RuntheDamnBall Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Old thinking: Jews are Christ-killers New Thinking: The Jewish state is intrinsically linked to the return of Jesus! 739039[/snapback] Actually, both statements are true. 739158[/snapback] Yikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 That's a simplistic ovesrsimplification. Your theory rests on the supposition that if Israel doesn't fight back, things will be better than if it does. (More later, I'm hungry) 739138[/snapback] Beat me to it. That was the point of my post. They can't win for losing. if they allow hizbollah to pull the shiat they've been pulling unchallenged, then they come off as vulnerable. If they blast Lebanon and hizbollah to kingdom come, they come off as an evil imperialist aggressor. It's not their fault. It's the fault of the Europeans and Arab states supporting a policy of "restrain Israel, but tolerate terrorism". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Beat me to it. That was the point of my post. They can't win for losing. if they allow hizbollah to pull the shiat they've been pulling unchallenged, then they come off as vulnerable. If they blast Lebanon and hizbollah to kingdom come, they come off as an evil imperialist aggressor. It's not their fault. It's the fault of the Europeans and Arab states supporting a policy of "restrain Israel, but tolerate terrorism". 739213[/snapback] Well the US certainly doesn't win here. The US has clearly sided with Israel as this war has created hundreds of thousands of refugees, waged total war on infrastructure, and has killed uncounted civillians because of two kidnapped soldiers. Israel certainly has motives for violence. But how on earth is there an upside for the US in all this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 9, 2006 Author Share Posted August 9, 2006 Well the US certainly doesn't win here. The US has clearly sided with Israel as this war has created hundreds of thousands of refugees, waged total war on infrastructure, and has killed uncounted civillians because of two kidnapped soldiers. Israel certainly has motives for violence. But how on earth is there an upside for the US in all this? 739257[/snapback] Or Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Or Israel. 739264[/snapback] And Lebanon makes three. Syria recovers a client state that was slipping out of its axis and the Iranians have opportunity time to do whatever they want as diplomacy shifts away from their nuclear ambitions as the world tries to sort out a hot war. Its !@#$ing great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 And Lebanon makes three. Syria recovers a client state that was slipping out of its axis and the Iranians have opportunity time to do whatever they want as diplomacy shifts away from their nuclear ambitions as the world tries to sort out a hot war. Its !@#$ing great. 739268[/snapback] So this is why Vizzini once said: "Never get involved in a land war in Asia." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 9, 2006 Author Share Posted August 9, 2006 And Lebanon makes three. Syria recovers a client state that was slipping out of its axis and the Iranians have opportunity time to do whatever they want as diplomacy shifts away from their nuclear ambitions as the world tries to sort out a hot war. Its !@#$ing great. 739268[/snapback] Hence my claim this was the wrong strategy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Hence my claim this was the wrong strategy. 739275[/snapback] It was by far the best of a whole set of terrible options, IMO. It's very easy to second-guess this. But what would you have done if you were Olmert? Talk to them? What would happen the next time they kidnap? Talk to them again? See a pattern here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Well the US certainly doesn't win here. The US has clearly sided with Israel as this war has created hundreds of thousands of refugees, waged total war on infrastructure, and has killed uncounted civillians because of two kidnapped soldiers. Israel certainly has motives for violence. But how on earth is there an upside for the US in all this? 739257[/snapback] The US could turn it into an upside if, when peace is finally struck, the US sufficiently helps the Lebanese military drive Hez'bollah and SYria out of their !@#$ing government. Bush's strategy is right: 1.) Support Israel, but support peace more 2.) Once thats over, help Lebanon get control over their country, and !@#$ Hez'bollah up from the inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 No. I didn't say or mean that. I know they must do something. My theory is things will be better than if Irael doesn't do THIS, what it is doing right now. I really don't know what the right thing is. But again, this way seems to have little gain and huge sacrifice, ramifications, and loss of life and stature. If Hizbollah were just the worthless scumbags they have always been, I would say this is smart and it would be worth it. But since they now have the arms and rocketry of the two real scumbag nations Syria and Iran to supply them (and an endless supply IMO because again Iran and Syria are loving this), fighting them this way and trying to knock them out no longer works. Usually I am of the opinion that one must have answers, or at least a suggestion of alternative views. And I usually do. This time, I really don't. I am not close enough to it or know enough about it. There are times, however, when one can clearly say this is wrong and bad and backfiring, as long as you don't always just say "this is bad", "this is bad", "this is bad" and never have any alternatives. 