pre-season rather than have ir be in the midst of lets say a must win game 9.

 

Even if you are sure that KH does not have the right stuff and is a back-up for us that you are not satisfied with, I think you still want to give him significant reps in pre-season and you are pleased to have it be in the context of him competing for a starting job eveve if you do not think he will win it.

 

In addition, to these broader reasons which make you do it this way, there are some specific reasons for each player why you let this be decided after you see them perform against opponents.

 

I think folks really misunderstand what the QB will likely have to do in order to make a Rams East offense work. This offense will be pass happy if it follows the Rams model. but being pass happy does not mean that we need a QB who can consistenly throw 40 yard bombs because he is gonna have to do that every series or even several times a series if the passes do not connect. The Rams and now the Bills have a bunch of quick recievers, but this is not because they are always gonna run fly patterns against slower DBs. The way it works based on what I read and saw a few times in St. L games is that these receivers and their patterns are designed to getquick separation from the DBs as they are forced to lay back or zone up on these speed WRs, or because the patterns call for crossing patterns which run picks on the DBs or slants which are quick openers.

 

What JP and KN will be asked to do is throw short passes of the 8 -10 yard variety rather than long bombs and then these speedy WRs will try to pick up another 20 yards or score a TD running after the catch.

 

Like any NFL QB, they will have to throw some long passes and make for a credible threat that the receiver may run a fly pattern otherwise all the receivers will see all day is press coverage and getting quick separation will be difficult. However, even though a rag arm NFL QB cannot throw the ball with any consistency all the time (and I doubt KH can successfully put up the long bomb more than a couple of times a game, all he needs to do is hit the bomb successfully a few times this season and even throw credible incompletions that a WR might run under and then the DBs are forced to give them room or the DC is forced to zone up and the WRs will have a much easier time getting separation.

 

JP has clearly been better thsn KH so far in practice. However, JP has not yet shown mastery of touch on short passes and he also needs to demonstrate that the game has slowed down enough for him that he stays calm in the pocket, dumps it off quickly over even throws it OB if there is nothing there and does not bail to early and try to make a play with his legs and escapability as though he was still at Tulane.

 

The odd thing is that we fans will know JP has made it as a QB when he consistently checks down in the Holcomb style or when he throws a few incompletions OB on plays where there was nothing available than instead he is running all over the place and avoiding sacks with his legs.

 

IMHO the key to being a productive QB in the O we apparently are going to run is making good reads with your head rather than making good plays with your arms and legs. Obviously the best outcome would be to have both but that is the test that JP is undergoing.

 

We'll see.

[bbills17]

Only in the eyes of players that wanted to win now.  Real team players, huh? 

 

So we mortgaged the future, part of which was this season, for what, 5 wins because a handful of players had their interests above the team's? 

 

Milloy, Fletcher, Vincent, Moulds. 

 

Maybe we can mortgage another few years for 4 or 5 wins again this season.  Wouldn't that be grand. 

 

And then the best part of it is we can talk about doing the same exact thing all over again next season.  Maybe we can even sign some more vets that don't care about future seasons but only that one. 

 

And we wonder why this team isn't going anywhere. 

 

When the team's leader grow some, then maybe we will.  As long as they allow the vets to run the team and define it's goals, you'd better get used to this annual exercise.

739773[/snapback]

 

The thinking that every QB needs to learn on the field in a 'trial by fire' is wrong. JP can learn on the bench, and then step in and play at a high level if/when he is ready. Bulger, Pennington, Hassellbeck, Brady, etc all learned on the bench and turned out just fine.

[AJ1]

The thinking that every QB needs to learn on the field in a 'trial by fire' is wrong. JP can learn on the bench, and then step in and play at a high level if/when he is ready. Bulger, Pennington, Hassellbeck, Brady, etc all learned on the bench and turned out just fine.

740017[/snapback]

[/quote/]

 

JP's particular weakness has been making the right decision quickly. No one corrects that by riding the pine and observing.

