ROSCOE P. COE TRAIN Posted August 10, 2006 Author Posted August 10, 2006 Excellent post, Roscoe. You gotta love a guy who spews ridiculous, inane, -------------- --------------- Nice rack.
IDBillzFan Posted August 10, 2006 Posted August 10, 2006 Nice rack. 739963[/snapback] Finally something we can all agree on.
Ramius Posted August 10, 2006 Posted August 10, 2006 Finally something we can all agree on. 739968[/snapback] i think roscoe should keep his posts to less than 3 words. its the only chance he has of ever sounding intelligent.
Kelly the Dog Posted August 10, 2006 Posted August 10, 2006 i think roscoe should keep his posts to less than 3 words. its the only chance he has of ever sounding intelligent. 739980[/snapback] Dood has crapy grammer and cant evin spel his own name rite.
Ramius Posted August 10, 2006 Posted August 10, 2006 Dood has crapy grammer and cant evin spel his own name rite. 739983[/snapback] I dunno, i am still trying to figure out who the hell Spiks, whittner and clemens are. Did the bills sign roger clemens? is he competing for the QB spot? Btw, who is willie mcginnis? the old cardinals head coach, dave mcginnis?
Matt in KC Posted August 10, 2006 Posted August 10, 2006 Okay, Roscoe, I've avoided this thread so far since so many others have been critical of your posts. I too have some big issues with your original point. And my issue is not that you're saying the Bills are low on proven talent this year. I think we're lower than most years given the departure of several veterans and the injury to Spikes. What I have an issue with, however, is your reasoning, and statement in the first. sentence that the Bills are void of talent, which is so extreme it's absurd This is where you started: When we diagnose the above teams, we can see that they have loads more of talent than us, with the exception of San Fran. Talent is defined as pedigree, potential, ability, play, performance and pro bowl potential. You seem to be upset that others aren't playing along with this definition of talent you've created and don't want to be swayed to accept their more common-sense definition of talent. Let me try to understand the components of talent in your definition; pedigree Definition: lineage: the descendants of one individual; "his entire lineage has been warriors" line of descent of a purebred animal pedigree(a): having a list of ancestors as proof of being a purebred animal So, being brought up in a football family, or more likely coming from an established big school is what I assume you mean. These might be faint predictors of talent, or, in other words potential, but we actually have recent performance to look at for every player, admittedly at the college level for the rookies. Why try to infer talent when we can look at actual performance? potential This is hard to judge. The best predictor is past performance. ...or do you want to get into 40-times, Wonderlic etc.? ability In other words, their past performance, plus what you think they could have done (potential). play This is a good one. In other words past performance. I agree this is the best predictor of future performance, especially for the non-rookies. performance This is a good one too. In other words, past play. I agree this is the best predictor of future performance, especially for the non-rookies. pro bowl potential If you assume that the pro bowl selections are just, this equates to... performance? Well, we know that the selection process is one-third driven by the fans, so this is really performance mixed with popularity, which doesn't add much to the definition of talent, except that these players are more talented as entertainers. I can't help reducing this one more time. When I look at the above, talent seems to be determined by: Being close to people who have done well (pedigree), could do well (potential), have the skills to do well (ability), have done well (play), have done well (performance), and may be recognized as doing well, perhaps undeservedly so (pro bowl potential). So how did you assess if players did well in the NFL or college? By any measure, the following players stats stack up very well against their peers: Clements, Moorman, Whitner (your list, spelling corrected) plus: Fletcher (how can you possibly not count him!?), Spikes, Schobel and McGee Because of your emphasis on potential, I think we also have to mention Evans and Peters. While JP is full of potential and has shown flashes, I dont't think I'd include him on this list. So, if you want to judge our talent by counting the number of players over an odd, contrived threshold you're defining as talent, the Bills' number is somewhere between 7 and 9. And because of this "we look like the worst [team] around?" So, it doesn't matter the quality of the other players or our coaching? We all know we have a younger, less-proven team than we have recently. You will be hard pressed I think to find people that agree with your conclusion: A reasonable person would say the the worst teams in the NFL are: San Fran; Buffalo; Houston; Titans; Cleveland; Raiders; New Orleans; & Detroit When we diagnose the above teams, we can see that they have loads more of talent than us ...and when you look at the teams in the league and compare ours with them, we look like the worst around --- My parents just arrived for a visit, so I have to run...