739149[/snapback] And in the past, when IDF thought that Hezb was just being a prickly pissant, they would not have escalated this incident. But, coming on the heels of Hams' actions to days before, and increasing tough talk out of Iran, you cannot file it away as an ordinary border skirmish. This battle is beyond winning the PR wars, and I'm sure that many in Israel view this as the battle for the state's survival. In the face of the above, what choice does Israel have other than to fight back now? The talk out of Hezb, Hamas & Iran has been unequivocable - ultimate destruction of Israel. So while the world is apalled at the destruction of Lebanon, no one winces when a head of state openly calls for the destruction of another country. But let's take your suggestion to the next level. Israel exercises restraint and pulls back from Lebanon. What happens next? Does Hezb go back to making honey, or do they dig in even more, get more munitions and launch again in two years? While the current military action may be creating more Bin Ladens, there wasn't a dearth of bin Ladens before this military offensive, nor before the US invasion of Iraq. The eventual solution will certainly be diplomatic, but it can't come before Hezb is weakened. As to the position of how can this possibly help the US, the answer is simplistic again - it's far too easy for the world to be critical of the US, while it cleans up the world's problems. Let's say US sacrifices Israel, and Iran attacks. Do you for a moment think that Israel doesn't use its nukes in a dying gasp? What happens then? Or do you believe that the possibility of Israel getting attacked by Iran are slim if US drops its alliance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 And in the past, when IDF thought that Hezb was just being a prickly pissant, they would not have escalated this incident. But, coming on the heels of Hams' actions to days before, and increasing tough talk out of Iran, you cannot file it away as an ordinary border skirmish. This battle is beyond winning the PR wars, and I'm sure that many in Israel view this as the battle for the state's survival. In the face of the above, what choice does Israel have other than to fight back now? The talk out of Hezb, Hamas & Iran has been unequivocable - ultimate destruction of Israel. So while the world is apalled at the destruction of Lebanon, no one winces when a head of state openly calls for the destruction of another country. But let's take your suggestion to the next level. Israel exercises restraint and pulls back from Lebanon. What happens next? Does Hezb go back to making honey, or do they dig in even more, get more munitions and launch again in two years? While the current military action may be creating more Bin Ladens, there wasn't a dearth of bin Ladens before this military offensive, nor before the US invasion of Iraq. The eventual solution will certainly be diplomatic, but it can't come before Hezb is weakened. As to the position of how can this possibly help the US, the answer is simplistic again - it's far too easy for the world to be critical of the US, while it cleans up the world's problems. Let's say US sacrifices Israel, and Iran attacks. Do you for a moment think that Israel doesn't use its nukes in a dying gasp? What happens then? Or do you believe that the possibility of Israel getting attacked by Iran are slim if US drops its alliance? 739299[/snapback] Apaprently I fell asleep and woke up to a country where Israel can no longer be considered an ally. I have two opinions what the US can do with Israel: 1) We can back them fully and give them everything they need to take care of business, and take a PR hit. 2) or we can drop all support for them and also drop the so-called "influence" we have on them and allow them to do whatever they please. And then take a PR hit. No matter what we or Israel do, we're going to be hated. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 9, 2006 Author Share Posted August 9, 2006 And in the past, when IDF thought that Hezb was just being a prickly pissant, they would not have escalated this incident. But, coming on the heels of Hams' actions to days before, and increasing tough talk out of Iran, you cannot file it away as an ordinary border skirmish. This battle is beyond winning the PR wars, and I'm sure that many in Israel view this as the battle for the state's survival. In the face of the above, what choice does Israel have other than to fight back now? The talk out of Hezb, Hamas & Iran has been unequivocable - ultimate destruction of Israel. So while the world is apalled at the destruction of Lebanon, no one winces when a head of state openly calls for the destruction of another country. But let's take your suggestion to the next level. Israel exercises restraint and pulls back from Lebanon. What happens next? Does Hezb go back to making honey, or do they dig in even more, get more munitions and launch again in two years? While the current military action may be creating more Bin Ladens, there wasn't a dearth of bin Ladens before this military offensive, nor before the US invasion of Iraq. The eventual solution will certainly be diplomatic, but it can't come before Hezb is weakened. As to the position of how can this possibly help the US, the answer is simplistic again - it's far too easy for the world to be critical of the US, while it cleans up the world's problems. Let's say US sacrifices Israel, and Iran attacks. Do you for a moment think that Israel doesn't use its nukes in a dying gasp? What happens then? Or do you believe that the possibility of Israel getting attacked by Iran are slim if US drops its alliance? 