[34-78-83]

No forgiveness needed and welcome aboard to going beyond lurking!

 

That being said, I of course disagree with some of your points and will go into them with stultyfying detail.

 

. The installation of a new system is exactly when you want to share snaps between all subs you think may have to play.

 

In the NFL, the chances that a starter is going to do all 16 starts is not certain at all and in fact it is quite likely that your best player is gonna miss some significant time (a quarter or so and certainly several series or so) at some point during the season.

 

That poit may come at a critical time in the game and you need to be sure that your sub has played in your offense against serious or real competition so you don't miss a beat when the sub comes in.  In 2001, Bledsoe was the clear starter over Brady, but do you think that Bledsoe got all the serious reps and Brady got none?  Nope and it was a good thing that Brady got the reps he did because thanks to a collapsed lung he was the starter.

 

I would agree with you that JP is the likely starter for the Bills this year, but particularly because we have a new system and JP struggled enough in the real world last year that simply giving him the job would be obvious folly it's crucial that we give our likely back-up KH some serious work in the new O so that and his peers develop the best chemistry they can and KH develops the best understanding and performance he can in the Fairchild O because if JP falters completely (which I do not think he will), needs a serious blow at a critical time and KH is forced to play (which I think is likely at some point from a slightly pulled JP muscle or if he gets his bell rung an sits as a precaution), or even suffers a serious injury that knocks him out for a few games as happened to him in practice his rookie year (which I hoped does not thappen but no one can control) I for one would much rather have KH get his first exposures to running the Fairchild O in the first couple of games of the pre-season rather than have ir be in the midst of lets say a must win game 9.

 

Even if you are sure that KH does not have the right stuff and is a back-up for us that you are not satisfied with, I think you still want to give him significant reps in pre-season and you are pleased to have it be in the context of him competing for a starting job eveve if you do not think he will win it.

 

In addition, to these broader reasons which make you do it this way, there are some specific reasons for each player why you let this be decided after you see them perform against opponents.

 

I think folks really misunderstand what the QB will likely have to do in order to make a Rams East offense work.  This offense will be pass happy if it follows the Rams model. but being pass happy does not mean that we need a QB who can consistenly throw 40 yard bombs because he is gonna have to do that every series or even several times a series if the passes do not connect.  The Rams and now the Bills have a bunch of quick recievers, but this is not because they are always gonna run fly patterns against slower DBs.  The way it works based on what I read and saw a few times in St. L games is that these receivers and their patterns are designed to getquick separation from the DBs as they are forced to lay back or zone up on these speed WRs, or because the patterns call for crossing patterns which run picks on the DBs or slants which are quick openers.

 

What JP and KN will be asked to do is throw short passes of the 8 -10 yard variety rather than long bombs and then these speedy WRs will try to pick up another 20 yards or score a TD running after the catch.

 

Like any NFL QB, they will have to throw some long passes and make for a credible threat that the receiver may run a fly pattern otherwise all the receivers will see all day is press coverage and getting quick separation will be difficult.  However, even though a rag arm NFL QB cannot throw the ball with any consistency all the time (and I doubt KH can successfully put up the long bomb more than a couple of times a game, all he needs to do is hit the bomb successfully a few times this season and even  throw credible incompletions that a WR might run under and then the DBs are forced to give them room or the DC is forced to zone up and the WRs will have a much easier time getting separation.

 

JP has clearly been better thsn KH so far in practice.  However, JP has not yet shown mastery of touch on short passes and he also needs to demonstrate that the game has slowed down enough for him that he stays calm in the pocket, dumps it off quickly over even throws it OB if there is nothing there and does not bail to early and try to make a play with his legs and escapability as though he was still at Tulane.

 

The odd thing is that we fans will know JP has made it as a QB when he consistently checks down in the Holcomb style or when he throws a few incompletions OB on plays where there was nothing available than instead he is running all over the place and avoiding sacks with his legs.