1billsfan Posted August 10, 2006 Posted August 10, 2006 Last week, I posted that the Bills are void of talent. Guys/ ladies like 'Darin From Alaska' and other board luminaries, were enraged at the idea that I would put forth such a suggestion. But when you look at the teams in the league and compare ours with them, we look like the worst around IMHO. A reasonable person would say the the worst teams in the NFL are: San Fran; Buffalo; Houston; Titans; Cleveland; Raiders; New Orleans; & Detroit When we diagnose the above teams, we can see that they have loads more of talent than us, with the exception of San Fran. Talent is defined as pedigree, potential, ability, play, performance and pro bowl potential. We start with: San Fran: QB Smith; I see no other talent on this team that stands out. Buffalo: Clemens; Moorman; Whittner Houston: Carr; Dom Davis; Moulds; Andre Johnson; Donta Robinson Titans: 738660[/snapback] A reasonable person wouldn't forget to put the Jets in the "worst" talent list. So I guess that means you're not a reasonable person to enlighten us with where the Bills rank on the list. The Bills have been trashed by all of the so called NFL experts and you seem to have bought into what they were selling you. That's fine. But you'll soon see that the Bills do have enough talent to make a push for the now soft AFC East division title. Your argument that they are void of talent is laughable. They not only have talent but they have a bunch of young talent which is what teams in this league want the most. Hiring Mike Malarkey was TD's biggest mistake and he was the single biggest reason for the horrible 2005 season. Player attitude was the second biggest reason followed by player talent. Jaroun will make Malarkey look like a big cry baby and by far worst Bills coach ever when the season's over. The additions and subtractions of coaches and players this offseason made the Bills a much much better team.
ROSCOE P. COE TRAIN Posted August 10, 2006 Author Posted August 10, 2006 Okay, looks like we are back to talking football here. We were sidetracked by the same few rotten apples who appear like flys on **** everytime someone 'goes against the grain' on OUR site here. For years I have witnessed this same cyber lynch mob attack anyone who dares assert that the club is defective in any way. Over aggressive and rude, they launch personal attacks and barbs that are over-the-top. Thus, it took me literally a day to be able to respond to the reasonable bill's talent question here, and talk football with those of you that have a cool disposition and are not insecure or in need of playing class cyber clown with the others who have been performing such antic for years. Thus, now that I have shut-them up for a while, we can actually talk ball. Talent in the dictionary is defined as: marked innate ability & natural endowment or ability of a superior quality. I define talent in pro football as what a reasonable fan or scout would see it as. Thus, how does this player stand up against thier peer? Is this persons pedigree, blue chip background bonified? Was their college performance for sure translatable to a pro career? What is their speed/ size/ skills at the combine? Out of 10 top scouts, is this a sure hit? Do they have the chance to be overweight, soft or slow in game speed? DO they show flashes in NFL training camps of greatness or having skill better than the others? A player who objectively manifests these factors well, to me, should be considered a talent. A palyer who has had a chance to show these things, and has be so-so with them, should not be considered a real talent. The Bills have not won many games. We start with that realization. The have looked like children against the Pats -- the best team in the league over the past 5 yrs. Coaching has been fine. Not as good as some coaches maybe, but we can't blame the coach for the player all the way, can we? The only players on this club to have stood out are CLements and Evans. San Diego 3 yrs ago had a L. Tomlinson. That team sucked, he stood out, and put up incredible numbers. Cincy sucked 4 yrs ago. A little known player named Chad JOhnson stood up and made a name for himself by torching corners. A guy named Dominik Davis had almost 2,000 total yards twice now on a team that is pathetic (texans). Charles Woodson has made the pro bowl several times on a crap Raiders team. Arizona's Bolton has had almost 100 catches in each of his seasons with a new QB & coach each season. Duce McCallister has shredded defenses for years with a brutall line. Joe Horn has racked up fantastic numbers with a piss poor qb, coaching and no WR help on the other side. For two years now, Ed Reed and Ray Lewis have continued to play amazing for the Ravens who are depleted and had a rookie Kyle BOller who is no better than JP. Roy Willaims of the Lions has made some of the best catches in the sport the past two seasons and is double teamed ever down. Brian Urlacher of the Bears has single handedly been the defense for years and years. Braylan Edwards, last seaosn showed all the signs of being a great WR for years to come. Carson Palmer, two years ago was zipping balls all over the field on an average Cincy team. With all that said, our bills had shown little of the same. Clements has shown the ability to make great plays. He is our ONE (1) game changer in the past 10 seasons. That is why TD brought in the Miami guys -- to simply give the team some big play talent. Willis was the bomb in college. He can't get to the outside now. How many rushes over 30 yards does he have? Evans is a sure handed 5 yr college player. Is he a pro bowl type? Is he better than Santan Moss -- who is the 