PromoTheRobot Posted August 8, 2006 Share Posted August 8, 2006 I don't see how a QB with limited throwing range gives you the best chance to win. I'd take my chances with JP or Nall before I start Holcomb. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted August 8, 2006 Share Posted August 8, 2006 It's true. It's also one of the biggest charades in all of the NFL. If coaches actually thought that, no rookie or young quarterback would hardly ever play, or would ever get better because there will almost always be a veteran back-up on your team who would give you a better chance to win that upcoming game. It's also one of the biggest falacies of the clusterfukk that was last season. As soon as they traded for Holcomb he gave them the best chance to win, simply because he'd played 8-9 years in the league and some of them as a starter. He gave them the best chance to win game one, and yet they started Losman. KH gave them the best chance in game two and three and four and yet they started Losman. Then they said we're starting Holcomb because he "gives us the best chance to win". That was always the case. In the same vein that the term "partly sunny" actually means "mostly cloudy", the "best chance to win" could also, more accurately, mean "the best chance to go nowhere". 738404[/snapback] best chance to win what? less games over the next 5 years than we should? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted August 8, 2006 Share Posted August 8, 2006 I'll sum up my feelings about Captain Dump-off very simply...he makes me wish Travis Brown was a Bill again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted August 8, 2006 Share Posted August 8, 2006 It's true. It's also one of the biggest charades in all of the NFL. If coaches actually thought that, no rookie or young quarterback would hardly ever play, or would ever get better because there will almost always be a veteran back-up on your team who would give you a better chance to win that upcoming game. It's also one of the biggest falacies of the clusterfukk that was last season. As soon as they traded for Holcomb he gave them the best chance to win, simply because he'd played 8-9 years in the league and some of them as a starter. He gave them the best chance to win game one, and yet they started Losman. KH gave them the best chance in game two and three and four and yet they started Losman. Then they said we're starting Holcomb because he "gives us the best chance to win". That was always the case. In the same vein that the term "partly sunny" actually means "mostly cloudy", the "best chance to win" could also, more accurately, mean "the best chance to go nowhere". 738404[/snapback] dog, i basically agree with you. however, the thought of rich gannon - among the best 3 qbs in the league from 1999-2002, when he was in mid-late 30s - lingers in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted August 8, 2006 Share Posted August 8, 2006 I dont understand the thinking that states we have no chance of winning with Losman or we are relegated to being a 4-12 team with Losman as the starter. The guy has been in the league for more then 2 years. People need to stop with the excuses. I personally think Losman could have a decent year(somewhere in the vicinity of 3,000 yrds, 20tds/10 ints) & could lead this team anywhere from 7-11 wins. This team has talent, it is all about putting the talent in a position to make plays & win games. 738430[/snapback] I have a sad feeling that we are a 4-12 team regardless of whether we start Holcomb or Losman. All the more reason to start JP? May be so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted August 8, 2006 Share Posted August 8, 2006 I'll sum up my feelings about Captain Dump-off very simply...he makes me wish Travis Brown was a Bill again. 738603[/snapback] Yes, I much prefer it when the QB ignores the rush, waits for the WR to get downfield and then gets sacked before he can get his arm cocked. Does anybody remember the common wisdom on the wall circa 2004? Let me remind you, it was that our defense was so good, all we needed was a QB that wouldn't screw up the defense with devastating turnovers. The offense didn't need to win the game, it just needed to keep from losing it. Exit Drew Bledsoe and enter JP Losman and Kelly Holcomb. Holcomb was to be our insurance policy in case JP didn't work out so that our expected playoff run wouldn't depend on the arm of an untested second year man who spent half the year in a cast and the other half carrying a clip board. Gettting Holcomb was hailed as a great decision because he was everything Drew wasn't. A high percentage, dump-off kind of guy who didn't give up big sacks and turnovers. Now the common wisdom has been revised in a revisionist sort of way. Last year was not a year we expected to make the playoffs. Instead it was a throw away year the coaches should have used to train Losman, winning be damned. And Holcomb, who is everything we said we wanted, is a jack ass who should be run off the roster on a rail. The first requirement to be a football fan: short memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROSCOE P. COE TRAIN Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Big Ben -- has allowed for all conventional thinking to go out re: a rookie or green QB. A good team clearly helps a QB. I liken Losman to the kid from Baltimore Boller. Stong arm, plenty of moxie and swagger. But he plays for a suspect OL and was forced to be the teams savior ala JP. JP needs to have protection, and running game and defense that gets him field position which is favorable. Easier said then done. Big Ben was trotting on the field every time with the ball at the opposition's 35 and a Ol that mauled and a RB and hines ward who were incredible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 I'll sum up my feelings about Captain Dump-off very simply...he makes me wish Travis Brown was a Bill again. 