Holcomb gives us the best chance to win.

[Mickey]

Sorry,not buying it.

 

I watched KH closely at practice this year and the his long ball is either innaccurate or a floater.  He's capable of completing a long pass only when a defender falls down.  KH qbing will get you 8 in the box all day long.

738839[/snapback]

Drew had no problem with throwing the deep ball but he still faced "8 in the box". The reason, I surmise, had nothing to do with the QB's arm strength and everything to do with our offensive line. With a poor line, you can play 8 in the box and send a bunch of them. They will get to the QB way before the WR's get deep enough to make a first down catch. 8 in the box isn't just a defense to stuff the run, against a bad line, it is a great defense against the pass as well. 8 in the box stops the runa and takes away the dump offs. All it leaves are deeper routes which never happen for us because the QB doesn't have the time for those routes to develop.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Drew had no problem with throwing the deep ball but he still faced "8 in the box".  The reason, I surmise, had nothing to do with the QB's arm strength and everything to do with our offensive line.  With a poor line, you can play 8 in the box and send a bunch of them.  They will get to the QB way before the WR's get deep enough to make a first down catch.  8 in the box isn't just a defense to stuff the run, against a bad line, it is a great defense against the pass as well.  8 in the box stops the runa and takes away the dump offs.  All it leaves are deeper routes which never happen for us because the QB doesn't have the time for those routes to develop.

739429[/snapback]

 

Mark it down:

 

For once, Mickey's right about something. It's a Christmas miracle come early.

[Kelly the Dog]

Drew had no problem with throwing the deep ball but he still faced "8 in the box".  The reason, I surmise, had nothing to do with the QB's arm strength and everything to do with our offensive line.  With a poor line, you can play 8 in the box and send a bunch of them.  They will get to the QB way before the WR's get deep enough to make a first down catch.  8 in the box isn't just a defense to stuff the run, against a bad line, it is a great defense against the pass as well.  8 in the box stops the runa and takes away the dump offs.  All it leaves are deeper routes which never happen for us because the QB doesn't have the time for those routes to develop.

739429[/snapback]

You can if the QB can run. They did that against Drew because they knew he was statuesque. And that he had a history of being flustered when rushed up the middle. They also did that mostly against Drew when Moulds was hurt, a lot more in 2003 than 2002, because no Bills receiver could get open.

[Risin]

Drew had no problem with throwing the deep ball but he still faced "8 in the box".  The reason, I surmise, had nothing to do with the QB's arm strength and everything to do with our offensive line.  With a poor line, you can play 8 in the box and send a bunch of them.  They will get to the QB way before the WR's get deep enough to make a first down catch.  8 in the box isn't just a defense to stuff the run, against a bad line, it is a great defense against the pass as well.  8 in the box stops the runa and takes away the dump offs.  All it leaves are deeper routes which never happen for us because the QB doesn't have the time for those routes to develop.

739429[/snapback]

 

 

Wow!

 

No offense, but Drew didn't see too much 8 in the box.

 

In fact, the way to neutralize Bledsoe was to drop everyone deep, and make him be patient. (Along with pushing the pocket into his face)

 

Belichick even wrote about it in his book, basically acknowledging Drew wasn't disciplined enough to dink-and-dunk.

 

Giving Drew Bledsoe man-to-man coverage with one of his wide receivers was a death wish to defenses. Just look at his first 8-10 games here, once teams stopped trying to stack the box, and let the safeties help the cornerbacks, Drew started to fizzle.

[Mickey]

Common wisdom on the wall isn't reality. Common wisdom on the wall is an oxy-moron. The reality was the Bills brass didnt adhere to that philosophy ever. They came out throwing game one, series one, play one. They never put Losman in a position of caretaker. The defense couldn't stop anyone starting in the first quarter of the second game and continued throughout the season. The line couldnt block or stay onsides for McGahee. By game four the season was over because Spikes was hurt, Milloy and Vincent were hurt, Mike Williams and Villarial were hurt, and we couldnt run or stop the run, pass or stop the pass. That is when it should have been determined that Losman needed the experience but Mularkey let the inmates run the asylum.

738801[/snapback]

I can't agree that 4 games into the season it was time to hang it up, give it up and go into an extended preseason mode for the younguns. Twelve games were left.