10th best WR in the league? JP was a late 1st roudner. His footwork adn pocket awareness dont sem sound. Can he buy that 1 oe 2 seconds of time to make a play that changes a game? Sam Whyche worked with him for a yr and a half. This season, he either moves around a little and makes plays, or he goes to the bench. But nothing has shown a swagger or talent lable on him whatsoever thus far. NOthing stands out on the guy. Jason Peters was a TE last season. He may be a fine switch player ala James 'Big Cat' Williams (Bears former DE moved to RT) -- but that is pathetic that he is our bell cow. Have you seen our line move any Def line off the ball in the past 10 years? HAve you seen Philly's OL? Watch them drive block gusy off the ball 5 yards -- then compare our guys. Their line is filled with pro bowlers and young stars. They drafted Shawn Andrews when we should have. He is a force. OUr line could jell, but Larry Felser did a study on the top Offensive lines and the need to get a coach with experience years ago. His article outlined the need for talent there and talked about coaches like the PAt's: Dante Scarnecchia ; Alex Gibbs, Mike Maser, Howard Mudd and others. We don't have one drafted starter on our line. What does that say to other defenses coming in to play us? early 1990s bills teams had an all drafted line. The TE Everett is a big time talent. But he got injured. He was junior to start. He is a kid. He can't start. Royal is a blocker cut from the Skins. JOsh Reed was an amazing college player. BUt he has shown little agaisnt pro corners. we know his top end game speed is slow. THe defense has a talent in Whitner. If you watched him at OSU, you could tell that a transition to the pro game would be easy. he is size, balance, leverage, angling, smarts, professioanlism and ability to be coached make him such. He played in a bog program and practiced against bog time WR and RB talents. We dont have enough gusy like him. We got to many depth - role type players. We wasted 2 2nd roudners on Kelsay and Denney who are situational pass rushers. Shoebel is a nice player, but he aint scaring any LTs in the AFC. JOnathan Ogden will toss him into the front row of any stadium he wishes. Fletcher is a talent. I retract me inital grade on the guy. He is a stopper and is sure in form. Crowell is a project. He never excited me much at UVA, and his brother was an idiot for Detroit, but he could flurish ala Marcus Washinton (Redskins). But he could also end up like Marcus PAtton. One you get the start in teh NFL, and you no longer come off the bench fresh -- you stand out and it is a lot harder (see Carlton Bailey). Clements is a talent. Guy can pick off 3 passes in a game. MCGee is okay. I dont see him shuting anyone down. He was servicable. But with 5 wins, did he realy do much to sto pthat side of the field from being worked over? Vincent is a joke. There you have it. That is that talent reviewed quickly. To distinquish, look at the Redskins offense and defense and compare.
FLFan Posted August 10, 2006 Posted August 10, 2006 You want to talk football? OK. First of all, the team with the most "talent" does not always, or even ususally, win. That is true in football and in most other sports. Did Pittsburgh have the most "talent" last year? They did not, and were predicted at the beginning of the year by many "experts" to be middle of the road. The Yankees have not won the WS since 2000 although they perenially have the biggest stars. Ditto the Detroit Red Wings and the like in hockey. Pure talent does not equate to wins - coaching, character, team chemistry, schedule, and luck all have at least as much to do with it. Thats why the Redskins are going nowhere this year, despite your contention they have many "talented" players. Although I do not agree with that premise, and despite good coaching, the team is full of thugs and low character individuals and will fold under pressure. Lets not forget the fragile 37 year old QB backed up by a second year player who has taken no snaps and Todd Collins. The great Bills teams of the 90's did not have more than 5 or 6 great "talents" in the vein you describe. In fact, I would venture to say that had you been asked to name the great talents on the Bills before they started winning consistently, you would have been hard pressed to come up with three. Kelly on offense was the only name player with unquestioned talent. On defense, Bennet and Smith were always considered great talents, although in Bruce's case, it took him several years to play well. Reed was a third round draft choice. Thurman a second rounder with major question marks. The O Line was full of low round draft choices and free agents, except for Fina. Kent Hull was a USFL refugee. What made that team great was the way they came together and played as a team. They had many very good football players, and some that in retrospect (once they established winning) were considered great players. Maybe people reacted to your post with such venom because your basic premise makes no sense. The fact is, NO ONE knows how good or bad the Bills will be this year, how good or bad a QB JP will be, or even who will be judged the real talents 3 to 5 years from now. The team that plays the best as a team wins. That takes talent, plus a whole lot more. I could not care less what the national pundits and critics and fantasy football gurus think. They are wrong 90% of the time. Personally, I think the Bills will be a whole lot better than last year, certainly better coched, and with better team chemistry now that the selfish, unleader like veterans such as Moulds, Adams, and Milloy are gone. We shall see, and that is what makes the game fun.