738603[/snapback] He makes me wish Billy Joe Hobert were a Bill again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Does anybody remember the common wisdom on the wall circa 2004? Let me remind you, it was that our defense was so good, all we needed was a QB that wouldn't screw up the defense with devastating turnovers. The offense didn't need to win the game, it just needed to keep from losing it. Exit Drew Bledsoe and enter JP Losman and Kelly Holcomb. Holcomb was to be our insurance policy in case JP didn't work out so that our expected playoff run wouldn't depend on the arm of an untested second year man who spent half the year in a cast and the other half carrying a clip board. Gettting Holcomb was hailed as a great decision because he was everything Drew wasn't. A high percentage, dump-off kind of guy who didn't give up big sacks and turnovers. Now the common wisdom has been revised in a revisionist sort of way. Last year was not a year we expected to make the playoffs. Instead it was a throw away year the coaches should have used to train Losman, winning be damned. And Holcomb, who is everything we said we wanted, is a jack ass who should be run off the roster on a rail. The first requirement to be a football fan: short memory. 738622[/snapback] Outstanding post. I, for one, am still glad to see Kelly Holcomb on this team. If he had been our QB in 2004, I believe we would've made the playoffs. Everyone crucified him for the last play of the Sunday night Pats game last year... not the best play by far, but for the 1st time in years the Bills were at least in position to win in New England (in prime time, yet), holding the lead for most of the game... and in comparison, that play was nowhere near as stupid or lame as throwing the ball away on 4th-down against the Eagles in 03. Do I want him starting this year? No, I'd like to see JP get the nod. Do I think KH is a great back-up? Absolutely. Will it be the end of the world if KH is the starter? No, it just makes 2006 even more of a transitional year... plus odds are he won't make it thru the whole year anyways before getting too banged up, JP will end up playing no matter what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 9, 2006 Author Share Posted August 9, 2006 Yes, I much prefer it when the QB ignores the rush, waits for the WR to get downfield and then gets sacked before he can get his arm cocked. Does anybody remember the common wisdom on the wall circa 2004? Let me remind you, it was that our defense was so good, all we needed was a QB that wouldn't screw up the defense with devastating turnovers. The offense didn't need to win the game, it just needed to keep from losing it. Exit Drew Bledsoe and enter JP Losman and Kelly Holcomb. Holcomb was to be our insurance policy in case JP didn't work out so that our expected playoff run wouldn't depend on the arm of an untested second year man who spent half the year in a cast and the other half carrying a clip board. Gettting Holcomb was hailed as a great decision because he was everything Drew wasn't. A high percentage, dump-off kind of guy who didn't give up big sacks and turnovers. Now the common wisdom has been revised in a revisionist sort of way. Last year was not a year we expected to make the playoffs. Instead it was a throw away year the coaches should have used to train Losman, winning be damned. And Holcomb, who is everything we said we wanted, is a jack ass who should be run off the roster on a rail. The first requirement to be a football fan: short memory. 738622[/snapback] Common wisdom on the wall isn't reality. Common wisdom on the wall is an oxy-moron. The reality was the Bills brass didnt adhere to that philosophy ever. They came out throwing game one, series one, play one. They never put Losman in a position of caretaker. The defense couldn't stop anyone starting in the first quarter of the second game and continued throughout the season. The line couldnt block or stay onsides for McGahee. By game four the season was over because Spikes was hurt, Milloy and Vincent were hurt, Mike Williams and Villarial were hurt, and we couldnt run or stop the run, pass or stop the pass. That is when it should have been determined that Losman needed the experience but Mularkey let the inmates run the asylum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Outstanding post. I, for one, am still glad to see Kelly Holcomb on this team. If he had been our QB in 2004, I believe we would've made the playoffs. Everyone crucified him for the last play of the Sunday Pats game last year... not the best play by far, but for the 1st time in years the Bills were at least in position to win in New England (in prime time, yet), holding the lead for most of the game... and in comparison, that play was nowhere near as stupid or lame as throwing the ball away on 4th-down against the Eagles in 03. Do I want him starting this year? No, I'd like to see JP get the nod. Do I think KH is a great back-up? Absolutely. Will it be the end of the world if KH is the starter? No, it just makes 2006 even more of a transitional year... plus odds are he won't make it thru the whole year anyways before getting too banged up, JP will end up playing no matter what. 738793[/snapback] Good post yourself. Face the facts. The whole team sucked last year. But it's not just an illusion that they played better with KH in there. He is not the sack of dog crap that a lot of people make him out to be. Let's not forget he should have led an undermanned Cleveland team on the road in Pittsburgh to a victory in the playoffs. That's a lot more than any QB in Buffalo has done in a long time. Bad QBs don't help led their teams to road victories against playoff teams (Cincy). On a team with a bad oline and defense that was among the worst, KH had a fairly good season. I don't want to come off as a KH guy. I want JP to take control of the job. But that is the key. He has to earn that job. Right now, KH is the best chance to win. And to everyone thinking the Bills will be terrible, here's a newsflash. Troy Vincent, Takeo Spikes, Dick Jauron, Jason Peters, and all the Buffalo Bills working their @sses off in Pittsford don't agree with you. They believe they can make the playoffs. And that's why they are professional athletes. So, hopefully John Paul wins the job outright and can be the long term answer. I pray he does. At the same time, I'm sick of losing and just want the Bills to win as many games as possible this year. I don't care about next year. So, I want the coaches to put the guy to help us win the most this year to play. I'm simple like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbills17 Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Good post yourself. Face the facts. The whole team sucked last year. But it's not just an illusion that they played better with KH in there. He is not the sack of dog crap that a lot of people make him out to be. Let's not forget he should have led an undermanned Cleveland team on the road in Pittsburgh to a victory in the playoffs. That's a lot more than any QB in Buffalo has done in a long time. Bad QBs don't help led their teams to road victories against playoff teams (Cincy). On a team with a bad oline and defense that was among the worst, KH had a fairly good season. I don't want to come off as a KH guy. I want JP to take control of the job. But that is the key. He has to earn that job. Right now, KH is the best chance to win. And to everyone thinking the Bills will be terrible, here's a newsflash. Troy Vincent, Takeo Spikes, Dick Jauron, Jason Peters, and all the Buffalo Bills working their @sses off in Pittsford don't agree with you. They believe they can make the playoffs. And that's why they are professional athletes. So, hopefully John Paul wins the job outright and can be the long term answer. I pray he does. At the same time, I'm sick of losing and just want the Bills to win as many games as possible this year. I don't care about next year. So, I want the coaches to put the guy to help us win the most this year to play. I'm simple like that. 738803[/snapback] Thank you. One person on this board declares that KH is a 'dump-off king' and has a 'noodle arm' and everyone else jumps on board. The vast majority here said KH had no chance of making this team let alone being the starter before the pre-season! All the BS about his arm, is just that, BS. People making rationalisations that we'd be DOOMED with KH because he can't throw a deep ball and all the safeties will be playing 2 yards off the ball. Give it a rest people, geez. Do you know how ridiculous you are? KH may not have the arm of JP, but he can get the ball downfield just fine. Did any of you actually watch the games last year, particularly live?? Eric Moulds (sorry, he _was_ a great Bill), rarely ever had any separation deep, ever. Whether that was effort related, or declinign speed, every game I saw (3 live, every one on TV), he would rarely get a step on anyone, let alone get open deep! The fact of the matter is, most of the crap about KH on this board is absolute trash. He put us in position to beat the Pats on the road. He beat Cincy on the road. He played very well last year, JP was terrible most games, and KH gets nothing but insults? You people need to open your eyes and actually watch the games. If you did that, you'd realize why all the Bills (last season and this season) want KH as their QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ1 Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Sorry,not buying it. I watched KH closely at practice this year and the his long ball is either innaccurate or a floater. He's capable of completing a long pass only when a defender falls down. KH qbing will get you 8 in the box all day long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROSCOE P. COE TRAIN Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 [quote=flea17,Aug 8 2006, 11:22 PM KH made his suspect name with the Brown by launching bombs to guys like Andre Davis and Northcutt 60 yards down field late in th e4th Q of games when they were down by 30 and the other teams had their 3rd stringers in there. The guy has never shown the moxie to carry a team. JP has the tools, the pedigree and the heart for the job. He will be under center come September and will win us 6 games with Lindell winning two of them an losing two of them with his foot late in teh 4th Q. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayFinkle Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Thank you. One person on this board declares that KH is a 'dump-off king' and has a 'noodle arm' and everyone else jumps on board...KH may not have the arm of JP, but he can get the ball downfield just fine. Did any of you actually watch the games last year, particularly live?? but, but, but...4th and 7! Flight Suit! Haliburton! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 In the same vein that the term "partly sunny" actually means "mostly cloudy", the "best chance to win" could also, more accurately, mean "the best chance to go nowhere". 738404[/snapback] Generally speaking, rowboats are more reliable than speedboats. But who the hell what's to show off their sexy sleek new rowboat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Common wisdom on the wall isn't reality. Common wisdom on the wall is an oxy-moron. The reality was the Bills brass didnt adhere to that philosophy ever. They came out throwing game one, series one, play one. They never put Losman is a position of caretaker. The defense couldn't stop anyone starting in the first quarter of the second game and continued throughout the season. The line couldnt block or stay onsides for McGahee. By game four the season was over because Spikes was hurt, Milloy and Vincent were hurt, Mike Williams and Villarial were hurt, and we couldnt run or stop the run, pass or stop the pass. That is when it should have been determined that Losman needed the experience but Mularkey let the inmates run the asylum. 738801[/snapback] Fantastic post kelly....Well put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 He makes me wish Billy Joe Hobert were a Bill again. 738736[/snapback] I think thats overstating it a bit- Holcomb is a very good backup to have, and will help immensely in JP's development Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 but, but, but...4th and 7! Flight Suit! Haliburton! 738940[/snapback] I'm glad someone brought up the 4th down throw-away vs. the Eagles - I completely forgot about that (as did everyone else apparantly). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generaLee83 Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 dog, i basically agree with you. however, the thought of rich gannon - among the best 3 qbs in the league from 1999-2002, when he was in mid-late 30s - lingers in my mind. 738606[/snapback] Rich Gannon was an animal though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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