 

Besides, JP was hurt against New England which is why Holcomb started the last three weeks. Really, I am not sure I buy the notion that the coaches didn't give JP a fair shake. They started him the first 4 games despite terrible performances on his part in losing three straight. The coaches, to their credit I think, were not prepared to throw away the season give how close we were to the playoffs the year before. Thus, they did what just about any coach would have done, they tried something different and gave KH a shot. Then we won two games in a row.

I can't imagine there was anyone in their right mind who was shouting to put JP back in during the week before the Oakland game despite the two straight wins or was declaring the season to be over with our record at 3-3.

 

Although he lost at Oakland, he played very well against NE on the road, nearly pulling off the upset of the season. I can see where the coaches decided to give him one more shot against KC. From there, JP was teh starter again until he got hurt. I can hardly fault the coaches for ruining his development by not playing him hurt in the last three meangless games. Quite the contrary, why put the franchise QB behind a lousy offensive line whose motivation is shot on a team marking the days to the offseason?

 

I'm all for JP being the starter this year and my opinion of the coaches last year is just about as bad as yours. By the same token I don't buy the notion that poor JP's developement was ruined because he got pulled for playing poorly on a team that was still trying to make the playoffs.

 

I am looking forward to the new JP.

[Kelly the Dog]

I can't agree that 4 games into the season it was time to hang it up, give it up and go into an extended preseason mode for the younguns.  Twelve games were left. 

 

Besides, JP was hurt against New England which is why Holcomb started the last three weeks.  Really, I am not sure I buy the notion that the coaches didn't give JP a fair shake.  They started him the first 4 games despite terrible performances on his part in losing three straight.  The coaches, to their credit I think, were not prepared to throw away the season give how close we were to the playoffs the year before.  Thus, they did what just about any coach would have done, they tried something different and gave KH a shot.  Then we won two games in a row.

I can't imagine there was anyone in their right mind who was shouting to put JP back in during the week before the Oakland game despite the two straight wins or was declaring the season to be over with our record at 3-3.

 

Although he lost at Oakland, he played very well against NE on the road, nearly pulling off the upset of the season.  I can see where the coaches decided to give him one more shot against KC.  From there, JP was teh starter again until he got hurt.  I can hardly fault the coaches for ruining his development by not playing him hurt in the last three meangless games.  Quite the contrary, why put the franchise QB behind a lousy offensive line whose motivation is shot on a team marking the days to the offseason? 

 

I'm all for JP being the starter this year and my opinion of the coaches last year is just about as bad as yours.  By the same token I don't buy the notion that poor JP's developement was ruined because he got pulled for playing poorly on a team that was still trying to make the playoffs. 

 

I am looking forward to the new JP.

739447[/snapback]

The season wasn't shot after four games because of the poor quarterback play. Like I said, the season was shot after four games because Spikes, Vincent, Milloy, Williams and Villarial were hurt. That, combined with the loss of Pat Williams, made it clear to everyone the Bills weren't going to make the playoffs.

 

There were also alot of fans who thought Losman should not be benched after the first four games, and a lot of fans, including myself, who thought he would have won the home games against Miami and the Jets that Holcomb was handed. Not to mention that he was pulled in te second game and the third game I believe. The seocnd game of his career after he was pretty decent in his first. That's just bad handling of a QB. The Jets and Fins games were a completely different ball game so to speak than Tampa Bay in the heat, a playoff caliber team in the Falcons, and even New Orleans, which the Bills could easily have won. Yes, JP was playing lousy, but he didn't have to play all that well at home against the Dolphins or Jets. I firmly believe the Bills would have won both of those games with Losman.

 

The last two games, JP was completely healthy and wanted to play. Mularkey still didn't play him. That was monumentally horrible.

[Alaska Darin]

Drew had no problem with throwing the deep ball but he still faced "8 in the box".  The reason, I surmise, had nothing to do with the QB's arm strength and everything to do with our offensive line.  With a poor line, you can play 8 in the box and send a bunch of them.  They will get to the QB way before the WR's get deep enough to make a first down catch.  8 in the box isn't just a defense to stuff the run, against a bad line, it is a great defense against the pass as well.  8 in the box stops the runa and takes away the dump offs.  All it leaves are deeper routes which never happen for us because the QB doesn't have the time for those routes to develop.