Ramius Posted August 10, 2006 Posted August 10, 2006 We were sidetracked by the same few rotten apples who appear like flys on **** In calling some of us FLIES, you are correct in your assumption that your posts are **** Thus, it took me literally a day to be able to respond Awww, did mommy ground you off the computer for not taking the garbage out? The Bills have not won many games. We start with that realization. yes, because the previous years’ record of a team is a direct indicator of how they will do the following year Coaching has been fine. Not as good as some coaches maybe, but we can't blame the coach for the player all the way, can we? What the hell games have you been watching where coaching isn’t the problem? I guess the players decided to run a double fake screen reverse flea flicker. I guess the players decided to not run out the clock against Miami. I guess we should blame the players for not making in game adjustment to our gameplan. Charles Woodson has made the pro bowl several times on a crap Raiders team. Again, what games were you watching? Charles Woodson has been injured the majority of the past few seasons. There was a REASON the raiders let him go. He’s all hype. Jason Peters was a TE last season Wow, I guess I must have dreamed his 9 starts at RT last season Braylan Edwards, last seaosn showed all the signs of being a great WR for years to come. The TE Everett is a big time talent. But he got injured. He was junior to start. He is a kid. He can't start. So let me get this straight. Edwards is a big time talent who shredded his knee, probably wont be back until October, but will be great for years to come. But Everett is a big time talent who shredded his knee, therefore he sucks and cant start? Way to contradict yourself Royal is a blocker cut from the Skins. Royal just happens to be catching a TON of balls during camp. Chris Brown reports on a daily basis how much he’s being incorporated into the passing game. Sorry to interrupt your rant with facts Crowell is a project. He never excited me much at UVA, and his brother was an idiot for Detroit, but he could flurish ala Marcus Washinton (Redskins). But he could also end up like Marcus PAtton. One you get the start in teh NFL, and you no longer come off the bench So now a players BROTHER determines their talent? How come marcus vick wasn’t drafted in the 1st round then? His brother is great! Also, I seem to remember Crowell starting 13 games last year, which implies that he WASN’T just coming off the bench, but again I must have been dreaming. Darn those stubborn facts. And ooooh, he didn’t excite you at UVA. That obviously means he’s going to suck at the NFL level. Hear that everyone? Roscoe p dumbass says crowell didn’t excite him in college. Crowell should retire now. MCGee is okay. I dont see him shuting anyone down. He was servicable. But with 5 wins, did he realy do much to sto pthat side of the field from being worked over? Yup, its mcgee’s fault that eh wasn’t all over the field on every single play. Its his own responsibility and no one else’s on defense. McGee has developed into a nice young corner, and will keep getting better. Hes a great #2 corner, and will be a good #1 corner within a year or so.
Rico Posted August 10, 2006 Posted August 10, 2006 Just Call Me: "Roscoedemus" 740115[/snapback] Great thread, keep reelin' 'em in!
Ramius Posted August 10, 2006 Posted August 10, 2006 BTW, who in sam hell are "Arizona's Bolton" and "Santan Moss"?