 

IMHO the key to being a productive QB in the O we apparently are going to run is making good reads with your head rather than making good plays with your arms and legs.  Obviously the best outcome would be to have both but that is the test that JP is undergoing.

 

We'll see.

740012[/snapback]

 

How many times can you talk about this before you respond to my rebuttal in one of the 5 other threads about this?

[smuvtalker]

Do you honestly believe in your heart of hearts that a week or two of extra reps for one quarterback is going to make that big of a difference in the outcome of our season?

739906[/snapback]

 

I do think that getting the extra reps in practice could only help our starting QB, whoever it turns out to be, but Pyrite Gal did make a very valid point in stating that is important for BOTH QBs to get reps, as nowadays, most do not start a full season....

 

Very valid points to all of you...

[Pyrite Gal]

How many times can you talk about this before you respond to my rebuttal in one of the 5 other threads about this? 

740030[/snapback]

 

I hate to admit I did not notice your response but now I will look for it.

[34-78-83]

I hate to admit I did not notice your response but now I will look for it.

740058[/snapback]

 

Oh carry on then

[djh]

from a reliable source..... When Levy took over, JP was on the trading block. Jauron came in & convinced Levy to take another look at J.P. Jauron was impressed with J.P's arm & physical skills.

 

The competition is good for everyone....the team, the coach & for J.P.

[Ramius]

from a reliable source.....  When Levy took over, JP was on the trading block.  Jauron came in & convinced Levy to take another look at J.P.  Jauron was impressed with J.P's arm & physical skills.

 

The competition is good for everyone....the team, the coach & for J.P.

740091[/snapback]

 

was your source "deep within"? Did your source at least give the courtesy of a reacharound while it was "deep within"?

[smuvtalker]

was your source "deep within"? Did your source at least give the courtesy of a reacharound while it was "deep within"?

740109[/snapback]

[Mickey]

Only in the eyes of players that wanted to win now.  Real team players, huh? 

 

So we mortgaged the future, part of which was this season, for what, 5 wins because a handful of players had their interests above the team's? 

 

Milloy, Fletcher, Vincent, Moulds. 

 

Maybe we can mortgage another few years for 4 or 5 wins again this season.  Wouldn't that be grand. 

 

And then the best part of it is we can talk about doing the same exact thing all over again next season.  Maybe we can even sign some more vets that don't care about future seasons but only that one. 

 

And we wonder why this team isn't going anywhere. 

 

When the team's leader grow some, then maybe we will.  As long as they allow the vets to run the team and define it's goals, you'd better get used to this annual exercise.

739773[/snapback]

 

You don't think they should try to win this year?

 

Maybe we should bench Clements because, after all, Youboty is never going to get better unless he plays and he is definitely part of the future of the secondary while Nate, due to his contract, is not.

 

I would also bench Gandy and start Pennington or Butler. That is the only way those guys are going to learn how to play. This foolish, selfish obsession with winning is retarding the development of our future lineman.

 

I think we should definitely have Lee Evans sit it out for the year. We already know what he can do and since we have already thrown in the towel on making the playoffs this year, why risk injury to one of our best players? Instead, we should rest him for a year and give his playing time to Roscoe, Nance, Wilson and the rest. The only way they can learn is to start every game in a 16 game season. Otherwise, they will never develop and we will never know if they can hack it or if we should be drafting new receivers next year.

 

No way those idiot coaches should be starting Willis when we still haven't seen Gates play. How will Gates ever learn if he never plays in a real game? Why risk injury to Willis in a season the fans have already thrown away as an extension of the preseason all to get JP some reps.

[true_blue_bill]

from a reliable source.....  When Levy took over, JP was on the trading block.  Jauron came in & convinced Levy to take another look at J.P.  Jauron was impressed with J.P's arm & physical skills.

 

The competition is good for everyone....the team, the coach & for J.P.

740091[/snapback]

Well I don't know who your source is, but my source, who is really close to someone who has relatively close ties to a man who knows a guy related to the brother of a.............