739429[/snapback]

You're right and wrong. It had to do with the offensive line not being able to hold blocks for the 6-7 seconds it takes Bledsoe to read an NFL defense. I'm not saying that our OLine is the second coming of the Hogs, Madden's Raiders, or the Steeler Dynasty, but the fact is few NFL defensive coordinators are afraid Drew Bledsoe can regularly beat a blitz when you double his first option - and they are right.

[Risin]

You're right and wrong.  It had to do with the offensive line not being able to hold blocks for the 6-7 seconds it takes Bledsoe to read an NFL defense.  I'm not saying that our OLine is the second coming of the Hogs, Madden's Raiders, or the Steeler Dynasty, but the fact is few NFL defensive coordinators are afraid Drew Bledsoe can regularly beat a blitz when you double his first option - and they are right.

739467[/snapback]

 

 

Totally agree.

[ganesh]

Rich Gannon was an animal though.

739307[/snapback]

Rich Gannon also made a career because he went into the West Coast offense

where he was not required to throw the long/intermediate passes....It required

one to be a very accurate short range passer.

 

Actually, KH would have been a very ideal fit for any of the WC offense teams

[BuffOrange]

Wow!

 

No offense,  but Drew didn't see too much 8 in the box. 

 

In fact,  the way to neutralize Bledsoe was to drop everyone deep,  and make him be patient.  (Along with pushing the pocket into his face)

 

Belichick even wrote about it in his book,  basically acknowledging Drew wasn't disciplined enough to dink-and-dunk.

 

Giving Drew Bledsoe man-to-man coverage with one of his wide receivers was a death wish to defenses.  Just look at his first 8-10 games here,  once teams stopped trying to stack the box,  and let the safeties help the cornerbacks,  Drew started to fizzle.

739442[/snapback]

 

Not necessarily. If you're talking about the 2nd half of 2002 when Drew started to hit the skids after a strong start, you are right that defenses just played all cover 2 and neither Gilbride or Drew was able to adjust.

In 2003 though (his worst season), it was mostly blitz, blitz, blitz. Who can forget the Dallas game after the bye week, when they played 0 coverage on almost every play and we couldn't make them pay by making a single play downfield. Of course Moulds being hurt that year was a huge blow.

[Risin]

Not necessarily.  If you're talking about the 2nd half of 2002 when Drew started to hit the skids after a strong start, you are right that defenses just played all cover 2 and neither Gilbride or Drew was able to adjust. 

In 2003 though (his worst season), it was mostly blitz, blitz, blitz.  Who can forget the Dallas game after the bye week, when they played 0 coverage on almost every play and we couldn't make them pay by making a single play downfield.  Of course Moulds being hurt that year was a huge blow.

739485[/snapback]

 

 

I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong.

 

Blitz doesn't equal "8 in the box" though.

 

Can you confirm which it was, or both?

[Pyrite Gal]

You're right and wrong.  It had to do with the offensive line not being able to hold blocks for the 6-7 seconds it takes Bledsoe to read an NFL defense.  I'm not saying that our OLine is the second coming of the Hogs, Madden's Raiders, or the Steeler Dynasty, but the fact is few NFL defensive coordinators are afraid Drew Bledsoe can regularly beat a blitz when you double his first option - and they are right.

739467[/snapback]

 

I agree that K F&B's take on Bledsoe and the blitz is right and wrong but my analysis goes in a different direction.

 

Bledsoe saw lots of folks in the box and got sacked by the blitz in 2003 for a lot of reasons, but those reasons are taken away in a lot of cases by different playcalling that that doggedly employed by Kevin Killdrive in 2003 and better use of the tools the O has.

 

This point is seen by contrasting the O performance with Bledsoe in 2003 and the O performance with Bledsoe in 2004. There were some significant but in essence marginal for these purposes personnel differences (nore on that later) but the big difference was that Kildrive was doing the playcalling 2003 doggedly sticking with what had worked for him in 2002 even if it was not working and Tom Clements doing some great things playcalling for Bledsoe in 2004 that whileit did not make a Drew led O great (as seen in the pratfall against the Steelers) produced a far better O performance as seen in the significantly fewer sacks in 2004 and the winning streak which the O played a helpful role in creating along with a lead performance by the D (until it also had a pratfall against the Steelers and great performance by the ST (until it also had a pratfall against the Steelers).