ROSCOE P. COE TRAIN Posted August 10, 2006 Author Posted August 10, 2006 BTW, who in sam hell are "Arizona's Bolton" and "Santan Moss"? 740183[/snapback] ---------------- ----------------- I liked you better when you had that little yellow rain hat on. Now you are a lizard of some sort and a little off your rocker, i see. Let me quess, your dozen or so cyber lynch mob buddies here at the site all IMed you to be the guy who attacks me and acts on their behalf, as they are "feed up" with me? I can see the IMing now: "Hi Ramius, please go after Roscoe, he is mean...go get him, are you up for Dungeons and Dragons later?" What. you are the wordsmith of the bunch? Are you the one with an MBA or some other advanced degree you got off the internet? Give it a rest. I thought we were done with the personal attacks and childish antics? I love you man. You got seven thousand posts and have always been a class act. Why act so mean? I am not your enemy. YOu are not impressing the rest of your buddies. I know, the whole gang is reading and giggling and you are going "show me" right? Naw, tehy jsut want to talk football and have a sober debate. This is a democracy. Chill out, be nice. It will keep you regular, it will allow the stress to not build up, it will make your days more rewarding. I can tell you have a nice aura about you and a friendly disposition. The probelm with your post, and this problem is often seen on these fan sites, is that you instantly respond with emotion. Most inferior thinkers do this. They lash out off the top off their head with out concentrating and focusing on context, substance and overall logic. I can see you no shirt on in the end zone, drunk, with your face painted yelling the same things you have asserted in your fluff posts here in this thread. My long widned post above sorts out my position on the club and gives a fair account of the talent. ALl you want to do is protect the player at any cost. Are you recently familair with the premise: rose colored glasses or home towner or bias? Braylon Edwards is the real deal. Everett is not at this point. How can you refute that?!?!?! Think out side the box. Charles Woodson has stood out as a lock down corner since his 1st yr. Injuries get all corners. When playing he is top shelf. Who would refute that?!?!?! Point is, he stand out. He is a talent. I said Crowell might be good. I said he is a starter now, and your love affair with Ed Kilgours reporting of him at training camp has nothing to do with reality. Ed Kilgour never played a second of organized sport and was stuffed in lockers in high school. Willis has not shown top end speed. Has he? He runs between the tackles. Great backs stand out even with poor blocking. Tomlinson is the best example of this. Other examples would be: Jamal Lewis 3 yrs ago; FAulk always stood out with the crap colts pre-mannng teams; I thought Ronnie Brown stood out with an average Miami team. Willis is good, I love the guy. BUt common, he may not be the answer. He has a cadevors legiment in his knee. Until he hits the second layer of a defense and takes one to the house, he is a 15-20 best back for me. Plus he dont catch & comes out on 3rd down. His balance and speed and cut back ability and vision is not better than any other back IMO. I'll take Rudi JOhnson over him anyday.
EndZoneCrew Posted August 10, 2006 Posted August 10, 2006 --------------------------------- I liked you better when you had that little yellow rain hat on. Now you are a lizard of some sort and a little off your rocker, i see. Let me quess, your dozen or so cyber lynch mob buddies here at the site all IMed you to be the guy who attacks me and acts on their behalf, as they are "feed up" with me? I can see the IMing now: "Hi Ramius, please go after Roscoe, he is mean...go get him, are you up for Dungeons and Dragons later?" What. you are the wordsmith of the bunch? Are you the one with an MBA or some other advanced degree you got off the internet? Give it a rest. I thought we were done with the personal attacks and childish antics? I love you man. You got seven thousand posts and have always been a class act. Why act so mean? I am not your enemy. YOu are not impressing the rest of your buddies. I know, the whole gang is reading and giggling and you are going "show me" right? Naw, tehy jsut want to talk football and have a sober debate. This is a democracy. Chill out, be nice. It will keep you regular, it will allow the stress to not build up, it will make your days more rewarding. I can tell you have a nice aura about you and a friendly disposition. The probelm with your post, and this problem is often seen on these fan sites, is that you instantly respond with emotion. Most inferior thinkers do this. They lash out off the top off their head with out concentrating and focusing on context, substance and overall logic. I can see you no shirt on in the end zone, drunk, with your face painted yelling the same things you have asserted in your fluff posts here in this thread. My long widned post above sorts out my position on the club and gives a fair account of the talent. ALl you want to do is protect the player at any cost. Are you recently familair with the premise: rose colored glasses or home towner or bias? Braylon Edwards is the real deal. Everett is not at this point. How can you refute that?!?!?! Think out side the box. Charles Woodson has stood out as a lock down corner since his 1st yr. Injuries get all corners. When playing he is top shelf. Who would refute that?!?!?! Point is, he stand out. He is a talent. I said Crowell might be good. I said he is a starter now, and your love affair with Ed Kilgours reporting of him at training camp has nothing to do with reality. Ed Kilgour never played a second of organized sport and was stuffed in lockers in high school. Willis has not shown top end speed. Has he? He runs between the tackles. Great backs stand out even with poor blocking. Tomlinson is the best example of this. Other examples would be: Jamal Lewis 3 yrs ago; FAulk always stood out with the crap colts pre-mannng teams; I thought Ronnie Brown stood out with an average Miami team. Willis is good, I love the guy. BUt common, he may not be the answer. He has a cadevors legiment in his knee. Until he hits the second layer of a defense and takes one to the house, he is a 15-20 best back for me. Plus he dont catch & comes out on 3rd down. His balance and speed and cut back ability and vision is not better than any other back IMO. I'll take Rudi JOhnson over him anyday. 740219[/snapback] How many times are you going to respond to your own thread? Just curious.