739299[/snapback] The point is they're not killing enough of them. They're fighting against an endless supply of rockets. They are beating them back but will not be able to sustain it. Iran and Syria are jumping for joy. The entire world is against Israel and the US even more, if that was possible. They've successfully demolished and alienated a country that was possibly on their side despite its yellow cowardly enabling stance with Hizbollah. Nothing is right with this. And yes, they should have known this would happen to some degree. Because they did know Hizbollah was infiltrating the citizenry and would stop at no length to use them as human shields and fire from their backyards. They did know that the Lebanese government was cowardly and toothless. They did know from looking at Iraq what happens to formerly peaceful citizens who feel like foreigners could care less about killing them. They did know Syria and Iran were supplying them with rockets and would get away scott free by getting three or four separate sides (Hizbollah, Israel, Lebanon and the US) to do their dirty work for them. I don't expect them to just standby. No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Apaprently I fell asleep and woke up to a country where Israel can no longer be considered an ally. I have two opinions what the US can do with Israel: 1) We can back them fully and give them everything they need to take care of business, and take a PR hit. 2) or we can drop all support for them and also drop the so-called "influence" we have on them and allow them to do whatever they please. And then take a PR hit. No matter what we or Israel do, we're going to be hated. Period. 739313[/snapback] It doesn't have to be all or nothing. The US could make it's backing dependent on them withdrawing fully from all occupied territories and implementing all the UN resolutions they've ignored. If I remember rightly, Bush the 1st got them to suspend building settlements in the West Bank by threatening to withhold US loans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 I don't expect them to just standby. No. 739336[/snapback] Then please, tell us what you DO want them to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 9, 2006 Author Share Posted August 9, 2006 Then please, tell us what you DO want them to do. 739343[/snapback] I am not positive. Surely some force. Some bombing of strongholds. Surely some diplomacy. Surely some more clandestine and targeted attacks inside Lebanon. Surely some retaliation against Iran and Syria. Surely some more money, time and violence against the supply lines. Would that fix it? No. It would be better than where they're going though. I said it three !@#$ing times I am not positive what else to do. I do know however if your kid is using drugs, you have a huge problem. I don't know for sure how you stop him. I do know you DON'T give them more drugs. It's okay to say this is NOT the way to do it. It's the worse way to do it. Because you're giving him more, you're rewarding bad behavior, you're supplying him instead of denying him, the neighbors will think you're an !@#$, and it may kill him and you. That's what's going on here. How is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 I am not positive. Surely some force. Some bombing of strongholds. Surely some diplomacy. Surely some more clandestine and targeted attacks inside Lebanon. Surely some retaliation against Iran and Syria. Surely some more money, time and violence against the supply lines. Would that fix it? No. It would be better than where they're going though. I said it three !@#$ing times I am not positive what else to do. I do know however if your kid is using drugs, you have a huge problem. I don't know for sure how you stop him. I do know you DON'T give them more drugs. It's okay to say this is NOT the way to do it. It's the worse way to do it. Because you're giving him more, you're rewarding bad behavior, you're supplying him instead of denying him, the neighbors will think you're an !@#$, and it may kill him and you. That's what's going on here. How is that? 739354[/snapback] OK. Not great, but OK. Typical response from a Dem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMadCap Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Why would conservatives all across the country want to support these Christ-killers? Aren't these the same demented America haters that own Hollywood, and run the liberal media, commie socialists kibbutzing around communes, contaminating our childrens' minds at universities, and dominating that cesspool Hymietown? What gives? Let the crazy Arabs have at 'em. At least for awhile. 738691[/snapback] There are LOTS of jewish folken in the US, many in high positions of power. That's likley a large part of it. Thread hijack: For the record, the Jews did not kill Christ, the Romans killed Christ. The Jews said it was cool with them, but they actually couldn't even wipe thier own bums in Judea at that time without a mandate from the Counsulate. Just my opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 9, 2006 Author Share Posted August 9, 2006 There are LOTS of jewish folken in the US, many in high positions of power. That's likley a large part of it. Thread hijack: For the record, the Jews did not kill Christ, the Romans killed Christ. The Jews said it was cool with them, but they actually couldn't even wipe thier own bums in Judea at that time without a mandate from the Counsulate. Just my opinion... 739525[/snapback] Jesus Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyT Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 There are LOTS of jewish folken in the US, many in high positions of power. That's likley a large part of it. Thread hijack: For the record, the Jews did not kill Christ, the Romans killed Christ. The Jews said it was cool with them, but they actually couldn't even wipe thier own bums in Judea at that time without a mandate from the Counsulate. Just my opinion... 739525[/snapback] I heard it was the People's Front of Judea that killed Christ......or the Judean People's Front. Can't remember which. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Jesus Christ. 739538[/snapback] Where? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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