 

Specifically, TC guided the Bills to:

 

1. Using Bledsoe as a runner more-

 

No one would mistake the statue for John Elway, but you gotta run the QB some in the NFL or opposing Ds eat you alive because LBs and blitzers have fewer duties to guard the center of the field and take loops and routes to blitz sell themselves out going for the sack. TC used Bledsoe more on the delayed draw and other QB planned runs up the center of the field. There was no danger he was gonna get a TD, but merely by the big boy stumbling forward he could log 5 yards plus on a run even if the defenders stayed at home which they did when TC demonstrated a tendency to run. Bledsoe was gonna get popped anway if he was sacked, so it was more than worth risking him getting tackled with him initiating the contact rather than him getting hit more anyway with someone teeing off on him for a sack. DBs runs under TC was probably part of the reduced sack total.

 

2. The trick plays made the D hesitate rather than selling out to blitz and actually used Bledsoe's ball handling ability.

 

Its been popular on TSW among some poster to rag on the Bills use of trick plays under MM, but these items made good use of one of the things Bledsoe did well (though again some make the rediculous claim he could do nothing right- yes he sucked big time at some stuff but also was very good at some stuff. One thing DB did well was handle the ball and his ability saved Teague while he was learning the shotgun snap many times. Bledsoe's ball handling ability also allowed him to field pitchbacks from McGahee and then hit Evans and Moulds for long passes. This threat made the safety or CB blitz a risk for a DB and again probably again contributed to a lower sack total under for DB.

 

3. In addition, WMs skills at doing a vicious stiff arm and running wide also made the blitzers not sell out to rushing into the backfield. If WM got the ball and headed wide then a rusher would simply take himself out of the play if he was beelining for DB. One of the ironies I think that happened this past season was that since TC was not forced to run WM wide to protect DB, he decided to run the newly bulked up WM between the tackles alot. I think this move was a mistake as Ds began to focus on clogging the middle once it was clear the Bills no longer had a tendency to run WM out wide. Some complain that WM must have lost speed because he did not break long gains to the outside, but since even any attempt at using the stiff arm also disappeared, what I think happened was the playcalling simply sent WM up the middle a lot more and he rarely ran outside.

 

4. TC also helped things by "simplfying" Bledsoe's ability to call audibles which I saw as meaning he took away Bledsoe's ability to audible whenever he chose. Killdrive was already to pass-happy and Bledsoe's bias and belief in his rocket arm was proably a part of Killdrive calling too many pass plays on 3rd and short and of the few runs Killdrive did call, Bledsoe woulf audible out of them and switch to a pass play that he was confident that he could thread into tight coverage. The result of this dual pass-happiness was that at one point in 2003 the Bills had done pass plays everytime on 3rd and short situations.

 

This over reliance on the pass caused opposing Ds to blitz everytime on thrid down and sometimes these became sacks. This changed under TC

 

At amy rate, I think that the sack total for Bledsoe was influenced not simply by his or the OL skills, but the play calling had an impact as well as seen in the poor and unaltered playcalling of Killdrive and the play calling of TC which was different with the above mentioned different results, Overall in 2004 Bledsoe still proved to be inadquate to lead this team to the playoffs, but any rational person should be able to see that even his inadequate 2004 was much better than his horrendous 2003. The problems were not all about Bledsoe's skills or lack thereof.

[Dibs]

The season wasn't shot after four games because of the poor quarterback play. Like I said, the season was shot after four games because Spikes, Vincent, Milloy, Williams and Villarial were hurt. That, combined with the loss of Pat Williams, made it clear to everyone the Bills weren't going to make the playoffs.

739461[/snapback]

People seem to forget Ron Edwards. Was it game 3 he was lost for the season? From memory he was meant to be on the verge of taking the next step.

Even this offseason after proving himself injury prone, he was rated as a solid starter by ESPNs Scouts Inc. Combined with a fat lazy Sam Adams, it's no wonder at all we could not stop the run.

[TigerJ]

I am coming to the conclusion that in fact Losman gives the Bills the best chance to win now, not just in the future, based on performance in training camp. Anyone arguing that Holcopmb gives the best chance to win has to ignore what's happening in training camp and base his/her opinion entirely on last year and the fact that Holcomb is more experienced. Losman is the better QB in traing camp.