IDBillzFan Posted August 10, 2006 Posted August 10, 2006 How many times are you going to respond to your own thread? Just curious. 740271[/snapback] Just until Ed comes back.
ROSCOE P. COE TRAIN Posted August 10, 2006 Author Posted August 10, 2006 How many times are you going to respond to your own thread? Just curious. 740271[/snapback] ------------ 101 times. How many am I at?
Swift Sylvan Posted August 10, 2006 Posted August 10, 2006 Someone actually agrees with this window licker? 739863[/snapback] No as a matter of fact I think the bills have more talent than, dare I say it, the average team ?
Dibs Posted August 11, 2006 Posted August 11, 2006 Okay, looks like we are back to talking football here. We were sidetracked by the same few rotten apples who appear like flys on **** everytime someone 'goes against the grain' on OUR site here. 740115[/snapback] It's not a matter of going against the grain. Going against the grain is like arguing we are not deep at WR....most here disagree but the counter argument is quite legitimate. What you are doing here is just ridiculous(by definition....deserving of ridicule). You give a definition of 'talent' & then simply ignore your own definition. Lee Evans is an indisputable example. Run him through your definitions compared to Whitner & see what you get. Did you even have a Bills roster in front of you when you posted...let alone the other teams rosters? Did you do any research what so ever? Were you drunk, or in some other way under the influence? You obviously put no thought or effort into your argument & are now dogmatically sticking to what you wrote regardless of how foolish you look by doing it. Had you done a little research(or even had a roster with you) there is no way you would have posted what you did(unless you really are an idiot) I have an idea...next time you want to post something contentious & you do not want to go to any effort to back up what your view is....type it out first in Word......print it off on A4 paper......roll it into a tube......and shove it right up your clacker.
ROSCOE P. COE TRAIN Posted August 11, 2006 Author Posted August 11, 2006 It's not a matter of going against the grain. Going against the grain is like arguing we are not deep at WR....most here disagree but the counter argument is quite legitimate. ----------------------- ------------------------ What is in the water around here? This is like shooting fish in a barrel. Are you the next kid wordsmith gunslinger to come along and hurl barbs and insults? Where are the guys who have 15K, 20k, and 24 k posts? I **** bigger than you. My post is completly reasonable. I compared players and broek each player down without being bias. GO read them above, they are all well thought our and talk circles around what you purport to know. NOw go get your shinebox...
ROSCOE P. COE TRAIN Posted August 11, 2006 Author Posted August 11, 2006 No Patriots player appeared in the February 2001 Pro Bowl. As of that September, Seymour (a rookie) and Vinatieri had yet to play in one. UDFA Andruzzi still hasn't. And you didn't really compare #13 overall pick and two-time Pro Bowler Spikes to Mark Pike in a later post, did you? Tell me I didn't read that. I realize the last names SOUND similar, but still... 739709[/snapback] =+++++++++++++++++ Lady, it tOok me a second to respond to this, as I have the "stadium wall cyber lynch mob" jumping all over my back like lice at every turn. Super Bowl XXXVI -- New England 20, St. Louis 17 -- February 3, 2002 Pats All Pros 2002 = law/ izzo/ seymore/ milloy. And I would say that mcginest, troy brown (97 catches), vinatieri are talents by any standard.
Recommended Posts