[TigerJ]

You can if the QB can run. They did that against Drew because they knew he was statuesque. And that he had a history of being flustered when rushed up the middle. They also did that mostly against Drew when Moulds was hurt, a lot more in 2003 than 2002, because no Bills receiver could get open.

739437[/snapback]

 

In addition, Bledsoe is remarkably slow at making his reads, and was in the most complex (for receivers and QB) offensive system in the NFL. With poor blocking, his protection was breaking down before Bledsoe could decide what to do. RJ had something of the same problem, though in a different offence.

[Rippedcity]

Perhaps Holcomb gave the Bills the best opportunity to win last season. Just ask yourself one question: Is Holcomb the long term answer for a team that hasn't tasted the playoffs since the Music City Miracle??

 

The Bills brass, all be it under the Donahoe era, invested alot into JP Losman in hopes that they would find a franchise QB. Unfortunately, JP lost the majority of his rookie season to injury, making last season the perfect opportunity to see what you had in Losman.

 

One thing we do know is Mike Mularkey has no "marbles", so he dicided to go with the safer pick in Holcomb to save his own ass. The injuries to Parrish and Everett early in the OTA's and Training Camp didn't help the offense or JP's success last season either.

 

This season the Bills have added weapons at the receiver and tight end positions, plus an offensive coordinator that is going to use Willis as an every down back.

 

Hey Mularkey did you ever watch Willis play at the "U", I guess not.

 

Let's see what we have in Losman.......after this season we will hopefully know if we have a potential franchise QB or if we need to move in another direction. We already know what we have in Holcomb "a journey man and career backup" but now is the time to see what we have in JP.

[obie_wan]

You can if the QB can run. They did that against Drew because they knew he was statuesque. And that he had a history of being flustered when rushed up the middle. They also did that mostly against Drew when Moulds was hurt, a lot more in 2003 than 2002, because no Bills receiver could get open.

739437[/snapback]

 

they also did it against Drew because his decision making was so dam slow.

 

It took him forever to release the ball.

[#1TN Bills Fan]

I dont understand the thinking that states we have no chance of winning with Losman or we are relegated to being a 4-12 team with Losman as the starter.  The guy has been in the league for more then 2 years.  People need to stop with the excuses.  I personally think Losman could have a decent year(somewhere in the vicinity of 3,000 yrds, 20tds/10 ints) & could lead this team anywhere from 7-11 wins.  This team has talent, it is all about putting the talent in a position to make plays & win games.

738430[/snapback]

I think it would be more realistic to expect about 2,000 yards and 15TD and 15 Int. I mean, let's face it. Our offensive line still has huge question marks. Still, IMO, that can be deemed a successful year for Losman. I'm a huge Losman supporter, and I actually think he gives us a better chance to win than Holcomb. Teams will start figuring out that Holcomb can't throw accurately anything over 20 yards, so teams will just play with 10 men in the box, which will kill the running game. Also, what's the use of having speed at WR when they only have to run a 10 yard pass route???

[Mickey]

I am coming to the conclusion that in fact Losman gives the Bills the best chance to win now, not just in the future, based on performance in training camp.  Anyone arguing that Holcopmb gives the best chance to win has to ignore what's happening in training camp and base his/her opinion entirely on last year and the fact that Holcomb is more experienced.  Losman is the better QB in traing camp.

739697[/snapback]

Playing devil's advocate, anyone who thinks JP gives us the best chance to win has to ignore what happened last year or come up with a bag full of excuses for JP ranging from bad play calling to his inexperience.

 

I haven't been to camp but I have been reading all the camp reports focusing in on the descriptions of the performance of the two QB's. Until recently, it looked like a dead heat. From what I have read though, JP has been playing better this week and at the end of last week. If those observations are correct and I have no reason to doubt them, it looks like JP not only has more potential than KH but is outperforming him in camp right now.

 

Advantage JP. It should be exciting watching him develop. I think he will be the better for having won the job in camp in open competition rather than being handed the job like he was last year.

[SnakeOiler]

It is simple, really:

 

Holcomb gives us the best chance to win 4-7 games this season and 4-7 next season.

 

JP gives us the best chance to win 3-6 games this season, and 10 games next season.